Does anyone have house rules for using mana as a resource rather than spell slots?
Does anyone have house rules for using mana as a resource rather than spell slots?
Its called renaming everything in the psionics handbook to purge the sci fi.
Edit: But in all seriousness, take a look at Dreamscarred Press's psionics rules and use them as a base for a 'casting by spending points instead of slots' model.
They're available for free from the pfrpg srd site.
Does anyone have house rules for using mana as a resource rather than spell slots?
The original d20 SRD has a variant Spell Points system in it. However, it is not balanced to the exact level as the expanded psionics. Then again, if you are not using psionics, it may not matter.
The easiest way to do a mana based system if you just want to try it out is to take an existing PF spellcaster and total up spellslot*spelllevel to get mana points, and then each spell uses up it's level's worth of mana when it is cast. The problem with that is that high level spells don't scale linearly in power, so trading three first level spell slots to cast one third level spell isn't "balanced".
Way back in 2e days I played around with a mana system that had each level require twice as much mana as the previous level, so a fourth level spell took as much mana as 8 first level spells, 4 second level spells or 2 third level spells. That was more "balanced", but still wasn't perfect. I also had mana cap at just enough to cast a couple of your highest level spells, and it regenerated fairly quickly over time. So in one encounter you couldn't cast a whole bunch of your highest level spells, but after a short rest your mana had regenerated.
As I recall it was possible to get emergency mana by sacrificing hit points and/or constitution, but it created a condition called "spell fatigue" which lowered your maximum mana for several hours afterwards, depending on how many hit points you sacrificed.
This was not remotely well play tested, we only did it for a short time before college and a player joining the military broke up our group. But as I recall it "felt" sorta like real magic.
The easiest way to do a mana based system if you just want to try it out is to take an existing PF spellcaster and total up spellslot*spelllevel to get mana points, and then each spell uses up it's level's worth of mana when it is cast. The problem with that is that high level spells don't scale linearly in power, so trading three first level spell slots to cast one third level spell isn't "balanced".
Way back in 2e days I played around with a mana system that had each level require twice as much mana as the previous level, so a fourth level spell took as much mana as 8 first level spells, 4 second level spells or 2 third level spells. That was more "balanced", but still wasn't perfect. I also had mana cap at just enough to cast a couple of your highest level spells, and it regenerated fairly quickly over time. So in one encounter you couldn't cast a whole bunch of your highest level spells, but after a short rest your mana had regenerated.
Or perhaps a turn-based system almost like real-time regeneration? Though that would be a nightmare to playtest.
Or perhaps a turn-based system almost like real-time regeneration? Though that would be a nightmare to playtest.The easiest way to do a mana based system if you just want to try it out is to take an existing PF spellcaster and total up spellslot*spelllevel to get mana points, and then each spell uses up it's level's worth of mana when it is cast. The problem with that is that high level spells don't scale linearly in power, so trading three first level spell slots to cast one third level spell isn't "balanced".
Way back in 2e days I played around with a mana system that had each level require twice as much mana as the previous level, so a fourth level spell took as much mana as 8 first level spells, 4 second level spells or 2 third level spells. That was more "balanced", but still wasn't perfect. I also had mana cap at just enough to cast a couple of your highest level spells, and it regenerated fairly quickly over time. So in one encounter you couldn't cast a whole bunch of your highest level spells, but after a short rest your mana had regenerated.
Actually, we didn't allow mana to regenerate DURING combat. It was just too contentious. Of course this was back in 2e when we didn't use battlemats and only rarely used miniatures. Sometimes our "turns" weren't nearly as obvious as they are in today's game. But I would still recommend not allowing mana to regenerate during combat. Too much stress, not enough time to meditate, adrenaline flowing... whatever.
The easiest way to do a mana based system if you just want to try it out is to take an existing PF spellcaster and total up spellslot*spelllevel to get mana points, and then each spell uses up it's level's worth of mana when it is cast. The problem with that is that high level spells don't scale linearly in power, so trading three first level spell slots to cast one third level spell isn't "balanced".
