My apologies to start, I have a tendency to overexplain and end up taking the longest possible way to say things.
So, I've been looking everywhere for a way to make a swashbuckler type character work, as I plan on playing one the next time my gaming group starts a new campaign. And so far, there's nothing that really works for me. All the builds people make with Int or Cha to damage just make me think I'll be keeping up too many abilities.
The best thing I've come across was the write-up in Tome of Secrets. Essentially a fighter, giving up armor proficiencies for a flat, increasing dodge bonus, and a damage ability to make up for single handing.
But the way they went about that second part still seems wrong to me. Thrust is essentially sneak attack, which is all about taking advantage of an opponent when they can't defend properly. I don't see that as how a musketeer style fencer fights, he finds holes in his opponents defense even when they're trying. I guess that's similar mechanically, but extremely different in mindset IMO.
General consensus seems to be that critical hits and sneak attacks are nearly the same thing in most respects, but a critical happens when a fighter swinging his axe gets lucky and hits a vital spot, whereas a rogue gets a sneak attack very much on purpose, when the opportunity comes up.
That's obviously much closer to what a fencer type would be doing, so I can see why they would base his ability on it. I just think different conditions should trigger his extra damage than those a rogue looks for.
What if instead, Thrust granted extra damage dice every time the swashbuckler gets a critical hit? The Find the Mark ability shows some of his skill in finding gaps in enemy defenses, and this would show his skill in exploiting them.
Or instead, Thrust would be activated every time a hit beat's the target's AC by a sufficient amount, say 5, or maybe a scaling mechanic, like 4+number of Thrust dice?
Any feedback would be much appreciated. My thanks to anyone who took the time to read all that.
I already tried once to reply, but my internet and computer tag teamed me for certain failure. Anyway, the gist of what I said was...
Tome of Secrets Swashbuckler = No. It's watered-down and missing too many class abilities. Reworking Thrust is pointless as, no matter what, it's still basically Sneak Attack damage applied under different, yet equally met, circumstances.
Homebrewed Swashbuckler = Maybe, but still no. It's well thought out, and props to their effort. I just have a problem with "x class ability cannot be used with x feats." How often does that happen in official Paizo stuff? Probably almost never. I should be able to take whatever feats I want (and be able to use them) as long as I meet the prerequisites. It seems like a wasted effort to me to have to think of ways to exclude feats in conjunction with class abilities.
My solution: Not one you want to hear. Until Paizo gives us a solid fencer-type class or archetype (hoping for the latter in Ultimate Combat), our best current option is to go full-on Rogue (maybe mixed 4-6 levels of Duelist). Its class abilities give us lots of options to make a decent swashbuckler. Maybe not the one you want, but a decent one all the same.
I know this doesn't really help, and I apologize for that, but I do share your desire to play as this type of class.
I think a simple non restrictive flat bonus is the best way to make the swashbucker work. Using the Tome of Secrets Swashbuckler, how about this simple replacement fot Thrust:
Finesse Strike (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, when a Swashbuckler attacks with a weapon that can be used with the Weapon Finesse feat, he gains a +1 bonus on damage rolls. Every three levels thereafter (5th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th, and 20th), the bonus damage increase by +1.
You can also add the Duelist prestige class capstone ability as the 20th level Swashbuckler capstone ability, since it lacks one.
submit2me wrote: Homebrewed Swashbuckler = Maybe, but still no. It's well thought out, and props to their effort. I just have a problem with "x class ability cannot be used with x feats." How often does that happen in official Paizo stuff? Probably almost never. I should be able to take whatever feats I want (and be able to use them) as long as I meet the prerequisites. It seems like a wasted effort to me to have to think of ways to exclude feats in conjunction with class abilities. Check the second link smart guy. My version of the homebrew can use whatever feat he wants. Also, give me some time and it will have it's own archetypes.
I've decided to challenge myself with my own attempt at a homebrewed class rather than basing off published material or commenting on others work on here. Not that I'll stop my commenting :) Anyhow, when I get somewhere with it I'll throw it up here, and I'd love to hear what people think.
