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The concept of take 10 is simple enough to understand, I find: in non-strenuous situations you fall back to basics and produce an average result, to avoid the risk of failure but also of great success.
But which skills can you take 10 with? And which skills can't you? Though I am an awful searcher, I can't find any information on if there are any skills in which you are unable to take 10 - the rules on take 20 are quite clear, but from the skill description they are not the same - one is habit, the other is continuous effort for the best result.
Can anybody help?
You can take 10 in any skill unless the Skill says other wise in the description. I believe Use Magic Device is a good example:
"Special: You cannot take 10 with this skill. You can't aid another on Use Magic Device checks. Only the user of the item may attempt such a check."
Yeah, you can take 10 with any skill that doesn't specify otherwise.
Taking 20 is a lot less broad.
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Some are debatable, with nothing explicit in the description, but certain class skills imply that they are excluded form take 10. I specifically refer to knowledge checks. Many have said you can take 10 in it, but if this were so, much of the bard's Lore Master ability would be useless, other than the 1/day take 20.
Lore Master (Ex): At 5th level, the bard becomes a master of lore and can take 10 on any Knowledge skill check that he has ranks in. A bard can choose not to take 10 and can instead roll normally. In addition, once per day, the bard can take 20 on any Knowledge skill check as a standard action. He can use this ability one additional time per day for every six levels he possesses beyond 5th, to a maximum of three times per day at 17th level.
Below is the chart I made for the PBP games I am running.
Formatting will be terrible... lol
Skill Take 10 / Take 20
Acrobatics (Jump): Yes/No
Acrobatics (Tumble) : No/No
Appraise: Yes (1 minute)/Yes(10 minutes)
Bluff: No/No
Climb: Yes/No
Craft: Yes/No
Diplomacy: No/No
Disable Device*: Yes (1 minute)/Yes(10 minutes) (Locks only,” No/No” for traps)
*Rolls to disable traps and Sabotage are rolled in secret by GM, roll declared by player
Disguise: Special (This roll is made secretly by GM only, roll declared by player)
Escape Artist: Situational
Fly: Yes/No
Handle Animal: Yes (except for rearing a wild animal)/No
Heal: Yes/No
Intimidate: No/No
Knowledge (any): No/No
Linguistics: Special (This roll is made secretly by GM only, roll declared by player)
Perception (spot, free action): No*/No
*Passive Perception: PCs are assumed taking 10’s when travelling as their general attentiveness
Perception (Search): Yes (1 minute)/Yes (2 minute per 5 ft square)
Perform: Yes/No
Profession: Yes/No
Ride: Yes/No
Sense Motive: Yes/No
Sleight of Hand No/No
Spellcraft: No/No
Stealth: Yes/No
Survival Yes/No
Swim Yes/No
Use Magic Device No/No
Yeah, I noticed this about Lore Master as well - so by this evidence, I will only bar Use Magic Device and Knowledge skills from take 10 checks in my current and future campaigns. Everything else makes sense to me.
Thank you all for your help.
No, Loremaster is not proof that you can't take 10 on Knowledge checks. Remember that you can't take 10 in, effectively, combat.
A sage in ensconced in depths of his library can take 10, he's not under extrem pressure.
That same sage trying to dodge a Dragon's acid breath is under threat and may have a more difficult time recalling important facts.
What Loremaster would seem to suggest more is that a Bard can take 10 on knowledge checks in combat or while similarly distracted. However that's not explicitly stated. As write it's just redundant save being able to take 20, which you normally arent allowed, and as a standard action no less.
If I'm stage performing with Acrobatics I can take 10. Unless the audience is throwing frute at me.
Again, unless you are under threat or distraction or the skill specifically says otherwise you can take 10. Thems the rules. It has been hashed out in other threads what threats mean. Generally the injury due to failure doesn't count. If your good enough not fail where's the threat?
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LOL. You are reading WAY too much into it. There is nothing implying in ANY way that the take-10 portion is a combat ability. It doesn't suggest anything of the sort. It is as straight forward as it gets as a blanket statement of allowing knowledge skills with ranks to be used as 'take 10'.
