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I have a few questions regarding making magic items:
1. You can ignore certain requirements for an increased DC, but can you ignore the CL requirement?
2. If no, on items such as the cloak of resistance states it's a CL5 item. However in the requirements it says that the caster must have a CL of 3 * the enchantment bonus, thus a +2 would be CL 6 and a +3 would be CL 9. Is this a hard requirement(provided you couldn't just ignore the CL for a higher DC)
3. It says you can use spells from magic items to meet a requirement. I remember in 3.5 it stated you needed to cast the spell for every day you were making it, though I've found none of that in Pathfinder. So, can you use a scroll to make a magic item? And will you expand that scroll upon completion?
Gentleman wrote: I have a few questions regarding making magic items:
1. You can ignore certain requirements for an increased DC, but can you ignore the CL requirement?
Im not 100% but I would have assumed not
Quote: 2. If no, on items such as the cloak of resistance states it's a CL5 item. However in the requirements it says that the caster must have a CL of 3 * the enchantment bonus, thus a +2 would be CL 6 and a +3 would be CL 9. Is this a hard requirement(provided you couldn't just ignore the CL for a higher DC) You're confusing the item's CL and the crafter's CL, the Cloak of Resistance has a CL of 5 which basically states how powerful it is but it's the crafter who needs to have a CL of 3x the bonus
Quote: 3. It says you can use spells from magic items to meet a requirement. I remember in 3.5 it stated you needed to cast the spell for every day you were making it, though I've found none of that in Pathfinder. So, can you use a scroll to make a magic item? And will you expand that scroll upon completion? The spells get expended when you use them so certainly using a scroll would use up the scroll. Id have to double check the exact wording but I believe you have to cast the spell every day you're creating it too
Edit: Checking the Craft Magical Arms and Armor section it says Quote: If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the armor, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material components or focuses the spells require. The act of working on the armor triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the armor's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.) So yes it does expend the spells every day you're crafting
Banjax wrote:
You're confusing the item's CL and the crafter's CL, the Cloak of Resistance has a CL of 5 which basically states how powerful it is but it's the crafter who needs to have a CL of 3x the bonus
Wait, now I'm really confused. Each item has a CL, which I know is used to determined the identify DC of it, as well as the DC for item creation. But this CL is not a requirement for the caster to have?
So for the cloak of Resistance, for a +1 bonus you would only required a crafter CL of 3, even as the CL of the cloak of resistance item is 5? Some items doesn't even have much of a requirement, a Belt of Giants Strength has a CL of 8, but the only requirement is bulls strength and no caster CL . So you could technically make a +6 belt at level 3 since a spellcraft DC of 13 isn't very hard to beat, provided you have the money for it.
Magic weapons and armors only add to the confusion, as they state that you take the highest of either the enhancement bonus * 3 or the specific enhancements required CL. But none of them have requirements, for Flaming example it only says: Moderate Evocation, CL 10th, Craft Magic Arms & Armour and Flameblade, Flamestrike, or Fireball. Is the CL10th a requirement, or just the items CL?
No, a +6 belt would require the caster to have a Caster Level of 18, because that's a +6 Enhancement Bonus to the stat, and the creator must have a Caster Level three times the enhancement bonus to create it. That much I know for certain.
To quote the book in regards to the Cloak of Resisance:
Construction Requirements
Craft Wondrous Item, resistance, creator's caster level must be at least three times the cloak's bonus; Cost 500 gp (+1), 2,000 gp (+2), 4,500 gp (+3), 8,000 gp (+4), 12,500 gp (+5)
Gentleman wrote: Banjax wrote:
You're confusing the item's CL and the crafter's CL, the Cloak of Resistance has a CL of 5 which basically states how powerful it is but it's the crafter who needs to have a CL of 3x the bonus
Wait, now I'm really confused. Each item has a CL, which I know is used to determined the identify DC of it, as well as the DC for item creation. But this CL is not a requirement for the caster to have?
So for the cloak of Resistance, for a +1 bonus you would only required a crafter CL of 3, even as the CL of the cloak of resistance item is 5? Some items doesn't even have much of a requirement, a Belt of Giants Strength has a CL of 8, but the only requirement is bulls strength and no caster CL . So you could technically make a +6 belt at level 3 since a spellcraft DC of 13 isn't very hard to beat, provided you have the money for it.
