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if a bard is using bardic music while invisible, does he give away his position?
if a bard is using bardic music while invisible, does he give away his position?
Hmmmmm. I think you'd have to ad hoc this one a bit.
The base DC to perceive a creature standing out in the open is 0.
Invisibility increases this by 20 (fighting is the same as moving)
The bard absolutely can't stealth to add to the roll.
A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that “something's there” but can't see it or target it accurately with an attack. It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check.
So technically, the DC to pinpoint the bard would be 40, but made with a +10 bonus from all the noise the bard is making (equivalent on the chart to a battle)
So an effective DC of 30. That seems ridiculously high to me but i can't see a raw reason to lower it.
If its one of the debuffs, then it counts as an attack and definitely breaks the invisibility.
If its one of the buffs, the its not an attack and it gets more complicated.
Invisibility adds to the users stealth check (which gets oposed by the enemies perception), not some base DC 0.
Also, stuff that doesn't affect enemies does not count as attacking, and so why should it reduce the bonus from +40 to +20?
So yeah, it's a ridicilous bonus and its extremely silly that a bard that plays music or sings all the time can remain invisible, but thats how its written.
Invisibility adds to the users stealth check (which gets oposed by the enemies perception), not some base DC 0.
-From stealth
Check: Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It's impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.
I don't think it would be out of line to say that you can't stealth while singing any more than you can while attacking running or charging. Since you don't have a stealth roll to add the invisibility to, thats why i started at a base DC of 0.
Also, stuff that doesn't affect enemies does not count as attacking, and so why should it reduce the bonus from +40 to +20?
From the invisibility spell
If a check is required, a stationary invisible creature has a +40 bonus on its Stealth checks. This bonus is reduced to +20 if the creature is moving.
The singing bard is not holding still, hence +20 instead of +40.
The singing bard is not holding still, hence +20 instead of +40.
So in order to get the +40 bonus, you aren't even allowed to breathe, blink, or look in a different direction?
-Singing at the level of a bardic performance (even for humming) requires a bit more movement than standing quietly in the corner and breathing. You need to BREATHE deeply move your arms, change your posture etc. Watch a singer perform, all that motion they're doing isn't just for the audience.
A dc of 30 is ridiculously hard, i can't see arguing to make it harder. Fooling around with some friends and a broom in high-school it was pretty easy to stand on a street blindfolded and whack people with a broom as they tried to sneak up on you, and thats when they were trying to be quiet, much less singing. (it was a small town. We were bored)
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It's not the moving part of singing that would give you away... it's the standing in the middle of the room singing. The spell is inVISIBILITY, after all, not inAUDIBILITY.
From Perception, hearing the sounds of a conversation is DC0 and hearing a battle is DC-10. Hearing a whisper is DC15. Use whichever of those you think is appropriate - I'd probably split the difference between battle and conversation: DC-5. It [i]is[i/] a performance... (PRD: "If a bardic performance has audible components, the targets must be able to hear the bard for the performance to have any effect")
Now add Invisibility bonus of +20. There's no way I'm giving a noisy creature +40 (equivalent to standing quietly). The PRD even says "Of course, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable (such as swimming in water or stepping in a puddle)." This says to me that certain circumstances - like making a lot of noise - can completely counter Invisibility's bonus, but I'll accept that a 5' square can be a big place; invisible creatures still get some benefit vs. pin-pointing.
So now we're at DC15. Not too hard but not automatic. Seems right to me.
Note: This is a similar discussion to the interaction of the Scent ability and Invisibility. Invisibility doesn't mask smell at all, so to a creature with Scent, you're right there. My group has come to the agreement that at 30' the creature with Scent knows someone is there and can use a move action to use Perception to pinpoint, DC12 (+20 for Invis, -8 vs. Scent) + hider's Stealth. At 5', the pinpoint is automatic.
Maybe use something similar for singing... range 30', you hear but need a move action to pinpoint, DC15 (+20 Invis, -5 noisier than a conversation, no Stealth). At 5', pinpoint is automatic.
