DIVINE TRICKSTER
Requirements:
Alignment: any non-lawful.
Skills: Bluff 4 ranks, Knowledge religion 4 ranks, Stealth 4 ranks.
Spells: Ability to cast guidance and 2nd level divine spells.
Special: Ability to Channel Energy +2d6, Ability to use Sneak Attack +2d6.
Class Features:
BAB: +¾
Good Saves: Reflex and Will
Hit Dice: 1d8
Class Skills: Acrobatics, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Heal, Intimidate, Knowledge (all skills), Linguistics, Perception, Perform, Profession, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft, Stealth, Swim, Use Magic Device.
Skill Ranks per Level: 6 + Intelligence modifier.
Divine Tricksters gain no new armor or weapon proficiencies.
LEVEL ABILITY
1. Channel Attack, Channel Guidance +1 level of divine spellcasting
2. Channel Energy +1d6 +1 level of divine spellcasting
3. Steal Health +1 level of divine spellcasting
4. Channel Energy +2d6 +1 level of divine spellcasting
5. Improved Channel Guidance +1 level of divine spellcasting
6. Channel Energy +3d6 +1 level of divine spellcasting
7. Share Channel Guidance +1 level of divine spellcasting
8. Channel Energy +4d6 +1 level of divine spellcasting
9. Greater Channel Guidance +1 level of divine spellcasting
10. Channel Energy +5d6, Secret Spells +1 level of divine spellcasting
Channel Attack (Su): At 1st level, the divine trickster can spend one daily use of her channel energy ability as a swift action and increase the number of sneak attack dice she has by the number of channel energy dice she has for a number of rounds equal to her Charisma modifier. When the divine trickster channels energy to harm her opponents, she adds her sneak attack damage if they are flat-footed or otherwise denied their Dexterity modifier to their AC.
Channel Guidance (Su): At 1st level, the divine trickster can spend one daily use of her channel energy ability as an immediate action and add the number of channel energy dice she has to the next attack roll, saving throw, or skill check she makes.
Channel Energy (Su): At 2nd level, and every 2 levels thereafter, the divine trickster increases her channel energy ability by +1d6.
Steal Health (Su): At 3rd level, whenever the divine trickster harms her opponents with her channel energy ability, she is healed of a like amount of damage.
Improved Channel Guidance (Su): At 5th level, the divine trickster can spend one daily use of her channel energy ability as an immediate action and add the number of channel energy dice she has to the next caster level check, Concentration check, or initiative roll she makes.
Share Channel Guidance (Su): At 7th level, the divine trickster can spend one daily use of her channel energy ability as an immediate action and grant all allies within 30 feet a bonus equal to the number of channel energy dice she has to the next attack roll, caster level check, Concentration check, initiative roll, saving throw, or skill check they make.
Greater Channel Guidance (Su): At 9th level, the divine trickster can spend one daily use of her channel energy ability as an immediate action and add the number of channel energy dice she has to the Save DC of the next spell she casts.
Secret Spells (Su): At 10th level, the divine trickster can spend one of her daily uses of channel energy as a free action while casting a spell and treat it as if it were affected by the Eschew Component, Quicken Spell, Silent Spell, and Still Spell feats without increasing the effective level of the affected spell. In addition, if the target of the spell is flat-footed or otherwise denied its Dexterity modifier to its AC in relation to the divine trickster, the divine trickster automatically overcomes the spell resistance, if any, of the target.
Tagging for further reading.
I will comment once I get and read through and compare to Arcane Trickster.
First thoughts after reading:
Nice overall idea. Hoepfuly there will be energy channeling inquisitor available in the future to multiclass into Divine Trickster.
However I have some doubts about certain abilities. Actually I have some comment to each:
Channel Attack: At first I thought overpowered. After some counting on my fingers I discovered that I overreacted a bit. 3rd level Clric/7th level Rogue/10th level Divine Trickster would get 11d6 sneak attack total while using Channel Attack. Still I am uncertain about it lasting for number of rounds equal to Charisma bonus. Must think more.
