| Harles |
After another session in which my rogue's biggest contribution was using a healing wand with a bard level I picked up on a whim, I'm beginning to question my character's combat effectiveness. The last several sessions (from a PF AP) have focused on fights with elementals, incorporeal undead, swarms, and creatures that can't be flanked. So I'm not dealing big sneak attack damage - a little disappointing but I know it's not everything.
Other characters seem to have better skill bonuses (or the same) to stealth and disable thanks to high Dex scores and other bonuses (familiars, racial, etc.) The module design for the series seems to also be avoiding dastardly traps that are a rogues's forte. My rogue seems to have no niche in the campaign aside from character development and roleplaying, but I could do that with any class.
What do you think would be a better contributor to the party than my Rogue 4/ Bard 2 in the Council of Thieves AP? The rest of the party consists of a Diviner, Cleric, melee Ranger, and Barbarian. (The cleric misses about every other game, which necessitated in my diversification into bard to use healing wands.)
Merck
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I haven't played this AP yet but i was under the impression that Concil of Thieves was dungeon/traps heavy.
Anyway, since you already took bard lvls have you considered investing in social skills and been the party face? Going bard for now on will also make you a great party buff/support character. You should check the new bard's spells from APG, they are amazing. And so are a lot of the new archetypes.
If you are already considering dropping your rogue ask your DM if you can re-customize your character. Grab a rogue and a bard archetype, maybe twink your stats a little bit or redo your equipment with wealth by lvl and grab a headband of CHA. Remember you can use your perform skill on social skills through versatile performance.
Asteldian Caliskan
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These days if the party wants a Rogue for traps then may aswell create an Urban Ranger from APG - I believe they can find and disarm magical traps (I may be wrong? I think they get Trap Finding) then you have no need to worry about sneak attack and kick butt in all situations, even more so against favoured enemies
| ericthecleric |
Yes, there are some creatures that are immune to sneak attack as you've already noted, but you should be able to use it plenty throughout the AP as a whole.
The ranger can use cure wands. Why isn't he using them? You don't need the bard levels if he uses them. Ask your GM if you can change the bard levels to rogue, or go all bard as a previous poster said.
Good luck, and I hope you get more enjoyment from the AP soon!
| MicMan |
First, multiclassing sucks. At 4/2 you are a suboptimal Rogue and a bad Bard with almost no synergy.
Second, make sure the GM knows about the rules for Sneak Attacking. Apart from elementals, swarms and oozes, very little is immune to Sneak Attack damage nowadays.
Third, a Rogue is not a damage dealer. With an optimised build and someone who flanks for you, your Rogue can do ok. But in a three-PC-party in a combat heavy environment I would suggest picking up another class (Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Druid...) if you want to see big damage numbers.
Really, with urban ranger avaiable the need for a Rogue is lower than ever.
calagnar
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My first guess is your build. And not reading the players guide.
My second guess is you made a rogue who focused on traps.
Need to know the build befor we can find the problem. More people go wrong on the first two more then any thing else.
BTW my full bard was very effective in the CoT. As was the rogue in the party.
| meabolex |
If you want combat effectiveness, 4 rogue/2 bard isn't it. You could make a case for 4 rogue/2 barbarian (improved uncanny dodge + fast movement + rage). In fact, you could make a case for just about anything with a full BAB -- 4 rogue/2 paladin, 4 rogue/2 fighter, 4 rogue/2 ranger. . . but 4 rogue 2 bard is pretty far from combat optimal.
Honestly, you could play essentially the same character as 4 bard/2 rogue and be a lot happier. You get 2nd level spells (heroism/suggestion) and you get evasion/trapfinding/sneak attack/rogue talent. If you play with traits, consider Magical Knack (bard). It's not totally combat optimal, but it's not an extreme departure from your original character and more effective. Maybe you could let the GM let you switch out levels for that build instead?
| DeathQuaker RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8 |
FIRST:
What is your character concept? What are your highest and lowest ability scores? What have you put your skill ranks into? What is your character's preferred combat style? What are your party's general tactics? How does your character contribute to the party outside of combat?
There are many ways to build a character, and in particular innumerable ways to build a rogue, so it's hard to comment on why you feel like your character may not be effective without this information.
SECOND:
Based on the information you HAVE provided, these are my thoughts:
1. A rogue 4/bard 2 is going to be a phenomenal skill monkey and be good at filling in niches the rest of the party can't. But it's not going to be a strong combat role, necessarily--at least not in dealing damage. So first thing is -- do you want to be a support character or do you want to be a melee monster? There is not a wrong answer to this question, and it is not a trick question. If you want your character to be a support character and help everybody be better at what they do, even if you don't deal a lot of damage in combat, then you can probably go forward as you are--just think about the skills you think you will need. Ask your GM if he can give you a general sense of the needs of the campaign without spoiling anything. And as you've got a 5 man party, there is a lot of room for you to play this role and thrive in it--if that's what you want to do. I've seen a multiclass rogue/bard played to great effect, but the player very much wanted to be skill focused, not damage focused (and focused her combat style very carefully so she could still at least contribute, but she was fine with not being a big damage dealer).