For now, I'll just mention some of the rough ideas that I have, and again, I'd love some feedback to help me along.
First of all, I'd go with naming the class "Fencer", "Duelist" (if that weren't taken by the PrC), or something else a little less specific. "Swashbuckler" would then be one of the build types that could be made from it, probably being the style using the buckler mentioned in the name. There could also be "Einhander" or something for the empty off hand, "Florentine" for the TWF type, "no-idea-what-you'd-call-it" for the guy who distracts and blocks with his cloak, and so on. I'll try to do some research on real fencing styles for the names and their abilities.
I'm thinking 1:1 BAB, therefore HD 10 (although in keeping with the flavor I could actually see only having a D8), with probably only REF as a good save, as much of the point will be not getting hit, not being built to take it so much. Evasion should be in there somewhere. Plenty of dodge bonus of course. I'm envisioning very similar to the monk's AC bonus, only from INT, with maybe a faster progression countered by it would be lost when flat-footed, reasoning that you can't think your way around attacks you don't see coming.
And here's the big one. I know it isn't perfect yet, but I really like the idea behind it. (Of course I do, it's my idea!) At first level, this class would get weapon finesse as a bonus feat, and this:
Fencing (Ex): A (fencer?) fights quite differently from most other melee combatants, relying on the speed of his strikes rather than the strength of his arm, and the sharpness of his blade over the weight behind it. When gaining the benefit of the weapon finesse feat, a fencer does not add his strength modifier to damage rolls. However, after a succesful attack roll, the target's AC is subtracted from the roll, and the result is added to the corresponding damage roll. Objects and creatures immune to critical hits are immune to this damage.
It's actually a pretty common mechanic in other games, but isn't used in D20 anywhere I've seen. I think it works nicely for for showing the real difference between "finesse fighters" such as fencers versus "strenth-based fighters" like, say, Vikings. I realise that something would need to be put in place to prevent a fighter from taking one level in this for the bonus damage and then also having weapon training, weapon specialization, etc., but I'm not sure how. I'm definitely opposed to capping it with the class level, that would mean very little gain compared to the loss. Maybe the whole thing could be called an alternate class like antipaladin is, since it's obviously based on a fighter, and this would imply that a character is either this class or regular fighter, and can't multiclass the two.
So, thoughts?
I would cap that extra damage somehow... but it's a nice idea ^^
Does it need to be capped? As the only thing being added to damage, I don't think this will out-do two-handed fighter damage, certainly not a paladin smite, but would likely be better than a sword and shield fighter. That's my intention anyway, I'll admit I haven't gone over the numbers extensively, as the rest of the class isn't fleshed out yet.
This class could possibly instead use another idea I've suggested. Give it sneak attack, at the same progression as a rogue, but it's triggered by critical hits, not unaware or flanked opponents. As far as I can tell the whole reason weapon finesse exists is for rogues, they can focus on dex instead of str and still be alright since they've got sneak attack damage. Trying it with a fighter or similar really doesn't work because it's too MAD. This could show using precision damage without being sneaky, just being good at putting hits where it hurts.
In any case, thanks for posting :)
I'm less worried about it outdoing a fighter's damage and more about the following scenario...
- a level 15 swashbuckler stabs a commoner. He gets a 35 or something on his attack roll. The commoner has an AC in the 9-11 range, so the swashbuckler deals an extra 24 damage. That's not "too much damage" -- but it doesn't make sense for you to be doing extra damage based on your attack roll, past a certain point, imho.
(Also, as you've written it, you can still benefit from power attack, weapon specialization, etc.; and unless you cap it based on swashbuckler level a fighter or rogue could make a one-level dip into the class to upgrade their weapon finesse fighting tremendously forever.)