Taking 10 creates unrealistic situations of of everyone in the game world knowing every bit of basic knowledge at all times. They would know the basic government structure of every region on the planet, including ones they have never been to. They would know the basics of local wildlife, even in places they have never had access to the knowledge of. It creates a mess basically. With the fact that you can do a knowledge check up to DC10 untrained, look up what DC 10 gains. In a world of take 10 knowledge, Every sentient being on that game world knows every piece of that information about ever square inch of the world. That is what take-10 open to all on knowledge checks means. Its best to look at the big picture of what the interpretation means.
But you can play your game your way. Take your 10 if that's what makes the game fun for you.
No, Loremaster is not proof that you can't take 10 on Knowledge checks. Remember that you can't take 10 in, effectively, combat.
A sage in ensconced in depths of his library can take 10, he's not under extrem pressure.
That same sage trying to dodge a Dragon's acid breath is under threat and may have a more difficult time recalling important facts.
What Loremaster would seem to suggest more is that a Bard can take 10 on knowledge checks in combat or while similarly distracted. However that's not explicitly stated. As write it's just redundant save being able to take 20, which you normally arent allowed, and as a standard action no less.
If I'm stage performing with Acrobatics I can take 10. Unless the audience is throwing frute at me.
Again, unless you are under threat or distraction or the skill specifically says otherwise you can take 10. Thems the rules. It has been hashed out in other threads what threats mean. Generally the injury due to failure doesn't count. If your good enough not fail where's the threat?
Taking 10 creates unrealistic situations of of everyone in the game world knowing every bit of basic knowledge at all times. They would know the basic government structure of every region on the planet, including ones they have never been to. They would know the basics of local wildlife, even in places they have never had access to the knowledge of. It creates a mess basically. With the fact that you can do a knowledge check up to DC10 untrained, look up what DC 10 gains. In a world of take 10 knowledge, Every sentient being on that game world knows every piece of that information about ever square inch of the world. That is what take-10 open to all on knowledge checks means. Its best to look at the big picture of what the interpretation means.
I would disagree with that. Taking 10 on knowledge skills means that a commoner would know most of the public knowledge of his own government, i.e., who is the tax collector, who is the king, what is the tax rate, what is the process to get this common license, etc. Those would qualify as DC 10, and therefore available under the untrained portion of the knowledge description. Likewise, the names of prominent people in neighboring realms would likely be known, though little else beyond the names would likely be available. Anything beyond that would be higher than a DC 10 in most cases, so not automatically known. I could see exceptions like an alchemist in one country being quite familiar with an alchemist 2 countries away if they have a common business or guild contact, but otherwise, the details would be to sparse to make anything out of them without training. Also, remembering any details in combat would be very difficult unless trained, as the bard would be.
LOL. You are reading WAY too much into it. There is nothing implying in ANY way that the take-10 portion is a combat ability. It doesn't suggest anything of the sort. It is as straight forward as it gets as a blanket statement of allowing knowledge skills with ranks to be used as 'take 10'.
Taking 10 creates unrealistic situations of of everyone in the game world knowing every bit of basic knowledge at all times. They would know the basic government structure of every region on the planet, including ones they have never been to. They would know the basics of local wildlife, even in places they have never had access to the knowledge of. It creates a mess basically. With the fact that you can do a knowledge check up to DC10 untrained, look up what DC 10 gains. In a world of take 10 knowledge, Every sentient being on that game world knows every piece of that information about ever square inch of the world. That is what take-10 open to all on knowledge checks means. Its best to look at the big picture of what the interpretation means.
But you can play your game your way. Take your 10 if that's what makes the game fun for you.
How is taking 10 on knowlege checks unrealistic? You take 10 to identify everyday things. Everything that has a DC less than 10 IS EXPECTED FOR PEOPLE TO KNOW. That is why it is common knowledge.
I have never seen a GM set DCs so unrealistically as you have. Every GM I have ever seen has set DCs subject to what the player is familiar with. They would, therefore, only know their local governments, maybe some from adjacent countries. If you are in a foreign country, that increases the DC. If you are in an exotic place, that increases the DC. Suddenly, all those things you claim are instantly known by everyone are not.
I did not expect such a discussion to occur. Always great with more insight.
LOL. You are reading WAY too much into it. There is nothing implying in ANY way that the take-10 portion is a combat ability. It doesn't suggest anything of the sort. It is as straight forward as it gets as a blanket statement of allowing knowledge skills with ranks to be used as 'take 10'.