It's going to be harder with this combination--especially where there are a lot of creatures immune to sneak attacks--to be able to be strong at melee, although you should with your bard spells and Use Magic Device be able to buff yourself and the rest of the party and certainly be effective.
2. Your rogue-bard presumably has a high Charisma. This makes it optimal to consider taking one of two paths, if not both
a) A feint build (Combat Expertise + Improved Feint + Greater Feint)--which you help you get your sneak attacks off more often, and even when fighting creatures that are immune, denying them their Dexterity to AC can still be helpful.
b) An Intimidate/Dazzling Display build. Going down this route leads to feats that can allow you to do some pretty cool debuffs--including an ability that renders all shaken foes flat-footed, which again becomes useful, especially when setting up a sneak attack.
Both of these options will not make you deal massive damage, but will allow you to contribute to combat helpfully in a way that plays to your character's strengths while also helping your party members as well.
3. If your party Barbarian and Ranger are both melee characters, is there room for you to become a ranged combatant? Assuming your character has a good Dex, maybe it would be most effective for you to stand back and shoot (and protect the diviner, as you still have more hit points and probably AC than he does should enemies break through the front lines). Yes, it's harder to set up sneak attacks from range, but as you seem to be having trouble with this anyway, may as well be able to stand back and fight (plus find other ways to make characters vulnerable to sneak attack if they can be attacked, like make them flat-footed with Shatter Defenses).
4. Although of course it should not be their sole concern, ask the Diviner and Cleric to buff you when you cannot get off sneak attack so you can still help. Everybody should be working together to make each other better at what they do (likewise, your bard songs can help the others, etc.).
5. If you are using the APG, review various character archetypes and spells which may help you tighten your concept and give you some more unique abilities that you can contribute to the party with. One small example would be the vanish spell, which with its limited invisibility would be very useful to a rogue.
6. If your GM is allowing you to rebuild your character, some thoughts:
-- First, think very much about your CONCEPT. Not, "I want to play a rogue," but "I want to play a fast-talking guy who zips through the battlefield" or "I want to play someone who's really good with a sword" or "I want to play a stealthy pickpocket." Think about of course what abilities may be needed in the party, but also think about what you would have the most fun playing, and THEN pick out the classes and feats that support that concept, rather than pick out a class and then realize it's not doing for you what you want it to.
-- If you took your bard levels ONLY because you wanted to be able to cast a few spells from a wand---consider rebuilding as pure rogue and just throw lots of ranks into Use Magic Device. It may help you focus your concept and you can still use a Wands and the like to help heal. Now, if you wanted the bard levels for other reasons, then maybe ignore this, but I kind of got the sense you dipped into bard for limited spellcasting, and that's not really necessary for the rogue (the minor and major magic talents can also help with that--though not with healing magic of course, but with a ranger and a cleric, the extra healing magic is really a low priority).
-- If on the other hand you really LIKE the bard idea and like casting spells, but still want a roguish theme or abilities, consider the bard sandman archetype in the APG if your GM will allow it. It's basically Pathfinder's answer to the spellthief, and the class has some fun abilities. The class will not make you a combat god, but it will give you a lot of interesting options and ways to affect enemies and bolster your friends.
-- Again, consider your combat style and what you want to do--ranged or melee, and if you do melee--recognize the barbarian and often the ranger are going to do more damage than you except when you sneak attack. They are the martial classes and you are a martial-support-skill-monkey. Think of other ways you can contribute to combat that aren't necessarily about DPS--zipping in and out of range to distract enemy meleers, demoralizing, stealing, etc. etc.
FINALLY:
Sit down and have a long chat with your GM and players about this and see what suggestions they have, and brainstorm how the whole party can also work together more effectively.
Good luck.
| loaba |
Could you post the character? Without that info, everyone is just guessing. Well, I mean, I am anyway.
You say you're a Bard 2/Rogue 4. All I know is, multi-classing is cool and all, but if it's not done well all it does is water down class abilities. You really have to make sure you're stacking class strengths.
| james maissen |
The rest of the party consists of a Diviner, Cleric, melee Ranger, and Barbarian. (The cleric misses about every other game, which necessitated in my diversification into bard to use healing wands.)
Why did you do that? The ranger can use a wand of cure light.
If you are going for the quintessential rogue, might I suggest rogue6? Likewise I would suggest that you plan out the PC through all the levels that you are going to play him.. you can deviate from this plan to a new plan.. but having such a guideline is imho mandatory as it saves you from moments like these.
-James
| loaba |
I would suggest that you plan out the PC through all the levels that you are going to play him.. you can deviate from this plan to a new plan.. but having such a guideline is imho mandatory as it saves you from moments like these.
-James
I couldn't agree more. I always have a plan for 2-3 levels in advance.