The invisibility spell specifically states that you can talk and cast spells without breaking it. Well it says you can summon monsters, but you have to cast for that.
That's not THAT different from singing.
Bard makes a stealth check, thats D20 + stealth + 40 if he stands still or +20 if he moves. Singing is NOT moving.
The enemy makes a perception check. The DC to "Notice a creature using Stealth" is "Opposed by Stealth" as per Perception rules.
So his Base DC is something between 30-50 + stealth rating.
I would definitely give him a +10 or +20 on his perception check here, because the noise is a pretty good indicator of the direction. (it depends though, if you're in a room with good acustics the sound might appear to come from everywhere at once)
However that bonus is not the same as the +40/+20 from Invisibility. If he moves AND sings, both would apply.
You might be able to discern the general area in which the bard is with an easier check, like the direction, or a 3x3 grid or something, IF you succeed on your perception check, which of course is alot easier since the bard is making lots of noise, but not the exact spot.
Even if you should make out his position, that is not the same as breaking invisibility. If the bard shuts up for a moment and moves, you won't have an idea where he is now.
Also, obviously I'd rule that any Bardic Performance that relies on visual components fails automatically.
I'm going to have to ask you to give a rules quote for this.-Singing at the level of a bardic performance (even for humming) requires a bit more movement than standing quietly in the corner and breathing. You need to BREATHE deeply move your arms, change your posture etc.So in order to get the +40 bonus, you aren't even allowed to breathe, blink, or look in a different direction?The singing bard is not holding still, hence +20 instead of +40.
There isn't one, beacause they've said moving, not distance. I don't consider someone singing to be holding still. Rules lawyering? Mayby. But a 40 DC to figure out where the singing is coming from is ludicrously hard.
You'll find that there is no such rule. Again, there's actually no rule that you even have to have any ranks in Perform skills to use bardic performances
Bardic Performance: A bard is trained [b]to use the Perform skill[b] to create magical effects on those around him, including himself if desired. He can use this ability for a number of rounds per day equal to 4 + his Charisma modifier. At each level after 1st a bard can use bardic performance for 2 additional rounds per day. Each round, the bard can produce any one of the types of bardic performance that he has mastered, as indicated by his level.
-He may not be trained but he's using the skill.
and the only components mentioned in bardic performances are "auditory" or "visual", which are almost always mutually exclusive. An auditory performance has no motion component, by the rules. Certainly nothing as dramatic as you claim. You can, in fact, just stand in the corner and hum to yourself.There is no requirement for the bard to perform loudlyor use exaggerated motions, for visual performances). If they only care about the guy next to them being affected by their performance, they can whisper.
No, the person you're doing the performance for needs to hear you, probably over the sound of something trying to eat his face.
If a bardic performance has audible components, the targets must be able to hear the bard for the performance to have any effect,
The easiest way to find the bard once you have the general area is to walk through the general area and wait till you bump into something
When the rules talk about "moving" the refer to "character starts the round in square A and ends it in square B, where A and B are different squares", not simply "he blinked, and moved his eyelids".
When the rules talk about "moving" the refer to "character starts the round in square A and ends it in square B, where A and B are different squares", not simply "he blinked, and moved his eyelids".
If you want to make that case do so, but please stop deliberately misrepresenting my position. I did not say, hint, imply,or otherwise suggest that you lost the extra 20 for blinking your eyelids. I am saying that for a bardic performance the bard has to "get down with it and get funky" and thats not holding still.
If an invisible Bard is standing perfectly still, he gets +40 to his DC, add to that the result of his stealth check, and that's the DC the Bard's allies need to beat to hear the Bard and gain benefit from his performance.
Seems pretty straightforward to me.
If an invisible Bard is standing perfectly still, he gets +40 to his DC, add to that the result of his stealth check, and that's the DC the Bard's allies need to beat to hear the Bard and gain benefit from his performance.