For instance, Cure level 1 does 1d8, costs 1 mana. Cure level 3 does 2d8, costs 3 mana. Yeah, three level 1's is better. You need 3 rounds to cast them though. Doesn't that make the tradeoff worthwhile? Personally, I prefer a system that discourages downranking.
But I would still recommend not allowing mana to regenerate during combat.
I'm thinking mana would regenerate overnight.
The easiest way to do a mana based system if you just want to try it out is to take an existing PF spellcaster and total up spellslot*spelllevel to get mana points, and then each spell uses up it's level's worth of mana when it is cast. The problem with that is that high level spells don't scale linearly in power, so trading three first level spell slots to cast one third level spell isn't "balanced".For instance, Cure level 1 does 1d8, costs 1 mana. Cure level 3 does 2d8, costs 3 mana. Yeah, three level 1's is better. You need 3 rounds to cast them though. Doesn't that make the tradeoff worthwhile? Personally, I prefer a system that discourages downranking.
But I would still recommend not allowing mana to regenerate during combat.I'm thinking mana would regenerate overnight.
Well, since the whole point of the mana experiment was to get past the "I've used my spells, let's find a place to camp."
"What!? It's 9:00 in the MORNING!"The regeneration during the day was explicitly designed to allow parties to continue adventuring instead of holing up to sleep every half hour.
I think I might suggest experimenting with this with my new group.... I really do dislike Vancian magic.
Well, the UA spellpoint system i recall was similar to the 3.x psionics points.
Not spell level= points, it was: 1 point +(2*spell level-1), a level 1 being 1 point, a level 2 being 3 points, level 3 being 5. So instead of "3 level 1 spells = 1 3rd level" it was "5 level 1 spells = 1 3rd level" in resources.
Now as for some type of replentishment, how about Caster Level in spell points/hour?
Well, the UA spellpoint system i recall was similar to the 3.x psionics points.
Not spell level= points, it was: 1 point +(2*spell level-1), a level 1 being 1 point, a level 2 being 3 points, level 3 being 5. So instead of "3 level 1 spells = 1 3rd level" it was "5 level 1 spells = 1 3rd level" in resources.
Now as for some type of replentishment, how about Caster Level in spell points/hour?
I could tweak the spellpoint system easily enough. I think that's all arbitrary anyway since the spellcasting NPCs you encounter will have the same rules. It's mostly about trying to maintain some semblance of balance (and I am no balance seeker).
I like the regaining of caster spell points per hour. I'm a big fan of simple rules that scale simply. I don't remember how we did it, but this is certainly worth a try.
Well, since the whole point of the mana experiment was to get past the "I've used my spells, let's find a place to camp."
"What!? It's 9:00 in the MORNING!"
The other purpose is to free the caster from the restriction of only being able to cast that one spell he memorized, rather than any that he knows.
I also want to give casters the ability to cast more spells at first level than normally, for this very reason. Considering that, I would think sleeping to regenerate a necessity. But I'm open to opinions.
whatever you end up going with keep in mind this.
the problem with any mana based system is the risk of NOVA
and by that I mean there nothing to stop a player just using their most powerful spell completely maxed over and over again. Sure they run out of mana quickly but it'll decimate any well balanced encounters you have.
and the reverse is also true, trying to then compensate with additional encounters after a player has gone NOVA, party is then down a caster and risks of PK's and TPK's is higher as the group is now below power without spellcaster.
although spell levels are not perfect they do provide a better balance when designing encounters.
whatever you end up going with keep in mind this.
the problem with any mana based system is the risk of NOVA
and by that I mean there nothing to stop a player just using their most powerful spell completely maxed over and over again. Sure they run out of mana quickly but it'll decimate any well balanced encounters you have.
and the reverse is also true, trying to then compensate with additional encounters after a player has gone NOVA, party is then down a caster and risks of PK's and TPK's is higher as the group is now below power without spellcaster.
although spell levels are not perfect they do provide a better balance when designing encounters.