Magic weapons and armors only add to the confusion, as they state that you take the highest of either the enhancement bonus * 3 or the specific enhancements required CL. But none of them have requirements, for Flaming example it only says: Moderate Evocation, CL 10th, Craft Magic Arms & Armour and Flameblade, Flamestrike, or Fireball. Is the CL10th a requirement, or just the items CL? There are 2 different CLs here and many players are mixing them.
Somewhere the good Jacobs has clarified this (search for the pearls of power-question).
Each magical item has a CL (dermining the minimum CL it has) and sometimes there is a CL required from the creator.
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Lets have some examples: we create some items (a cloak of resistance +3 and a longsword +4) with differnent charakters (a CL 6 creator and a CL 10 creator):
CL6 creator trys on the cloak of resistance and his spellcraft-check DC is 13 [5 (basis) + 3 (the item CL) + 5 (because we are missing the "creator is at least 3*bonus"-requirement)] now he can increase the DC via increasing the item-CL - if he wants to give the cloak a higher save...
and the CL6 creator creates the longsword +4 with the spellcraft DC of 17 [5 (basis) + 12 (item CL)] ... here we can increase the item-CL the same way as above.
Now our CL 10 creator: He can make the cloak with a DC of 8 (if he meets all other req. and not increasing the item-CL) and the longsword with a DC 17 (same here).
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One special thing are the weapon speacial abilities: They have a own min-CL. so if your special ability has a CL 8 and you want to create a <special ability> weapon +2 or a <special ability> weapon +3 the item-CLs are maximum of both CLs.
weapon +2 (at least CL 6) and special ability (at least CL 8) means the item has to be at least CL 8 [means at least a spellcraft-DC 13 if you meet all requirements and not increasing the item-CL any further]
weapon +3 (at least CL 9) and special ability (at least CL 8) means the item has to be at least CL 9 [means at least a spellcraft-DC 14 if you meet all requirements and not increasing the item-CL any further]
hope that helps and because I'm in a hurry and without a rulebook there just a few mistakes ;)
Gentleman wrote: Banjax wrote:
You're confusing the item's CL and the crafter's CL, the Cloak of Resistance has a CL of 5 which basically states how powerful it is but it's the crafter who needs to have a CL of 3x the bonus
Wait, now I'm really confused. Each item has a CL, which I know is used to determined the identify DC of it, as well as the DC for item creation. But this CL is not a requirement for the caster to have?
So for the cloak of Resistance, for a +1 bonus you would only required a crafter CL of 3, even as the CL of the cloak of resistance item is 5? Some items doesn't even have much of a requirement, a Belt of Giants Strength has a CL of 8, but the only requirement is bulls strength and no caster CL . So you could technically make a +6 belt at level 3 since a spellcraft DC of 13 isn't very hard to beat, provided you have the money for it.
Magic weapons and armors only add to the confusion, as they state that you take the highest of either the enhancement bonus * 3 or the specific enhancements required CL. But none of them have requirements, for Flaming example it only says: Moderate Evocation, CL 10th, Craft Magic Arms & Armour and Flameblade, Flamestrike, or Fireball. Is the CL10th a requirement, or just the items CL? Yeah. The rules are confusing... And not very clear, nor very well written and in some cases they contradicts themselves... If not, why so much questions? (search in archives and you will see...).
Think create a magic item is "an art"...
The CL crafter does no longer need to be of the CL "standard" item (as written in rulebook) -see errata.
The CL "standard" object is used for the DC spellcraft to create, sometimes for cost (wand, scroll) and level-dependent variables of the item (as ring of invisibility CL3, that you must activate every 3mn).
In the rules (sic!), you may create an item at a lower CL if this CL is no lower than the CL required to cast the spell(s) in the requirements.
Ex: Belt of Giant Strenght +6
Crafter: a wizard Lvl 3 who has not the spell Bull's strenght.
penalty on check spellcraft
- crafter has the CL to cast Bull's strenght: no penalty
- crafter has not the spell Bull' s strenght: penalty +5 to DC spellcraft
- crafter will fix CL item at CL 3: no penalty
DC spellcraft to create = 5 +(CL item) 3 +(penalties) 5= 13
BUT (it will not be funny without a "BUT") the crafter may take a penalty to emulate the requirement "min CL item must be the CL to cast the spells in requirements" and so for the ex before, he may create a Belt CL 1 (or 2) with a DC spellcraft of 11 (CL item 1) +5= 16.