Seems pretty straightforward to me.
the rules are straight forward
it doesnt mean they make any sense
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Even if you should make out his position, that is not the same as breaking invisibility. If the bard shuts up for a moment and moves, you won't have an idea where he is now.
You mean "if the bard stop his performance".
I find the idea of stealthy performing ludicrous. To influence someone you need to be heard. No way you can do that and claim to use stealth.
If an invisible Bard is standing perfectly still, he gets +40 to his DC, add to that the result of his stealth check, and that's the DC the Bard's allies need to beat to hear the Bard and gain benefit from his performance.
Seems pretty straightforward to me.
LOL
+1
Oh, it's not stealth, its magic.
Sorry, but you can't apply real world logic to a world where people fly, shoot fire out of their arses and can literally have a chat with god.
Yes, noone claims that the bard is completely unfindable, and that noone knows he's there. EVERYONE knows he's there.
But just because he sings does not mean you SEE him too, because thats where the invisibility comes in.
Singing does not make you easier to see. Moving around apperently does, maybe because you see some sort of distortion in the air or because you disturb some dust on the ground etc.
Because the bard sings the other guy gets a huge bonus to his perception check, however that doesn't make the bard any less invisible.
Make a check, have someone blindfold you, then someone starts talking or singing, somewhere. Let's see if you can say "That guy is exactly 23 feet in THAT direction" and point exactly at him.
You might be able to point at him or his general direction, but I don't think you get the distance even remotely right.
Singing does not make you easier to see.
No one is claiming this easier.
Because the bard sings the other guy gets a huge bonus to his perception check, however that doesn't make the bard any less invisible.
No one is saying the bard is not invisible they're saying that the bard is eminently FINDABLE.
Make a check, have someone blindfold you, then someone starts talking or singing, somewhere. Let's see if you can say "That guy is exactly 23 feet in THAT direction" and point exactly at him.
You might be able to point at him or his general direction, but I don't think you get the distance even remotely right.
As mentioned above, hitting someone with a broom while blindfolded was a piece of cake, and thats when they were trying to be quiet, NOT singing.
The amalgamation of listen and spot into perception was overall a good idea but it did come with a few quirks like this.
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A bard generally cannot use stealth while doing bardic performance. From the Stealth rules:
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast.
If using bardic performance while invisible the only way to use it is with an auditory component. If a creature can hear you (i.e. observe you via hearing) then you cannot use stealth. Now if a bard is doing a whispering oratory to help the rogue next to him then a perception check may be required. "hear details of a whispered conversation", otherwise the DC is 0 for hear the details of a conversation. Any fool orc can make that check.
However the bard in this case is invisible. So the perception DC is 0+20=20 (or if whispering 15+20=35) Distance and other perception modifiers count here but are ignored.
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People need to remember that Perception is not Spot; it's all five senses, not just sight. PRD: "Your senses allow you to notice fine details and alert you to danger. Perception covers all five senses, including sight, hearing, touch, taste, and smell."
Invisibility, on the other hand, only affects sight. So noisy or scent are still going to give you away. Holding still don't make you any less visible, it reduces the chance your going to make a noisy that's going to give you away. Sing, IMHO, is automatically going to give you away to a certain extent. You can still have your "I'm hard to see" +20 and concealment, but no way +40.
The spell itself even says that certain actions or conditions can make invisibility irrelevant and detection automatic: (PRD) "Of course, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable (such as swimming in water or stepping in a puddle). If a check is required... " If a check is required - because sometimes it's not, like when Scent is used within 5'. I'll give you the "I'm hard to see" +20, but I don't have to, not if can't even try to Stealth (see Karkon's reply) because, while you're inVISIBLE, you are clearly AUDIBLE.
People need to remember that Perception is not Spot; it's all five senses, not just sight. PRD: "Your senses allow you to notice fine details and alert you to danger. Perception covers all five senses, including sight, hearing, touch, taste, and smell."