I don't know that the extra damage vs. the commoner issue makes any less sense than your basic two-hander fighter hitting one for as much or more damage. What are 15th level melee characters doing hitting a commoner anyway? :)
Power attack wouldn't mean much, since taking the penalty would end up coming out of the net damage, so it would become -1/+1. But I suppose the wording could change from "does not add his strength modifier" to "is considered to have a strength of 10 if higher" or something like that, so that a lot of the overpowered combinations don't work. As for the multiclass "dipping", I thought calling it a type of fighter so that you can't be another would work, but you're right that a rogue would do it too.
Well damn, it didn't take long to shoot a hole in that, did it? I really don't like the idea of capping with level, it might as well just be "add level to damage rolls" like what magnuskn wrote. Not that there's anything wrong with going that route, I'm just trying to do something different.
I feel a little like I'm grasping at straws, but how about a cap of class level times intelligence modifier? Most attempts at this style of character include intelligence as a factor to bonus damage. This would make "dipping" not so viable, although even multiclassing would still work well. Hmm....
Ok, so for now, I'll go back to the "crit-not-sneak" attack dice plan. As always, thanks for input.
A high-int rogue (those exist right?) could still dip 1 level to get several bonus damage with the cap you propose. I dunno. Maybe just don't make it a first-level ability.
Quote: I don't know that the extra damage vs. the commoner issue makes any less sense than your basic two-hander fighter hitting one for as much or more damage. What are 15th level melee characters doing hitting a commoner anyway? :) Haha, yeah, it's an absurd scenario but the 2H fighter is doing the same damage as always for the same reasons he normally does that damage (strength, training, etc.), whereas the swashbuckler suddenly does way more damage against the commoner because the commoner doesn't have armor? Just feels weird to me.
Anyway... good luck :)
Jolly Blackburn created a prestige class called the Professional that might be a bit close to what you're looking for. The idea was that it did extra precision damage depending on how much over the AC of the target it hit, it also sacrificed iterative attacks for even more precision damage.
Very duelist, very swashbuckler style
Flak wrote: Haha, yeah, it's an absurd scenario but the 2H fighter is doing the same damage as always for the same reasons he normally does that damage (strength, training, etc.), whereas the swashbuckler suddenly does way more damage against the commoner because the commoner doesn't have armor? Just feels weird to me. Yeah, I guess I can see your point. It makes me think maybe a sensible cap would be tying it to the target's HD somehow. A rapier in the eye is relatively as debilitating to a giant as it is to a farmer, so the potential damage done should be a similar portion of the target creature's overall health. So, say the cap is 5 per HD, either as a flat number or its the Fencer's Int modifier. Now, in the scenario you suggested, even being 24 above his AC, it's only 5 more damage. Which still probably makes him very dead. Then again, a CR 15 monster, appropriate to the character, such as a neothelid, would have a cap of 75. It's AC is 35, so the Fencer would need to at least get 106 on his attack roll to feel the cap. Probably still needs work ;)
The more I think about these things, I don't know if this route can really work. I need to balance the ability being powerful enough to be worth it, not abusable by dipping, hopefully make a kind of sense, and not be so terribly complicated that you have to plug various numbers into a formula every time you hit.
All the more reason to be thinking more about the crit-dice angle. It's friendlier to the rest of the mechanics the game already has in place.
Or I could throw yet another idea into the mix :) This one's probably too much, but maybe it can be fine tuned. Something along the lines of adding 1 point of Int modifier per class level to the threat range of your weapon (finessable only). It sounds kind of crazy, but if you limit it to not stacking with Improved Critical or Keen or anything else, precedent set by all of those, it's really not that bad. A rogue with a rapier could take the feat at 11th level, or have one +1 keen as soon as he gets 8000 gold, and add 3 to his threat range. It would take 3 levels of this class to equal that, and more to beat it. That's not dipping, it's multiclassing. And taking 20 levels of this Fencer could improve crits more by adding 1 to the weapon's crit multiplier a few times, say at 6, 11, and 16.