It is not very clear on the max CL item: Is the max CL item the CL standard as written in the rulebook? or the CL crafter?
What happens when CL crafter is below CL standard item? some penalties???
I use a homerule to be simple: max CL item = CL crafter.
Mandatory for creation:
1) crafter must have the feat of creation
2) for spell trigger (wand, staff,...), completion (scroll) and potion, the crafter must meet the spell requirement (i.e must know the spell). BUT the crafter may emulate this with an object (scroll, wand, other) or another spellcaster who knows the spell required (this spellcaster have to participate in creation during ALL the time needed. The spell required will be cast 1 time for each day of creation. (exception: staff MUST be CL 8 min)
3) For armor (& shield) and weapons, the CL crafter must be at least 3 x bonus enhancement of the item (crafter must be CL 12 to make a sword +4 for instance).
Devs have said this is a mandatory for other items which offers the same "benefits" as amulet of natural armor or mighty fist.
To be simple, i use a homerule as "general agreement": CL crafter must be 3 x bonus of Attack/dmg, AC or save (except for bracers of armor, it must be 2 x bonus). As the 3 play on the power of the PC.
So, to make a cloak of resistance +3, the crafter have to be CL 9.
All the other requirements may be emulated by taking a penalty of +5 DC spellcraft (for EACH requirement not satisfied):
- crafter has not the CL to cast the spell in requirement (for each spells)
- crafter doesn't know the spell
- CL item is below the CL min to cast the spells required (for each spells)
- crafter has not the level required (see Ioun stone for instance)
- crafter has not the race requirement (see cloack of elvenkind)
- crafter has not the morality requirement
- crafter has not the feat requirement (that is not a feat of creation)
- etc...
Ex: a longsword +2 flaming burst, holy
Mandatory: crafter must have the feat Craft Magic Arms & Armor and must be CL min 6 (because of +2 bonus).
Creator: clerc LE of Asmodeus Lvl 6 who have the feat of creation. He create this item at CL6.
the penalties... the crafter
- has the CL to cast Flame blade, Flame strike or fireball: no penalty
- has not the spell Flame blade, Flame strike or fireball: +5 DC
- the CL item 6 is enough to cast Flame blade, Flame strike or fireball: no penalty
- has not the CL to cast Holy smite: +5 DC
- has not the spell Holy smite: +5 DC
- the CL item 6 is not enough to cast Holy smite: +5 DC
- is not "Good": +5 DC
DC spellcraft to create: 5 +(CL item) 6 +(penalties)25 = DC 36
If he want to speed up the creation, the creator may take another penalty of +5 DC.
Oh i forget. If my clerc of Asmodeus find another spellcaster who will cast the spells, he could emulate "meeting the spell requirement".
You can emulate all the penalties by use of an item or cooperation (except mandatory of course).
Ex 2: always the longsword +2 flaming burst, holy
Mandatory: crafter must have the feat Craft Magic Arms & Armor and must be CL min 6 (because of +2 bonus).
Creator: clerc LE of Asmodeus Lvl 6 who have the feat of creation. He create this item at CL6. (he is lvl 6 so cannot more...).
Help to emulate: our clerc has succeeded to "convince" a clerc LG of Abbadar Lvl 9 of "helping him" during the 73 days of creation.
the penalties... the crafter
- emulate the CL to cast Flame strike: no penalty
- emulate "has the spell Flame strike": no penalty
- the CL item 6 is enough to cast Flame blade, Flame strike or fireball: no penalty
- emulate the CL to cast Holy smite: no penalty
- emulate "has the spell Holy smite": no penalty
- the CL item 6 is not enough to cast Holy smite: +5 DC
- emulate "is "Good"": no penalty
DC spellcraft to create: 5 +(CL item) 6 +(penalties) 5 = DC 16
If he want to speed up the creation, the creator may take another penalty of +5 DC.
No wonder there's a thriving rules forum the explinations are as complicated as the original rules.
(And evidently I've been working under some misunderstandings of my own)
So just to get things straight in my own mind...