Invisibility, on the other hand, only affects sight. So noisy or scent are still going to give you away. Holding still don't make you any less visible, it reduces the chance your going to make a noisy that's going to give you away. Sing, IMHO, is automatically going to give you away to a certain extent. You can still have your "I'm hard to see" +20 and concealment, but no way +40.
The spell itself even says that certain actions or conditions can make invisibility irrelevant and detection automatic: (PRD) "Of course, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable (such as swimming in water or stepping in a puddle). If a check is required... " If a check is required - because sometimes it's not, like when Scent is used within 5'. I'll give you the "I'm hard to see" +20, but I don't have to, not if can't even try to Stealth (see Karkon's reply) because, while you're inVISIBLE, you are clearly AUDIBLE.
There's a simple solution:
Ventriloquism
School illusion (figment); Level bard 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, F (parchment rolled into cone)
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect intelligible sound, usually speech
Duration 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw Will disbelief (if interacted with); Spell Resistance no
You can make your voice (or any sound that you can normally make vocally) seem to issue from someplace else. You can speak in any language you know. With respect to such voices and sounds, anyone who hears the sound and rolls a successful save recognizes it as illusory (but still hears it).
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Oh, it's not stealth, its magic.
Sorry, but you can't apply real world logic to a world where people fly, shoot fire out of their arses and can literally have a chat with god.Yes, noone claims that the bard is completely unfindable, and that noone knows he's there. EVERYONE knows he's there.
But just because he sings does not mean you SEE him too, because thats where the invisibility comes in.Singing does not make you easier to see. Moving around apperently does, maybe because you see some sort of distortion in the air or because you disturb some dust on the ground etc.
Because the bard sings the other guy gets a huge bonus to his perception check, however that doesn't make the bard any less invisible.
Make a check, have someone blindfold you, then someone starts talking or singing, somewhere. Let's see if you can say "That guy is exactly 23 feet in THAT direction" and point exactly at him.
You might be able to point at him or his general direction, but I don't think you get the distance even remotely right.
The skill is perception. Not spot.
If a guy is chanting it is easier to perceive him and find his location.
He is no easier to see, but finding the square where he is is way easier. He need to be heard to use his magic.
Ventriloquism
Good idea.
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Invisibility is total concealment. Concealment allows you to use Stealth. Ergo, an invisible performing bard can use Stealth.A bard generally cannot use stealth while doing bardic performance. From the Stealth rules:
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth.
James made the same point but I will reiterate it. The rule clearly states that if you are observed with ANY sense (touch, taste, smell, hearing, sight, oddball abberration sense) then you cannot use stealth. The rule is clear on that. If you have 100% cover behind a wall but are constantly singing a song that the enemy can hear then you are not using stealth.
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That is not the case I am making. Bardic performance requires for other people to hear you. If enemies are within the area of noise effect, whatever size that may be then they can observe you via perception. You are not being audibly stealthy. Audibly speaking you are standing in broad daylight.
According to the stealth rules you then cannot use stealth.
Now In this case the bard is also invisible so he gains benefits from that. The enemy still needs to find you via perception to attack but that perception does not need to overcome the bard's stealth roll as he forfeits it by performing.
For enemies outside the noise radius the bard can still gain all the benefits of stealth.
Of course this asks the question of what the noise radius really is. I think that it is twice the distance between the bard and the furthest affected ally. I have no rule to support that but I think it is a reasonable call.
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I would like to give a different example on stealth and noise. Let us take a rogue stealthily stalking down a corridor. His skill and roll are high enough that no one will ever perceive him.
He is about 40 feet from some orcs and stubs his toe. He stars to loudly (raised voice not yelling) curse a blue streak. Is he still stealthy? No. This is because his noise level went from sneaky to bargaining in the markets.
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If an invisible Bard is standing perfectly still, he gets +40 to his DC, add to that the result of his stealth check, and that's the DC the Bard's allies need to beat to hear the Bard and gain benefit from his performance.