Just another thought. The threat range thing could I guess become crazy if someone was maxing out their Int, but then, it's not a threat if it wouldn't have hit, and you still need to confirm afterward, and with Int over Dex the attack bonus won't be what it could be. Not to mention AC, and as everything would be while in light armor only, prioritizing anything but Dex would be really risky.
Or heck, just say it maxes out at tripling a weapon's normal range. That's still 12-20 with a rapier (the clearly intended weapon for the class), which is a 45% chance of threatening. I'd call that good.
Zerombr wrote: Jolly Blackburn created a prestige class called the Professional that might be a bit close to what you're looking for. The idea was that it did extra precision damage depending on how much over the AC of the target it hit, it also sacrificed iterative attacks for even more precision damage.
Very duelist, very swashbuckler style
Sounds neat, although I'm on board with the argument that I want this style of character available at level 1, not 6 or 7. But thanks, if I can find it I'll check it out for ideas.
You mention expanding the crit range of a rapier -- if you're not adding much Str to damage, and if you're not power attacking, etc. etc., that critical damage will be a measly 3.5. Totally lame, and totally not balancing. But I remembered why criticals are such a big deal in Pathfinder -- critical feats! What if the swashbuckler were less about dealing damage and more about debilitating his foes? He could receive various critical feats at various levels as bonus feats (perhaps eschewing prerequisites).
Well, this approach would add whatever strength the character had, and wouldn't prevent power attack, but maybe it would work out better if that increase to crit multiplier happened a little more often, maybe at 4th and every 4 after. But yeah, the critical effect feats would also be a big part making this build work. It could be like how a monk gets stunning fist way earlier than anyone else could possibly take it. Of course, with all this crit-based stuff, the poor guy better not get stuck in a campaign heavy on ghosts, elementals, or oozes.
So, very early rough draft of the kind of thing I'd want to see. Call it a first attempt. Basically I took the base fighter and looked at how often it got how many different abilities, and matched them to what fit for how I'd want my class to work. I don't think there's any question that some of these that I put in are better than what I took out, but there's also the loss of proficiency with medium and heavy armor and shields, and most of the abilities would only work with a weapon allowed by the weapon finesse feat.
First, remove all the bonus feats. At first level, a fencer gets weapon finesse. At all the even levels, instead of a feat, a fencer adds 1d6 of "critical strike" or whatever better name gets thought up. It's just additional damage that gets added to any critical hit. Obviously anything immune to crits would be immune to this.
Next, we swap out bravery from second level and every four thereafter, and give the fencer a fencing style. I'm not sure if this should be like with rangers, a list of accesible feats depending on the style, or maybe it should just be a list of options like rogue tricks or rage powers. I kind of think somewhere in between, with abilities that aren't all just feats, some accesible to any fencer, and some of the higher ones requiring specific choices to have been made at earlier levels. More on how I see these going later.
Thirdly, out goes armor training at 3rd and every 4 after, for elusive, just like the free hand fighter archetype from the PFAPG. I thought that one was fine, if a little underwhelming, but some of the fencing style stuff could also be for AC if you really wanted to focus on it.
Weapon training, 5th and every 4, would become "critical specialist" or, again, a better name, that adds one to the Fencer's threat range with one kind of weapon, after other calculations, so it's not doubled by keen or improved critical or anything, just one more added to the range at the end.
Armor mastery's replacement, at 19th level, I haven't quite figured out yet. It should be something fairly impressive, and represent the peak of the progressing dodge bonus. My best idea so far would be taking the rogue's defensive roll ability and giving to the Fencer once per round instead of per day. Might be OP, but it is 19th level.
And finally, weapon mastery. This is breaking the pattern a little, but I think the Fencer's 20th level ability should tie in to his fencing style, showing that he's fully mastered it. But that means there would have to be a requirement to at some point take one of the specific style options. I guess that wouldn't be too big a deal, the options at 2nd level could all denote a certain style, while the non-specific options wouldn't be available until 6th.
Here's an attempt at a table to show this all spelled out:
Comments? Criticisms? I should be set on fire? Let me know what you think.
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