Channel Guidance, Improved Channel Guidance and Greater Guidance: Shouldn't it be competence bonus like guidance spell? That immediate action worries me - but I would have to see in actual action, now it's just gut feeling that it could be too powerful. Some rewording might be useful as well when it comes to number of dice.
And the greater channel guidance giving +9 to saving throw DC is overpowered - boosting saving throw DCs is rather hard and and I can't think of any way of boosting saving throw DC by +9 for 20th level with single ability.
Channel Energy: Instead of giving additional die every even level I would just make it 1st level feature - "Channel Energy (Su): The divine trickster's class level stacks with levels in any other class that grants the channel energy ability." (like Holy Vindicator).
Share Channel Guidance: Again immediate action is what worries me, also I think that either it should benefit single ally or be divided between allies. With current benefits, who needs some lame Bard any longer?
Secret Spell: Isn't ability to quicken spells multiple times per day with expenditure of channel energy instead of higher level slot a bit too much? Also automatic piercing of SR seems a bit too powerful for me - I would separate it from secret spell and just give Divine Trickster ability to roll twice spell penetration against target that is flat-footed or otherwsie denied Dexterity. Otherwise Secret Spell could be interesting ability - effectively turning spell being cast into spell-like ability for expenditure of channel energy...
I might be a bit oversensitive for "overpowered options". I have to think it through some later time.
Thanks for the feedback.
I'm using immediate actions because other action types might not be able to affect the rolls I want to influence. If the divine trickster is about to be hit with a meteor swarm from that greater invisible flying mage, he wants that save bonus NOW!!!! Not next round.
Also, they're limited to 3 + Cha mod uses per day, AND eat up valuable healing potential.
But +9 to save DCs is a bit much....back to the drawing room!
The boost to sneak attack lasts Cha mod rounds because it's an attempt to balance the arcane trickster, which gets full sneak attack progression, with a divine class that can occasionally sneak attack. Again, it's an issue of choice and resource management: heal my allies or hurt my opponents?
For Secret Spell: I was looking for something a way that the divine caster could cast a spell while being unnoticed...or so a target can't tell if the divine trickster is casting the spell. Quicken does seem excessively powerful. Maybe just Eschew, Silent, Still, and penalty to Spellcraft checks to notice the spell equal to the divine trickster's caster level? class level? Something pretty difficult but not totally insurmountable.
The other aspect of Secret Spell, automatically overcoming spell resistance, is based on the beguiler capstone ability.
....
If I take your advice about the channel energy thing, then I'll have some empty class levels to work with. Maybe take some more things from the beguiler?
....
When I first envisioned this class, and realized I was going to be using channel energy uses as a power source, I wanted the trickster bit to be more manipulative of thoughts and feelings, whereas the arcane trickster manipulates objects and situations (ranged legerdemain, improptu sneak attack, etc.). It's defintely something to work on.
I'm using immediate actions because other action types might not be able to affect the rolls I want to influence. If the divine trickster is about to be hit with a meteor swarm from that greater invisible flying mage, he wants that save bonus NOW!!!! Not next round.
I know. I just wonder about making it working like guidance spell - grants bonus to single check made within 1 minute of using the ability - requires more planning and foresight. Maybe using this ability as immediate action would be higher level feature?
Or another option I just thought of: separate Channel Guidance bonus from number of channel energy dice - instead make it +1 bonus on second level, +2 bonus on 4th, +3 on 6th, +4 on 8th and +5 on 10th, keeping immediate action. As an immediate bonus to checks it will be powerful enough IMO and it will mask the presence of empty levels like Channel Energy previously did.
The boost to sneak attack lasts Cha mod rounds because it's an attempt to balance the arcane trickster, which gets full sneak attack progression, with a divine class that can occasionally sneak attack. Again, it's an issue of choice and resource management: heal my allies or hurt my opponents?
