I’m thinking of a master summoner from UM in the next campaign, and thinking they can be pretty competitive with a sorcerer in the spellcasting department. I did a quick glance at 2 levels – 6th & 10th, because that’s where we normally wind up in our campaigns.
Looking at 6th, both with a 19 CHA, the sorcerer spells per day are 7/6/4 with 4/2/1 known (not including bloodline). At a base the summoner is 5/4 with 4/4 known. However, if you add in the 9 summons the summoner is at 5/4/9 with 4/4/1 known. He actually casts more per day than the sorcerer (18 vs. 17). Sample lineups might look like this:
Sorcerer
1- Color spray, grease, silent image, charm person
2- Glitterdust, mirror image
3- Slow
Summoner
1- Grease, expeditious retreat, enlarge person, prot. from evil
2- Haste, slow, invisibility, gitterdust
3- Summon Monster III
At 10th they both have 20 CHA. The sorcerer now has more spells per day (32) than the summoner (28) including his summons. The sorcerer has 8/7/7/6/4 vs. the summoner’s 7/5/4/2/10. The sorcerer will know 1 more spell if you add in the bloodline. Sample lineups might look like this:
Sorcerer
1- Color spray, grease, silent image, charm person, magic missile
2- Glitterdust, mirror image, alter self, invisibility
3- Slow, summon monster III, fly
4- Dimension door, Black Tentacles
5- Telekinesis
Summoner
1- Grease, exp. retreat, enlarge person, prot. from evil, Identify
2- Haste, slow, invisibility, gitterdust, create pit
3- Black Tentacles, charm monster, fly, heroism
4- Baleful polymorph, wall of stone
5- Summon Monster V
These spell lists aren’t exactly optimized, but they’ll work at a glance. Overall it looks like the summoner can keep up here. That’s not factoring in the eidolon (which can stick around with the master summoner) or the bloodline powers and spells known. You can certainly get a lot more known spells with the human APG power, but in terms of pure summoning / battlefield control the master summoner looks good.
Thoughts?
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Many GMs absolutely cringe at the thought of having to deal with a bunch of extra summoned monsters on the table getting their attack actions. Many players hate it too. It slows combat down considerably with the summoner getting a disproportionate amount of focus time. A good percentage of GMs will house rule ban the archetype because an unprepared player of a master summoner is a nightmare. It s bad enough that the UM has its own sidebar dedicated to it on page 79.
So, consider this a MUST do: Precalculate your summoned creatures that you are going to use with their celestial/fiendish templates and any affecting feats like Augment Summoning. Have this written down or printed out as complete as you would a character sheet or animal companion. Then have that paper in hand when you cast the summons. Treat it as "if you have to reach for the book, your summon fails."
The second suggestion is to buy a box of dixie cups. Assign a cup for each creature. Write the attack and damage bonuses for all of its attacks on the bottom of the cup. While you are waiting for your turn to come up, load into each cup the attack and damage dice for that creature. Then when your turn comes up, you can move the creatures figure, flip the cup, count your damage, and move on to the next one. This requires a lot of dice, and preferably different colors. So, your claw attack is red, second claw is blue, and bite is green, all in one cup.
The goal it be able to take your round with all your creatures very quickly. If you can do your job faster than the ranger with his rapid shot and iterative attacks of multiple arrows, then you are doing fine. If you can show the GM you are going to not waste time, he *might* let you play the archetype.
The other problem GMs have is that so many extra bodies can *possibly* show up after the fight starts, it is hard to gauge how many opponents he should throw at your party. Too few, and the bad guys are surrounded and torn up with little effort by the party. To many, and it can lead to a TPK real fast. In other words, it makes the balancing act the GM does far more difficult.
Therefore, expect the archetype to be banned, and ask the GM "pretty please" if you want to take it.
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I agree with most of what Elyza says. I am playing a master summoner right now (only made it to level 2), and he is coming along quite nicely. However, I am always prepared, complete with iPhone summoning apps and my laptop pdfs....I have even taken pages from the bestiary and made separate files for each Summon Monster spells so I can just flip quickly between pages and have all the stats there.
As to your analysis of the class I think that you are dead on. One thing that must be pointed out is that while the sorcerer may have more TOTAL spells than you, you will have many many more of your highest level spells due to the fact that your summon ability spell level increases (i.e. when he has 4 5th levels per day you will have the equivalent of 12), and the ability to cast summons as a standard action with 10x duration can't be overestimated.
While currently no one in my campaign use summonings/companions, I decided that mechnical control over summons would be spread between PCs present as evenly as possible so other players would at least get to roll for summoned monsters and thus share combat time more evenly.