Though, in an environment completely based on encounter mechanics (no daily powers, healing surge mechanic redesigned), novas aren't possible.
whatever you end up going with keep in mind this.
the problem with any mana based system is the risk of NOVA
and by that I mean there nothing to stop a player just using their most powerful spell completely maxed over and over again. Sure they run out of mana quickly but it'll decimate any well balanced encounters you have.
and the reverse is also true, trying to then compensate with additional encounters after a player has gone NOVA, party is then down a caster and risks of PK's and TPK's is higher as the group is now below power without spellcaster.
although spell levels are not perfect they do provide a better balance when designing encounters.
Yes. So as I stated above, the way we did mana was to max out mana in such a way that the caster could only cast a few of their highest level spells before needing to regenerate. In general there was very little difference in the number of high level spells that could be cast in one encounter. That was by design.
You could argue the reverse of our approach. If you blew all your mana on three level 4 spells, then you wouldn't have any lower level spells to fall back on unless you ate the spell fatigue penalties.
I have contemplated a two-tiered mana system that would essentially separate offensive and defensive spells into two different mana pools, but that started getting complex and my group was broken up anyway.
I do think mana is a better approach than Vancian magic, but I don't care enough to go seek out a new game system and new players. I've played with Vancian magic for a long time, a little longer won't kill me. But I would like to give mana another shot one day...
the problem with any mana based system is the risk of NOVA...and by that I mean there nothing to stop a player just using their most powerful spell completely maxed over and over again.
the way we did mana was to max out mana in such a way that the caster could only cast a few of their highest level spells before needing to regenerate.
What else could stop a player from doing this?
Though, in an environment completely based on encounter mechanics (no daily powers, healing surge mechanic redesigned), novas aren't possible.
Could you be more specific? I'm not sure I understand.
the problem with any mana based system is the risk of NOVA...and by that I mean there nothing to stop a player just using their most powerful spell completely maxed over and over again.the way we did mana was to max out mana in such a way that the caster could only cast a few of their highest level spells before needing to regenerate.What else could stop a player from doing this?
Depends on how much bookkeeping you want to do. You could, for example, say that gathering the energy for spells takes time, and casters can only gather 1 spell level/mana point/whatever worth of energy per round (or more per round if you prefer - tweak as needed), up to a maximum they can hold at once, of say double the highest level spell's cost. In which case, they can cast their top level spell back to back, but in the third round, they're gonna only be able to pull off a 2nd level or something - again, tweak as needed.
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THe Best Mana ysstem that I have seen computes mana like ths
Wizard [Int x2]+Char +[ELx3]
Cleric [wisx2]+char +[ELx3]
Paladin Str+wis+[elx2]
Bard CHarx2 +int +[elx2]
Inquistor Char+Con+int+ elx2] I extropolated on the inquistor as they
were not in the game system that I ogt this mana ystem from.
Note I subsituted Charsima for Ego as Pathfinder and 3E does not have an ego stat as the game i browed the system from does.
Each spell has a set mana cost and Metamagic is handeled by multiplying the mana cost Mytsic dart is like a big magic missle base 17 pts damage
ex if you want your mystic Dart to do doublle damage it is 2x the mana cost 3x damage is 4x the mana cost
In terms of the 'nova' problem, the best way to prevent this is to make sure the players know they will be facing several encounters every day at a minimum. Players like to think they can retreat rest, and come back without issue, but really you shouldnt be letting this happens without interference. As a dm, if my player rest after several encounters and are low on resources thats fine, but if they try to rest after one or two fights, they have to know they are going to get hit with a surpise encounter or two. Make sure the sense of urgency and the sense of a required workday is there, and if not abushes are coming. That pretty much settles out the nova problem pretty quickly.
Also, if you are interested the Super Genius Guide to sorceror options has a different take on the spell point system for the sorceror. Its an interesting slightly different take on the subject, and I would definately include the Bedreven before I use UA's spell points.
the problem with any mana based system is the risk of NOVA
Is this problem a problem because wizard damage spells are so powerful compared to anything else they could be casting? Or because they seem to have nothing to do but cast a few spells and be done? Or is it really a problem at all? An EPL=EL encounter should drain 20% of your resources, doesn't that mean the wiard's spell? Maybe the problem stems from a lack of the wizard having other things to do for the rest of the day.