For Secret Spell: I was looking for something a way that the divine caster could cast a spell while being unnoticed...or so a target can't tell if the divine trickster is casting the spell. Quicken does seem excessively powerful. Maybe just Eschew, Silent, Still, and penalty to Spellcraft checks to notice the spell equal to the divine trickster's caster level? class level? Something pretty difficult but not totally insurmountable.
Maybe instead of applying Eshew Materials, Still Spell and Silent Spell describe it as turning single spell being cast into spell-like ability. As a spell-like ability it will not be using components and as an added bonus it will be immune to counterspells.
So let me get this straight... if I'm a cleric, I can enter this prestige class after 1 level of rogue and 1 level of assassin. So I give up 2 levels of my cleric progression stuff to get into the class. Once I'm in the class, I'm getting full cleric spellcasting, 4 more skills per level than a cleric, and a ton of powerful abilities... at the cost of what? The progression of my granted domain powers.
For flavor reasons, not everyone would want to play this.
But it seems "better" than the cleric from a technical standpoint, which is something you probably want to avoid.
Flak: Would 4 + Int mod skill points be better?
Should I require evasion or some kind of rogue talent, so they need to take at least 2 levels of rogue, then a 3rd of rogue or assassin?
Drejk: I was almost thinking of making it a supernatural ability! Then it also bypasses SR, and can't be spellcrafted. It would be balanced out with resource management: Channel Energy is being used by the divine trickster to heal, increase sneak attack dice, and improve dice rolls. I imagine most PCs will have at least one Extra Channel feat by this point, but the rogue/cleric multiclass is pretty MAD: Wisdom and Charisma for the Clericky bits, Dexterity and Intelligence for the Roguey bits, plus Constitution, and maybe even Strength, for the actual combat bits.
I worked up a Divine Trickster during the Beta - posted . I know I updated it for Final, will put that up tonight (hopefully).
Yours is interesting - no sneak attack progression without using the channel. Puts a lot of eggs in one basket, while instantly (upon taking the class), making the character as good/better at sneak attack as a full rogue.
Having played my version, I do think 4+Int is more appropriate. To Flak's question though, the caster level loss is pretty significant if you're the party's primary healer. Normally you can use spells 1-2 levels below max and do decent healing. Dropping 3 (or 2) levels worth of casting makes those your top level spells going out in hard-pressed situations.
Might want to figure out what a negative channeller could do using Channel Smite also. Clr3/Rog3/DTr8 for instance (L.14) would do 14d6 extra weapon damage on a single hit (uses two channels, but one lasts a while).
So let me get this straight... if I'm a cleric, I can enter this prestige class after 1 level of rogue and 1 level of assassin.
Actually, if I understand correctly Sneak Attack does not stack dice from each class but instead stack levels and then check in Rogue table (I think that one of the designers mentiond that in one thread or another).
So the character has to spend three levels for a combination of classes granting Sneak Attack to fulfill the requirements. And the Arcane Trickster does the same for arcane casters so the official precedent already happened.
Reducing skill points to 4 to match arcane trickster seems sensible.
Channel Smite plus Channel Attack might be a problem.
@Majuba -- but maybe your magic is more battlefield control or utility, which is more likely if you're going into a 'trickster' prc anyway. The caster level drop is still significant, yes, but there's a trait to make up for 2 of those caster levels and you still get 9th-level spells (even if you do 3 levels of rogue). Smilodan makes a good point about MAD, however.
@Drejk -- is that so? I know it's spelled out explicitly in places (like for vivisectionist rogues) but what about classes like assassin which explicitly state at which levels the damage increases, or classes like master spy which have non-standard sneak attack progressions? I don't think I'm supposed to stack my master spy levels with my rogue levels to determine my sneak attack; I'll end up with 2 more dice by level 20.
Arcane Trickster does 'do the same for arcane casters' but arcane casters I feel have more to lose than a cleric. Wizards and sorcerers have capstones, bards have tons of abilities, etc. Arcane trickster for them is a huge trade-off. This divine trickster would be a similar trade-off for inquisitors or oracles, but clerics? This is my beef, really, just that it seems 'better' than cleric.
