|
My first post as Paizo.com. Gods help me:
I'm planning an adventure plot where a noblewoman's alcoholic drink is poisoned. This event is not intended to happen offstage where the heroes cannot stop it. The poisoning is survivable even if the victim does not save. Assume for our purpose that the victim is drinking expressly to get drunk, and pounding down the drinks as fast as they can be served. Also assume that the noblewoman is incapable of spellcasting (fighter / Aristocrat type) and has no magical items to warn her.
1. Since alcohol can be considered a poison, would that cause issues with Detect / Delay / Neutralize Poison spells?
Is it reasonable to assuming that the presence of alcohol means that any alcoholic drink detects as poison to the detection spell, the effects can be delayed with the delay spell and hangovers cured with Neutralize Poison.
2. If alcohol does not detect as a poison, I'm thinking of a second idea: a binary poison. Two substances, in and of themselves and in isolation completely harmless and edible. Drink both of them them in succession and they form a nasty two-plus dose ingested poison.
If there are any rules or resources this side of a medical text I'm not considering, I'm looking for pointers, hints, ideas, sneaky bits, etc.
Thanks each and every one of you in advance!
|
Detect poison
You determine whether a creature, object, or area has been poisoned or is poisonous. You can determine the exact type of poison with a DC 20 Wisdom check. A character with the Craft (alchemy) skill may try a DC 20 Craft (alchemy) check if the Wisdom check fails, or may try the Craft (alchemy) check prior to the Wisdom check.
I have considered alcohol a weak poison for a long time (1rst ed.), so it can be detected, delayed and neutralized by the appropriate spells.
As you can see from the quote someone checking the drink will have a chance to detect the right kind of poison in it (but if there are multiple kinds of poison he should roll against each one, so alcohol could mask another poison and special poisons can have a modifier to the chance to identify them).
Binary poisons do exists and with the advanced alchemy present in Golarion it should be possible to produce them.
I think the best sources to find some information on game mechanics for binary poisons would be modern espionage games.
1. Since alcohol can be considered a poison, would that cause issues with Detect / Delay / Neutralize Poison spells?
Is it reasonable to assuming that the presence of alcohol means that any alcoholic drink detects as poison to the detection spell, the effects can be delayed with the delay spell and hangovers cured with Neutralize Poison.
2. If alcohol does not detect as a poison, I'm thinking of a second idea: a binary poison. Two substances, in and of themselves and in isolation completely harmless and edible. Drink both of them them in succession and they form a nasty two-plus dose ingested poison.
If there are any rules or resources this side of a medical text I'm not considering, I'm looking for pointers, hints, ideas, sneaky bits, etc.
Thanks each and every one of you in advance!
1. Alcohol can be considered a poison by you as a GM, but RAW it is not. That would be a house ruling - in the core rules alcohol does not detect as a poison.
2. Your idea here would be adding an entirely new mechanic to the game, and you would have to make up the rules for it yourself however you see fit.
As to whether there are any rules you can use for this that would make the poison undetectable, there are no existing mechanisms that I know of for that purpose. As noted above, you'll have to do some house rulings if you want undetectable poison in your game.
1. Since alcohol can be considered a poison, would that cause issues with Detect / Delay / Neutralize Poison spells?
Probably not. Its a medieval esque world. Alchohol isn't a poison its just what you drink to keep the water from poisoning you and to provide some flavor. It was as ubiquitous as soft drinks. When they developed the spell if it was detecting EVERY wine bottle they would have refined it a bit.
I'm pretty sure it takes less salt to kill you than alcohol.
Also i don't think its the alchohol that kills you its what your body turns the alcohol into
Is it reasonable to assuming that the presence of alcohol means that any alcoholic drink detects as poison to the detection spell, the effects can be delayed with the delay spell and hangovers cured with Neutralize Poison.
A hangover is mostly the Acetaldehyde your body makes from the alchohol and dehydration, so neutralize poison should help.
2. If alcohol does not detect as a poison, I'm thinking of a second idea: a binary poison. Two substances, in and of themselves and in isolation completely harmless and edible. Drink both of them them in succession and they form a nasty two-plus dose ingested poison.
That'll work. Especially if she's pounding the booze.
