The problem is not just the hungry ghost monk, it's overall equipment balance, especially in the mid-game levels. When the monk flurries, he can use a single weapon to do all his attacks. A normal 2 weapon fighter has to enchant two weapons, while the monk only has to pay for one. To make up for this advantage, the monk is limited to lower damage and crit weapons for the most part.
Similarly (without doing the math) this is the same reason the amulet of mighty fists is so blasted expensive. When the monk is in the 1D10 or more unarmed strike damage range, that starts to be preferrable to almost any weapon she can use. The high cost keeps weapons competitive.
Thank you for explaining more of the concerns about monks using non-monk weapons in a flurry of blows.
I have done the math, because math is fun. An eighth-level monk in a flurry of blows gets twice as many attacks as an eighth-level fighter. A monk uses nunchaku for 1d6 damage twice in contrast to a fighter using a heavy flail for 1d10 + 1 damage. To make the attack rolls match, however, let's apply a Power Attack penalty of -3 to attack rolls to the fighter, because the monk gets -2 two-weapon fighting penalty and the fighter gets a +1 weapon training bonus. Then the ranger does 1d10 + 7. The monk averages 7 damage (proportionally adjusted by his hit rate) and the fighter averages 12.5 damage (adjusted by the same proportion because I balanced their hit rates).
For unenchanted weapons, the penalty in limiting monks to monk weapons is an excessive 7 to 12.5 damage ratio compared to the fighter.
Belafon's explanation focuses on the enchantment imbalance, which is a more valid claim. Putting a +1 enchantment on the nunchaku and the heavy flail makes the damage ratio change from 7 to 12.5 to 9 to 13.5. A +2 enchantment makes the ratio rise to 11 to 14.5. A +3 enchantment gives 13 to 15.5, a +4 gives 15 to 16.5 and a +5 gives 17 to 17.5.
Strength bonuses work the same way, but the heavy flail gets 1.5 times strength bonus, so it takes much more for the monk to catch up to the ranger. +1 strength bonus gives 9 to 14. +2 strength bonus gives 11 to 15.5, +3 strength bonus gives 13 to 17, +4 strength bonus gives 15 to 18.5, and +5 strength bonus gives 17 to 20.
Or we could look at a reasonable combination of the two, such as a +3 strength bonus and a +2 enchantment yielding a damage ratio of 15 to 18.
Or if the monk used his 1d10 unarmed strike in the flurry, the damage ratio would be 11 to 12.5, and with a +2 strength bonus, he would exceed the fighter at 15 to 14.5. Okay, I can see why magic items that enhance unarmed strikes would be expensive. But I don't see why monk weapons have to be weaker than one-handed martial weapons.
As usual, it's a case of "if you want to allow it, go ahead and make up a feat." Also as usual, it seems to me to be a case of "I want the abilities of class x, but I want her to do damage iust like a strength based fighter." I won't tell anyone how they should want to play, but Paizo seems to be making an effort to keep classes somewhat distinct. (See: Why is there no feat that lets you use Dex for Damage instead of Strength?)
Is the monk supposed to be a dexterity based fighter? The numbers definitely say that the monk needs boosts to damage from strength bonuses and enchantments to perform proper melee damage with a monk weapon.
The hypothetical scimitar-flurrying Hungry Ghost Monk is also technically fulfilling the requirements for Dervish Dance, and could thus get their Dex bonus to damage while making a number of attacks as if two-weapon fighting. This would significantly strengthen the Monk by removing some of the MAD, albeit by requiring the character to suck until you take Dervish Dance, but that's typical of Dervish Dance builds. Another example of unintended consequences--your choice if you think this one is good or bad.
At that point, the monk has dropped two precious skill points into Perform: Dance, and used feat slots on Weapon Finesse, a feat to flurry with a Scimitar, possibly Weapon Focus to qualify for that feat, and Dervish Dance itself. And he's not functioning very well until he gets all of that.
Sounds fine to me.
At that point, the monk has dropped two precious skill points into Perform: Dance, and used feat slots on Weapon Finesse, a feat to flurry with a Scimitar, possibly Weapon Focus to qualify for that feat, and Dervish Dance itself. And he's not functioning very well until he gets all of that.
Sounds fine to me.
To be fair, if he works at it, he should be able to grab all of that as soon as he could normally take Dervish Dance (unless the feat to flurry requires Weapon Focus), which is level 3.
Rogue Eidolon's plan for a dexterity-based monk is interesting.
I found a description of Dervish Dance.