:)
But that is pretty much the point. You can't aim sound. And you can't exactly specify the volume either; you can't say "I speak so that some 5' away can hear me, but someone 10' away can't." Krakon's ally-distance-x2 makes a lot of sense.
Actually, it's almost perfect. Normal DC for hearing a whisper is 15. Adding perception penalties for distance (+1/10'), that's going to be DC16 at 10', DC17 at 20', DC18 at 30', DC19 at 40', DC20 at 50', etc.
So the opponent makes 1st Perception check to hear your whispering bard. If he fails, great, your invisibility isn't blown. Opponent gets a 2nd Perception check vs. your Stealth +40. But if he makes the 1st Perception, he hears you, and can pin-point you as a move action vs. DC20 (0 [conversation] +20 [from invisibility]). And here's the rub - technically, you shouldn't know whether he heard you or not, at least not until his mace slaps you upside your invisible, whispering head.
Reasonably, the sound made by a singing bard, as with any other sound, would have a DC to hear it. That DC would be the same for allies as it is for enemies (barring distance and other conditional modifiers.)
Once an enemy succeeds it's check to hear the bard, the bard is "observed" and can no longer use stealth.
So, much like a tree in the woods, a singing bard can use stealth so long as nobody actually hears him.
I'm the orc, looking for the invisible, singing bard. This round I move in the direction of the singing until I realize, because I have big green hairy ears, that he's right in front of me. There, I've found him. So I swing my big, nasty axe to end the horrible noise.
Of course, he's invisible, so I still have a 50% miss chance...
Invisibility is total concealment. Concealment allows you to use Stealth. Ergo, an invisible performing bard can use Stealth.
[rules lawyer hat on]Conversely, Invisibility is a form of stealth and only works by stealth checks. It is a +40 to stealth checks while not moving and a +20 to stealth checks while moving. It is impossible to stealth while performing some actions (including singing). Therefore it is impossible to be invisible while singing.[/rules lawyer hat off]
I think a reasonable comprimise can be found between the two extremes.
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As soon as he starts yelling 'here I am' however stealth he was, he is now HEARDOnce again with the blatant mischaracterization of bardic performance. Please cite anywhere in the rules that even implies a loud volume. The only requirement for aural bardic performances is that the target must be able to hear the performance. Not even hear it clearly -- just hear it.
It say it here:
If a bardic performance has audible components, the targets must be able to hear the bard for the performance to have any effect, and such performances are language dependent.
For the definition of language dependent, from Magic:
(Descriptor)Appearing on the same line as the school and subschool, when applicable, is a descriptor that further categorizes the spell in some way. Some spells have more than one descriptor.
The descriptors are acid, air, chaotic, cold, darkness, death, earth, electricity, evil, fear, fire, force, good, language-dependent, lawful, light, mind-affecting, sonic, and water.
Most of these descriptors have no game effect by themselves, but they govern how the spell interacts with other spells, with special abilities, with unusual creatures, with alignment, and so on.
A language-dependent spell uses intelligible language as a medium for communication. If the target cannot understand or cannot hear what the caster of a language-dependant spell says, the spell fails.
A mind-affecting spell works only against creatures with an Intelligence score of 1 or higher.
so your bard can't be humming, whistling, mumbling and so on. He is singing in a comprehensible language and need to be heard clearly by the people he mean to affect.
If you prefer he can use oratory, recite poetry and so on, but he still need to be heard and comprehended.
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That is not the case I am making. Bardic performance requires for other people to hear you. If enemies are within the area of noise effect, whatever size that may be then they can observe you via perception. You are not being audibly stealthy. Audibly speaking you are standing in broad daylight.
It may not be your intent, but that is indeed the case you are making. You are saying that, if you make a noise -- any noise -- while using the Stealth skill, whatever hears that noise automatically knows exactly where you are.
To respond to your position: the rules say exactly that. If you are using stealth and a creature perceives you (perception) then they see you. Read the rules. It is a contested roll. In this case my argument is that the bard is in fact not using stealth at all.