The base DC of an item is 5 + the item's CL.
For every pre-requisite the crafter doesn't have it increases by 5.
Every pre-requisite can be skipped except the item creation feat.
When adding a special ability to a weapon or item the CL is the higher of either the spell the item is going to duplicate or the base CL of the item.
So lets use the Cloak of Resistance + 2 example again
Cloak of Resistance + 2
(Item) Caster Level 5
Requires Craft Wondrous Item, Resistance (the spell), crfter caster level must be 3x the cloak's bonus
If the crafter is a level 5 wizard it will be a DC of 15
5 base + 5 iCL + 5 from not being level 6 (3x the +2 bonus)
Say we swap it to a level 5 Sorcerer who doesn't have the resistance spell the DC jumps up to 20 as that's an extra pre-requisite that he doesn't have, unless he gets somebody else to provide the spell in which case it becomes 15 again.
The bit that confuses me is the section thats says
Quote: A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than
her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to
cast the needed spell
so in Defraeter's example above of the Belt of Giant Strength + 6 he lowers the item CL from 8 to 3...what effect does that have on the item itself? Since lowering the item CL lowers the DC of the crafting why would anybody craft anything at its default CL when they can drop it down to the minimum level of the spells required?
Banjax wrote: ...The base DC of an item is 5 + the item's CL.
For every pre-requisite the crafter doesn't have it increases by 5.
Every pre-requisite can be skipped except the item creation feat.
When adding a special ability to a weapon or item the CL is the higher of either the spell the item is going to duplicate or the base CL of the item.
Not exactly.
Devs have said... you must believe me, i'm afraid of that, because there are too many posts under the forum... there are 3 mandatories that you cannot skip.
1) creation feat
2) "meeting spell requirements" (which can be replaced by use of an item or cooperation) for spell-trigger, completion and potion
3) min CL crafter/creation = 3 x bonus enhancement Att/dmg and armor/shield bonus.
Note: for the point 3), devs have extended to wondrous item and enhancement bonus (armor nat, etc...).
Note 2: by houserule or general agreement, you can extend to all bonuses which concern Att/dmg, AC or save.
Banjax wrote: So lets use the Cloak of Resistance + 2 example again
Cloak of Resistance + 2
(Item) Caster Level 5
Requires Craft Wondrous Item, Resistance (the spell), crfter caster level must be 3x the cloak's bonus
If the crafter is a level 5 wizard it will be a DC of 15
5 base + 5 iCL + 5 from not being level 6 (3x the +2 bonus)
You'r right. But if you don't want your PC have a cloak of resistance +5 at level 7 (so a "big" item for a low level), you will use
the "general agreement".
Banjax wrote: The bit that confuses me is the section thats says
Quote: A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than
her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to
cast the needed spell
If it was the only one...
Banjax wrote: so in Defraeter's example above of the Belt of Giant Strength + 6 he lowers the item CL from 8 to 3...what effect does that have on the item itself? Since lowering the item CL lowers the DC of the crafting why would anybody craft anything at its default CL when they can drop it down to the minimum level of the spells required? Good question.
1) CL item & save of the item
Save of an item is = 2 +(1/2x iCL -rounded down) -p216
So CL 1 => save is 2 +(1/2 x1 -rounded down)= +2
CL 10 => save is +7
When a PC fails a save on a natural 1 against a magic attack which can harm object, an object must make a save with its own save -p217.
A low CL has an increased chance to be destroyed than a high one...
2) CL item & spell which affect item or disjunction
an item in a creature's possession must use its save or the will save of its possessor. And everyone has not a good will save...
3) CL item & dispel magic
dispel magic against an object: the DC is = 11 + CL item. The magic item is suppressed for 1d4 rounds and it become a normal item.
Easiest if CL is low.
Think to a dispel against an magic item like a sword followed by a sunder or a shatter spell...
4) CL item & level-dependent variable
some items have their powers dependent of the CL of the item, like wand, potion, ring of blinking, etc... all items which have spell effects.
ex: horn of blasting, greater, CL standard item 16
"...Crystalline objects take 16d6 points of sonic damage..."
Do you think your horn will do 16d if the CL is lower than 16?
Your DM should adjust variable like damage or time of use with the CL of item if it is lower than the standard one.
No "special rules", just use reason.
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