Dervish Dance (Combat)
Prerequisites: Dexterity 13, Weapon Finesse, Perform (dance) 2 ranks, proficient with scimitar.Benefit: When wielding a scimitar with one hand, you can use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on melee attack and damage rolls. You treat the scimitar as a one-handed piercing weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a duelist’s precise strike ability). The scimitar must be for a creature of your size. You cannot use this feat if you are carrying a weapon or shield in your off hand.
Assuming that the monk character would also be taking the Weapon Kata feat from Purple Duck Games that Tom Baumbach mentioned, that gives a requirement for Weapon Focus (scimitar) too. That is five feats or class abilities not aided by the monk's bonus feats.
A first-level 20 Dexterity human Hungry Ghost monk can start with Weapon Finesse and Martial Proficiency (scimitar). This monk will have low strength, but with the Weapon Finesse applied to his unarmed strike he can hit often. The scimitar in his other hand is useless, since Weapon Finesse does not aid it. At third level, he takes Dervish Dance, so he can take advantage of the scimitar during non-flurry attacks. At fifth level, he gets Steal Ki and takes Weapon Focus (scimitar). And he purchases a keen scimitar. Finally, at seventh level he takes Weapon Kata {scimitar) to flurry with the scimitar and has exploited the feats to gain ever-replenishing ki.
It would be one level faster to start with a level of a full-BAB class to gain Martial Proficiency as a class ability and take Weapon Finesse and Weapon Focus (scimitar) at first level. If the character starts as a Fighter, the bonus combat feat lets him be a race besides human. He cannot take Dervish Dance at first level due to the Perform (Dance) requirement. At second level he sells off his chain shirt and multiclasses to Hungry Ghost Monk. At third level he takes Dervish Dance, at fifth level he takes Weapon Kata {scimitar), and at sixth level he gains Steal Ki. This build is more practical if the character is roleplayed from first level.
Giving the monk flurry with a single weapon with a feat isn't that game breaking to me really. However the feat mentioned near the top was ludicris giving the monk access to the fighter only feats for the switch of one feat hell ill take that feat at first level and choose unarmed stike true i can flurry with it already but now i will get +4 to damage and +2 to hit with it.
Imagine a 8th level Hungry Ghost Monk using a Temple Sword. Ordinary the sword crits on 19-20, but this monk purchased a Keen Temple Sword costing 8000 gold pieces that crits on 17-20, 20% of all attacks. He ordinarily gets four attacks during a Flurry of Blows at +6/+6/+1/+1, and he spends a ki point to get a fifth attack at +6. At five attacks per run, the monk on average rolls one attack per round in the 17-20 range. If he always confirms the critical hit, he gains one ki point per turn, the same amount he is spending. He never runs out of ki. And at 11th level, he gains another attack and starts recharging ki faster than he uses it.I had to read Bobson's comment twice to realize that is what he meant.
That's exactly what I was thinking. Thanks for clarifying that.
And it would be two feats (or at least a level dip), considering you have to first be proficient before you can take the featThat would be like having a sorcerer cast divine spells, so no. Too much OP.
That's a good one.
Wait, you were serious?
With the advent of Pathfinder, there's absolutely no difference between a weapon and unarmed strike except the damage dice, weapon traits, and crit range/multiplier. Unarmed Strike has superior damage, manufactured weapons can have traits and better crit effects. That's a fair tradeoff for a feat.
Actually not, I consulted this thread because I have a concept for a monk who wants to use a weapon for which he has racial proficiency with his flurry... doesn't matter if it's a half orc who wants to use a great axe or an orc double axe, or an elf who want to use the rapier, the problem stays the same.
Actually not, I consulted this thread because I have a concept for a monk who wants to use a weapon for which he has racial proficiency with his flurry... doesn't matter if it's a half orc who wants to use a great axe or an orc double axe, or an elf who want to use the rapier, the problem stays the same.And it would be two feats (or at least a level dip), considering you have to first be proficient before you can take the featThat would be like having a sorcerer cast divine spells, so no. Too much OP.
That's a good one.
Wait, you were serious?
With the advent of Pathfinder, there's absolutely no difference between a weapon and unarmed strike except the damage dice, weapon traits, and crit range/multiplier. Unarmed Strike has superior damage, manufactured weapons can have traits and better crit effects. That's a fair tradeoff for a feat.
Wow, five year necro. Well played.
On a more serious note, the game and opinions have both evolved rather dramatically in five years, so it certainly would have been far more beneficial for you to start a new thread if you had a question about this rather than argue with a point someone made half a decade ago.