One advantage to such a plan was the ubiquitous use of semi-toxic materials in drinks of the time. Lead was added as a sweetener, wormwood added to absinthe, and potentially dangerous medicinal herbs added to metheglyn. I'd expect many drinks to set off a low-grade poison warning as potentially toxic. Disregarding these as typical "false positives", those scanning for poison might miss the true toxin.
Detecting alcohol as poison is a bad idea, IMO. Do you really want your first aid kit detecting as poisoned? There needs to be a distinction between stuff that can be bad for you, and stuff whose only purpose is to harm you.
In a magical setting, there is no such thing as an "undetectable" poison. Even if you mix two non-poisonous substances, if the mixture is poisonous it will detect as poison. The way to get around this is to use dispel magic, greater to create an anti-magic field. Or use an allergen like another poster suggested.
Serving it in lead steins will hide the poison as long as the covers are closed.
Good point, effectively proving lead would not detect as poison, and strongly implying other similar "grey area" materials likewise would not.
However, the substance would detect as poison inside her body, so if she is around when the spell is cast, only the source will be hidden.
|
Detecting an alcoholic beverage as poison won't work, unless it's a very strong drink - and in a fantasy world, even slightly toxic concoctions might be offered as a drink, from troll wine to whatever fungus spirit dwarves or other races can brew.
The binary poison might be a good idea (let's say a venison spiced with element A plus a drink laced with element B); however the fact that this defies the conventions of divination magic sounds a bit like a dirty trick based on wording loopholes, so it might be better just to raise (a lot) the DC of the Wis/Craft checks.
The lead steins is a nasty, cunning, and very effective idea.
|
|
Awesome advice, everyone.
I got the idea for a binary poison from the idea I saw in some modern military reference books about binary nerve gasses. The thing about binary agents is that their very advantage -- being undetectable until combined -- gives a second failure point in the plot. Good point about the ability of Alchemists to make binary poison.
I'm going with "Just about everything you drink either sickens you (the not-so-healthful water) or detects as poison. M'lady! (hands a lead tankard loaded with the finest mead and a couple shots of Toxic Plot Driver) Bottoms up!"
|
I had my beer spiked with something nasty last year, and I noticed it before i'd taken more than a few swigs of it and immediately went home.
I was sick for three days. Glad I got a perception check to notice something funny with the drink and its effects.
Bit of RL experience for you :). I'd go with number 2 or it could set a very bad precedent.
I had my beer spiked with something nasty last year, and I noticed it before i'd taken more than a few swigs of it and immediately went home.
I was sick for three days. Glad I got a perception check to notice something funny with the drink and its effects.
Bit of RL experience for you :). I'd go with number 2 or it could set a very bad precedent.
That's a really horrible lesson to have to learn first hand. I know of a guy who had his drink spiked with lsd while he was in the bathroom of a bar. Fried his brain instantly. Whoever did it, did it just for kicks.
Never leave your drink unattended, no matter where you are, who you're with, or what gender you are.
|
Just remember, anything you use as fair game on the players, they will want to use as well.
If you set everything to detect as poison, then you can expect a rash of *poisonings* instead of combat. Lead stein glamored to look like whatever cup it's supposed to be, with a non-detection spell?
Players can become infernally inventive when an option like this opens up. Be prepared for questions on how quickly they can make poisons and how many doses they can make at one time.
|
|
I never considered the use of alcohol as a poison cloaking device as something the heroes would do . . . but I agree that this is a bad precedent to set.
OK, ordinary booze does not detect as poison. The spell Detect Poison is a divination and senses fel intent but not the details of chemistry unless further checks are made. And, yes, I really do not want to run a Swords and CSI game.
Back to the plotting board....
A variant of the binary poison approach I'm thinking of is an alchemical substance. When administered to a person who is already drunk, the stuff becomes a poison. The alchemical substance is in and of itself relatively harmless, and when mixed with alcohol makes even the best beverage taste like swill.
As a way of making players work to make use of "Part B" if they so choose . . . Part B's ingredients are hard to find and harder to make. It is detectable with detect poison since the spell divines intent and toxicity. When administered to someone who is already intoxicated, the poison strikes.
The effect is like an amplified reaction to the drug Anabuse.
I think this is something I can live with, and having the heroes save her from being poisoned in the first place moves the plot along nicely.