Yeah I'm one for complaining long and loud about the sorcerer and the summoner's abilities and spells -- but I won't ever claim that a summoner completely replaces a sorcerer or that a sorcerer has no place at the table -- simply that I'm not completely happy with where several things have turned out.
The sorcerer is still viable (and even powerful), and the summoner is nice, and can be a great full caster... but he's not quite a sorcerer either.
Consider me one of them who rules this as DOA for player characters. PFS does as well. I also require anyone who uses summons to have combat sheets prepared for whatever they are looking to summon.Many GMs absolutely cringe at the thought of having to deal with a bunch of extra summoned monsters on the table getting their attack actions. Many players hate it too. It slows combat down considerably with the summoner getting a disproportionate amount of focus time. A good percentage of GMs will house rule ban the archetype because an unprepared player of a master summoner is a nightmare. It s bad enough that the UM has its own sidebar dedicated to it on page 79.
Managing summons is just part of learning to be a decent player.
If you learn how to do so efficiently there is no problem. In fact I've been at tables where one player had 8 different creatures and their turn went more swiftly than the player who only had his own PC.
It's all about the player,
James
I agree with this. I have run a druid which means I have to handle my animal companion, the druid itself, and any summons I have out. The fact that I already know what I will do makes my turns go by faster than other players.
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Managing summons is just part of learning to be a decent player.
If you learn how to do so efficiently there is no problem. In fact I've been at tables where one player had 8 different creatures and their turn went more swiftly than the player who only had his own PC.
It's all about the player,
James
Amen to that, James. That's why I will come prepared. As to your previous point (and I am not sure that you were directing this as me), I was not suggesting that the summoner would supplant the sorcerer. I was trying to suggest that the master summoner, in it's role, was merely on a similar power level to the sorcerer.
I tend to look at the master summoner as a Swiss Army knife. Sure, you may have a better pair of scissors or a screwdriver in your tool drawer, but in a pinch the Swiss Army knife can get the job done. Similarly, the myriad of summons that you can whip out can meet almost any combat challenge, albeit not necessarily as effectively as a PC built to handle said challenge.
I was trying to suggest that the master summoner, in it's role, was merely on a similar power level to the sorcerer.
I tend to look at the master summoner as a Swiss Army knife. Sure, you may have a better pair of scissors or a screwdriver in your tool drawer, but in a pinch the Swiss Army knife can get the job done. Similarly, the myriad of summons that you can whip out can meet almost any combat challenge, albeit not necessarily as effectively as a PC built to handle said challenge.
Right, this was my point as well. I had not of a summoner, without the Eidilon, as a comparative caster, but think the master summoner competes.
Also, I do agree the player needs to be well prepared to ensure quick & efficient combat with this sort of character.
Also, I do agree the player needs to be well prepared to ensure quick & efficient combat with this sort of character.
Oh god no.
I'm playing in a group right now, and one of the characters is a monster factory.
While it's nice to have the extra bodies to throw at bad guys, if the dude doesn't know what he's going to summon by the time the things comes out, then there's a problem.
If the dude is unfamiliar with what he has available, then there's a problem.
If the dude doesn't know how templates work, then some accidental cheating occurs, but that's the GM's problem, which then becomes the player's problem.
While not a ton of preparation is needed. The player has to know of/keep track of monster HP, AC, movment and special abilities.
I will say the probably one of the best things to do would be a system of pre-rolling. Granted, this is assuming the only thing you do, is summon monster X. And for sheer quantity of critters, I think the Sorcerer has a Bloodline that increases the number of demons summoned by 1, which stacks with the feat that increases the number of creatures overall by 1. so a minimum of 4, max of 7 creatures summoned if two levels lower, minimum 3 max 5 if one level lower.
If you only use it once or so every encounter, then it's no big deal, or different than playing a normal summoner/druid/ranger/Ledership feat.
I agree with most of what Elyza says. I am playing a master summoner right now (only made it to level 2), and he is coming along quite nicely. However, I am always prepared, complete with iPhone summoning apps and my laptop pdfs....I have even taken pages from the bestiary and made separate files for each Summon Monster spells so I can just flip quickly between pages and have all the stats there.
As to your analysis of the class I think that you are dead on. One thing that must be pointed out is that while the sorcerer may have more TOTAL spells than you, you will have many many more of your highest level spells due to the fact that your summon ability spell level increases (i.e. when he has 4 5th levels per day you will have the equivalent of 12), and the ability to cast summons as a standard action with 10x duration can't be overestimated.
I plan to play one in a friend's next campaign, I'm gonna use combat manager, it applies augment summoning and the celestial/fiendish templates with the touch of a button, really awesome. Just in case I can't use my laptop at the moment I plan to print out a few select monsters for quick reference ^_^.