Taking 10 creates unrealistic situations of of everyone in the game world knowing every bit of basic knowledge at all times. They would know the basic government structure of every region on the planet, including ones they have never been to. They would know the basics of local wildlife, even in places they have never had access to the knowledge of. It creates a mess basically. With the fact that you can do a knowledge check up to DC10 untrained, look up what DC 10 gains. In a world of take 10 knowledge, Every sentient being on that game world knows every piece of that information about ever square inch of the world. That is what take-10 open to all on knowledge checks means. Its best to look at the big picture of what the interpretation means.
But you can play your game your way. Take your 10 if that's what makes the game fun for you.
How is taking 10 on knowlege checks unrealistic? You take 10 to identify everyday things. Everything that has a DC less than 10 IS EXPECTED FOR PEOPLE TO KNOW. That is why it is common knowledge.
I have never seen a GM set DCs so unrealistically as you have. Every GM I have ever seen has set DCs subject to what the player is familiar with. They would, therefore, only know their local governments, maybe some from adjacent countries. If you are in a foreign country, that increases the DC. If you are in an exotic place, that increases the DC. Suddenly, all those things you claim are instantly known by everyone are not.
The issue is that you are adding a locality element. A question of "would it be reasonable for this person to know this piece of information based on their circumstances?" and adjusting the DC accordingly. While this might be a perfectly reasonable thing to do, when talking about RAW, it is thoroughly unsupported by the text. Nowhere in the skill description does it say that the DC increases if you are identifying local customs of a locality far from your own, or a common plant common to an area you are not native to.
As written, the following things can be learned with a DC 10 knowledge check, which anyone with an INT of 10 or higher trivially succeeds on in a take-10 world:
Identify mineral, stone, or metal (dungeoneering)
Identify dangerous construction (engineering)
Identify a creature's ethnicity or accent (geography)
Know a recent or historically significant event (history)
Know local laws, rulers, and popular locations (local)
Identify a common plant or animal (nature)
Know current rulers and their symbol (nobility)
Know the names of the planes (planes)
Recognize a common deity's symbol or clergy (religion)
So over half the population (all those with 10+ Int, all those with 1 rank in relevant knowledge skill) knows all of these things, and again, RAW does not support increasing the DC according to locality and experience... that is what the check is supposed to represent. You can play it that way, but that isn't RAW.
Of course, by RAW you can also take 10 on knowledge checks. So, by RAW, everyone knows every mineral, stone, and metal in existence. Everyone can look a a building and say if it is well made or not. Everyone knows everything that happened recently and everything important that ever happened. Everyone knows every single law, local ruler, and popular location in every locality. Everyone knows every plant or animal common to any area. Everyone knows every single ruler (redundant from above) and their symbol. Everyone knows the names of every plane. Everyone knows every major religion and its iconography and can identify its clergy.
Well, not everyone, but a whole heck of a lot of the world. Of course, anyone with only a 9 int knows only 40% of that....
Pulled from farther down in the skill description:
Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions).
In the case of a commoner taking 10, local government, common local affairs in general, and regular business contacts would qualify for DC of 10, as that would be their "field of study." Basic knowledge of surrounding governments and regions would fall between 10 and 15, as such questions would range from very easy questions to basic basic questions, meaning that overall, a person would be likely to have some very basic knowledge of the spaces immediately around them, as they would likely have access to a "library" of neighbors to share information with on that topic, probably knowing names, and a few key facts. Anything beyond that would be beyond basic questions from that individual's point of view and beyond their typical "field of study," so beyond DC 15 and their ability to tap into their own knowledge or that of their neighbors.
Pulled from farther down in the skill description:
Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions).In the case of a commoner taking 10, local government, common local affairs in general, and regular business contacts would qualify for DC of 10, as that would be their "field of study." Basic knowledge of surrounding governments and regions would fall between 10 and 15, as such questions would range from very easy questions to basic basic questions, meaning that overall, a person would be likely to have some very basic knowledge of the spaces immediately around them, as they would likely have access to a "library" of neighbors to share information with on that topic, probably knowing names, and a few key facts. Anything beyond that would be beyond basic questions from that individual's point of view and beyond their typical "field of study," so beyond DC 15 and their ability to tap into their own knowledge or that of their neighbors.
