Eidolon max amount of arms and attacks with weapons?

[wickedb]

A level 5 summoner has a bi-pedal eidolon with 6 (f**king) arms, each with a light melee weapon and a bite attacks; giving him 7 attacks during a full round... at level 5. Granted he's taking negatives but the amount of rolling is getting under my skin. Plus i believe he plans on continuing this trend and making, essentially, a ball of arms.
Please help- there must be something in the books saying this wont work.

[thepuregamer]

eidolon's only have a limit on how many natural attacks they can possess. There is no such limit on weapon attacks.

Believe me, he will have a seriously difficult time later on when he cannot afford to enchant all his weapons.

Also, you can drop in some enemies with DR and the effectiveness will lower as well.

Also his bite attack should be at -5 penalty and his weapon attacks should be at a -2 penalty. So higher ac enemies will also be effective.

[Irulesmost]

While the suggestion is a good one (and makes sure it's not over-the-top broken), he is partly complaining about the actual, physical, number of rolls the player makes, slowing down combat.

While the player might enjoy 7+ attacks, this is annoying, and he intends to get more arms because he doesn't realize how suboptimal the choice will be, he believes that he gets to become an increasingly powerful blender through the whole game.

Inform him that this is a strategy that will work for another 2 levels, if even, and it may deter him. But for now, about the rolls (since he'll get a ton of attacks regardless if he opts for natural weapons) is to pre-roll all his attacks and damage, and write them on a notepad (or a digital notepad-app). This is a trust move, obviously, but if its one the GM (or you, if that's you) is willing to make, given knowledge of this player, it will speed things WAYYYY the hell up.

[thepuregamer]

well if it is just a matter of speeding up combat, then just have him roll all his attacks at once. So he takes 7 d20s and picks 1 to be his main hand and 1 to be his bite and then the issue is basically done since all or most of his weapon attacks will be at the same penalty.

Later when he gets to lvl 10, his natural attacks will also be at the same penalty to hit as his weapon attacks and thus except for magical enhancement bonuses, all his attacks will be at the same hit chance(except for later iterative attacks of the main hand).

Streamlining attack rolling should not be difficult.

[Allia Thren]

The two-weapon fighting feat only talks about fighting with two weapons, and the penalties given there only apply to fighting with two weapons as well.

I'm not sure if theres any rules on fighting with three, four or six weapons, and what the penalties for it would be.
But considering that they're -4/-8 if you don't have the feat even with a light weapon... not having a feat for the 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th arm... I can only imagine how many negatives he'd take on all those attacks.

I actually could have sworn that there was a rule that specifically stated that even with multiple arms you can't attack with more than two weapons per round, but I can't find it, so I'm not sure if it really exists.

[thepuregamer]

the feat for fighting with multiple weapons is called multiweapon fighting.

It reduces penalties in a similar manner to twf'ing.

So everything is at a -2, when fighting with 6 light weapons.

[calagnar]

Appendix 5: Monster Feats
Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters,
although some player characters might qualify for them.

Multiweapon Fighting (Combat)
This multi-armed creature is skilled at making attacks
with multiple weapons.
Prerequisites: Dex 13, three or more hands.
Benefit: Penalties for fighting with multiple weapons
are reduced by –2 with the primary hand and by –6 with
off hands.
Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty
on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty
on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one
primary hand, and all the others are off hands.) See Two-
Weapon Fighting in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook.
Special: This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting
feat for creatures with more than two arms.

Main Hand and All other hands - 4 to hit.
Main Hand and light off hand weapons - 2 to hit.

It's from the bestiary, and up to the gm if any player can take it even there pet's. I do not alow feats from the bestiary as they are monster only feats. Now if he dose not have multiweapon fighting and only hase two weapon fighting he can only ever attack with two weapons.

[thepuregamer]

calagnar wrote:

It's from the bestiary, and up to the gm if any player can take it even there pet's. I do not alow feats from the bestiary as they are monster only feats. Now if he dose not have multiweapon fighting and only hase two weapon fighting he can only ever attack with two weapons.

RAW, special permission is not required to take feats from the bestiary. DMs can house rule it if they want but, there is no special rule stating that a DM needs to give you permission to take a bestiary feat. Just like there is no special rule stating that a dm must give you permission to take weapon focus. If you qualify for a feat, you can take it.

[Jadeite]

RAW, Multi Weapon Fighting does not grant new attacks, it only lessens the penalties on the attacks a creature has. There was a similar discussion for the alchemist.

[thepuregamer]

Jadeite wrote:

RAW, Multi Weapon Fighting does not grant new attacks, it only lessens the penalties on the attacks a creature has. There was a similar discussion for the alchemist.

While multiweapon fighting(the feat) does not give you extra attacks, having more than 2 arms does.

Notice that under normal, it says
"Normal: A creature without this feat takes a –6 penalty
on attacks made with its primary hand and a –10 penalty
on attacks made with all of its off hands. (It has one
primary hand, and all the others are off hands.)"
So even without this feat, a character with multiple arms gets attacks with all of its off hands. With the feat, your penalty is reduced.

Alchemists with a vestigial arm are a seperate case because the vestigial arm ability specifically states that you do not gain extra attacks with the arm and that you still use two weapon fighting when using the extra arm.

[Kaisoku]

This had been discussed during the Beta. 5th level is the peak for the Eidolon going the multi-weapon route.

Even then, the Fighter has a higher chance to hit and more damage from his single attack, and a lot more feats/abilities boosting that attack. So in a "Damage per round" sense, it's hard to say who really will shine.

Once magic weapons are assumed, and the Fighter starts getting multiple attacks in on his own, this method is good for nothing but rolling tons of dice.

Actually getting that full attack is far better, and weapon attacks aren't gained with Pounce (*edit* scratch that, they are, according to rereading the Eidolon entry), so a quadraped with as many natural attacks as possible, all pimped out with damage boosting effects (like energy damage, etc), has a lot more staying power.
A lot less costly too.. a single Amulet of Might Fists gives a major boost to everything. Hello Holy Amulet (no +1 base enhancement needed!).

*Edit* Pounce + weapons would work. It requires a specific setup that would neuter a bit of the attack/damage though (quadraped has only 14 starting strength, and no "free" starting hands), but it would be "doable".
The weapons keeping up with the curve (especially on a delayed HD creature) is what will hurt this concept the worst though.

[roguerouge]

Have to be a quadreped to get pounce, though.

[Kaisoku]

Yeah, I mentioned that in my edit.

I'm imagining a ball of tentacles or arms whipping around on a four-legged body... eidolons are flipping weird.

[wickedb]

Yea... He asked me what the things height or weight is... I have no freaking idea. Whatever he wants I suppose.
I have a decent imagination but these things hurt my brain.
So much so, I told him he shouldn't bring it out in public, it'll scare people.

Also- thanks :) all of those great points will be brought up to him.

[Bishop666]

If he gets access to to the "Advanced Feats - The Summoner's Circle" supplement your going to have to get ALOT more dice!

I have two players running builds from it(Chess Master and the The Master of Arms one)and things get...INTrEStIng some times I will tell you.
The Master of arms build lets you basically build a Marilith of your very own,and going by the rules you can end up with a total of FORTY-THREE attacks...3 main hand,7 natural and thirty-three secondary attacks.

If it ever gets that bad for me I'm going to dig out the old "Killer DM" monster :)