Sorry if my feedback seems more critical than constructive. I'm trying to think of suggestions, too, not just complaints. I like the idea, obviously, or I wouldn't bother posting.
Flak, *any* prestige class for clerics is going to be better than straight cleric. They gain nothing after level 8.
Richard Burlew of GitP made a divine trickster too. Possibly check that out?
They gain spellcasting (great), channel improvements (useful) and domain power scaling (mediocre). This prestige class gives full spell and channel progression, thereby removing any incentive to remain a cleric in my mind. There's the cost of entering the prestige class, but eh. Anyway, I can imagine some divine PrCs for which clerics might qualify without obsoleting the cleric. Maybe that's moot because clerics are 'bad' ?
Please note: Clerics also lose 3 levels of spellcasting. That's pretty significant.
Flak, *any* prestige class for clerics is going to be better than straight cleric. They gain nothing after level 8.
Richard Burlew of GitP made a divine trickster too. Possibly check that out?
A. Rich Burlew's is what I based my own on.
B. Cleric Domains *do* have capstones (mostly?), and the 8th level usually (and lower level abilities often) get additional uses with additional cleric levels.Being 3 levels behind on spells per day is really the toughest part. Also multiple 3/4 BAB classes (there's extremely little incentive to take the 4th level in Cleric or Rogue) can be rather painful. 9th level for a second attack. 12th to qualify for improved critical.
Updated version of my conversion of the divine trickster .
If you feel the need to discourage the Rogue/Assassin trick, a 6 skill rank requirement helps.
Hm, the only cleric domain 'capstones' I'm finding are the 'immunity to one energy type' kind. Which is the minority. But yes, 3 levels of spellcasting is a lot. And yes, the 8th-level domain powers do get better as you level. As I said, though, I think they're far less exciting than the spells and the channeling.
Anyway, neat DT Majuba, but aren't undead sneak-able in pathfinder by default?
Undead are sneak attack-able, it's a relic of Burlew's DT.
Vivesectionist / Rogue also lets you only use 2 levels of non-cleric classes to get in.
But that has some awesome roleplaying opportunities, so I'm willing to let it slide. Being a cleric of Knowledge who goes around forcibly vivisecting people to learn more? Awesome.
Anyway, neat DT Majuba, but aren't undead sneak-able in pathfinder by default?
They are sneakable and critable. The Surprise For The Dead does add ability to sneak and crit incorporeal Undeads, which are immune to either. Rewording and clarification would be in place - it specifically refers to positive energy being used, which begs question - what's with Divine Tricksters that channel negative energy?
Anyway, neat DT Majuba, but aren't undead sneak-able in pathfinder by default?They are sneakable and critable. The Surprise For The Dead does add ability to sneak and crit incorporeal Undeads, which are immune to either.
All true - and I just realized why. During the Beta there was no written rules regarding what was susceptible to sneak attack, as the Beta had only a short section on changes to Monsters, but the book as a whole was already somewhat avoiding explaining changes (to things that didn't exist anymore).
Rewording and clarification would be in place - it specifically refers to positive energy being used, which begs question - what's with Divine Tricksters that channel negative energy?
Since I don't think adding immunity to sneak attack/crits would be a "nasty surprise" for undead, probably should just delete the "positive" from the line. Of course the whole ability could use re-working.
Any ideas?
Since I don't think adding immunity to sneak attack/crits would be a "nasty surprise" for undead, probably should just delete the "positive" from the line. Of course the whole ability could use re-working.
Any ideas?
Not for the "Surprise". However, now, after looking again on your Divine Trickster, I think that Trap Guidance could be replaced with regular Trapfinding ability stacking with the Rogue's. The bonuses would be probably smaller but wider and could benefit Divine Tricksters that weren't Rogues in the first places, or were Rogues with archetypes that don't grant Trapfinding. Currently Trap Guidance will be of less use to them as they won't have ability to disable magical traps in the first place so the bonus to Disable Device checks is meaningless.