For what it is worth, Sun, I agree with you that the DC of a check should increase based on the individual making it's ability to have that information. A native of a certain land (I don't know the Pathfinder setting, so let's go with the real world for these examples)... A native of the US will have a good shot at knowing that we have a bicameral legislature. That same native probably has a decent, but worse, shot at knowing that Britain also has a bicameral legislature. They have almost no chance at all, however, of knowing who the mayor of Ipswich is, or even whether or not Ipswich even has a mayor.
This is a failing more of the generality of the knowledge (local) skill, and things which are a DC 10 check for "common" plants or animals. The rule you quoted is a good guide, and the fact that it says "within your field of study" would imply that when dealing with things outside your field of study, the checks would be even higher.
None of this changes the fact, though, that by RAW, and commoner with 10 Int can take 10 and know any of those things I listed above for any location in the entire world. Increasing the check for a resident of Omaha to know the mayor of Ipswich, or a resident of Ipswich to know the mayor of Omaha, as much sense as it might make, is not included anywhere in RAW. Instead we get flat DCs for certain pieces of information.
Again, I think this is stupid and clearly not RAI, but it does seem to be RAW.
Pulled from farther down in the skill description:
Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions).In the case of a commoner taking 10, local government, common local affairs in general, and regular business contacts would qualify for DC of 10, as that would be their "field of study." Basic knowledge of surrounding governments and regions would fall between 10 and 15, as such questions would range from very easy questions to basic basic questions, meaning that overall, a person would be likely to have some very basic knowledge of the spaces immediately around them, as they would likely have access to a "library" of neighbors to share information with on that topic, probably knowing names, and a few key facts. Anything beyond that would be beyond basic questions from that individual's point of view and beyond their typical "field of study," so beyond DC 15 and their ability to tap into their own knowledge or that of their neighbors.
For what it is worth, Sun, I agree with you that the DC of a check should increase based on the individual making it's ability to have that information. A native of a certain land (I don't know the Pathfinder setting, so let's go with the real world for these examples)... A native of the US will have a good shot at knowing that we have a bicameral legislature. That same native probably has a decent, but worse, shot at knowing that Britain also has a bicameral legislature. They have almost no chance at all, however, of knowing who the mayor of Ipswich is, or even whether or not Ipswich even has a mayor.
This is a failing more of the generality of the knowledge (local) skill, and things which are a DC 10 check for "common" plants or animals. The rule you quoted is a good guide, and the fact that it says "within your field of study" would imply that when dealing with things outside your field of study, the checks would be even...
Except for the fact that he just quoted where the rule book says that you increase the DC based off of how reasonable it is to have that information.
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Strange. I always thought that knowledge checks were there for the "Would my character know this?" situation, not to act as a normal skill. You do the check once at some point and that determines what they know, but if they later find the information directly* then they just plain know it later. This is something that is completely unlike other skills because with other skills you still need to check again later for the same task.
The reason you can't take 10 on knowledge checks is because the roll does not represent effort on the character's part, it purely represents chance (how likely is it that they know this given their general aptitude in the field?). You can't mess with fate, so you can't take 10.
The reason Loremasters and such can take 10 is because they study the material they learned so thoroughly that nothing they read slips through the cracks in their memory. An eidetic memory for knowledge, so to speak.
At least, that's my take on it.
* If a character asks "Does X float?" and they fail the knowledge check then they don't know. If they later toss that thing into water and it sinks, they can thereafter answer "no, it does not float" without a check because they figured it out themselves. Or if they find a book on the subject that explicitly says that for some reason (rather than the normal "you find a book that might, get a +2" kind of situation).
StabbityDoom, I just tend to use taking 10 to describe mechanically what you did. Is it something that in my experience I would have come across? If yes, than taking 10 to shift through all my experiences is perfectly valid. I still do the same basic process you do with your last example, but assume that most such experiments have already been done in the natural course of living.
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StabbityDoom, I just tend to use taking 10 to describe mechanically what you did. Is it something that in my experience I would have come across? If yes, than taking 10 to shift through all my experiences is perfectly valid. I still do the same basic process you do with your last example, but assume that most such experiments have already been done in the natural course of living.
I also assume basic knowledge like "heavy things sink". I only demand knowledge rolls when a tidbit makes me go "Is it really safe to assume they know this?"
The example I showed was meant primarily for unusual materials that common people don't run across. If you happen to find an item made of some kind of magical material then you might not know, but if you're knowledgeable on the subject you just might. Does dust of dryness float? That'd be a tough one to answer since you could only test this in an anti-magic field.