The bard wants to be heard. He desires to be heard. For performance to work he must be heard. By making himself so easily heard he does not, cannot, gain benefits from stealth.
If he stood there invisible and tried to be quiet (but still made some noise--living, breathing, a foot scuff, perhaps even very quietly talking to himself) he can still gain the benefits of stealth.
Let us look from your position. What level of noise invalidates stealth? Are you saying that I can sneak down the hall while yelling and still be considered stealthy?
How about this.
A singing bard can be found by anyone with hearing the same way that a creature with scent can find any invisible opponent. Invisibility renders you undetectable by sight, not not sound, smell, or touch. Its easy to note the general direction of the noise, and when you're within 5 feet you know the square.
I'd just call a perception check DC 20 + 1 per 10 feet distance to pinpoint as a move action, otherwise treat it as scent like BNW suggested seems a fine rule,I'd kick whispering bard performance out off the window just like spellcasting I'd rule a clear voice is required to have it take effect
If you imagine a 3 x 3 square with you blindfold in the middle one and someone talking, never mind 'performing, in one of the adjacent squares, youd know which one they where in
Unfortunately the more I play PF the more the rules becoming really hard to envisage in the real world
I know we should all bite our tongues and say 'its just a game, lets play by the rules' but it does seem to be getting harder and harder
The bigger the rulebook, the bigger the number of quandries, IMO
If you imagine a 3 x 3 square with you blindfold in the middle one and someone talking, never mind 'performing, in one of the adjacent squares, youd know which one they where in
Unfortunately the more I play PF the more the rules becoming really hard to envisage in the real world
I know we should all bite our tongues and say 'its just a game, lets play by the rules' but it does seem to be getting harder and harder
The bigger the rulebook, the bigger the number of quandries, IMO
Despite all the fun arguments about rules in this forum, dont forget to just play the game. If you are not sure how to handle a situation just rule it one way or another and continue playing, afterwards you can examine it more carefully. The rules are ultimately there to help you play the game not smother it to a halt, for players that might mean they will just have to roll along with the GM ruling sometimes.
I'm fine with that (again, assuming a relevant Perception check is made to detect the sound at all)
But at what DC? If you make it a DC 40 You may as well make it impossible, because most of the time you're going to be playing at lower levels where unless you specifically make a character to make perception rolls.( yes yes yes insert your half elf with the bunny familiar here.)
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I'm just arguing against the lunatics that think making any noise instantly pinpoints your square at any range to everything, or that you absolutely cannot use bardic performance while stealthed.
It is pathetic how you always return to this straw man argument.
Using stealth is =/= from making sound you wish to be heard.And another little thing in the PRD:
Invisible creature is... Perception
In combat or speaking –20
That is a -20 to the DC of percept them, both to detect their presence and to pinpoint them.
That make the standard rolls DC 0 to detect the presence of a invisible guy within 30' and DC 20 to pinpoint him.
Those DC are based on this:
A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 Perception check. The observer gains a hunch that “something's there” but can't see it or target it accurately with an attack. It's practically impossible (+20 DC) to pinpoint an invisible creature's location with a Perception check.
I'd just call a perception check DC 20 + 1 per 10 feet distance to pinpoint as a move action,
Sigh
Action: Most Perception checks are reactive, made in response to observable stimulus. Intentionally searching for stimulus is a move action.Try Again: Yes. You can try to sense something you missed the first time, so long as the stimulus is still present.
The first try is "free" (reactive). If you fail you can try again as a move action.
And no, it is not DC 20 + 1 per 10' distance. It is DC 20 + 1 per 10 feet distance above 30'. (read the quote a few row above)
Perform Ventriloquism end the whole debate ....
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Perform Ventriloquism end the whole debate ....
Ventriloquism is a figment and:
Figment: ...
Because figments and glamers are unreal, they cannot produce real effects the way that other types of illusions can. Figments and glamers cannot cause damage to objects or creatures, support weight, provide nutrition, or provide protection from the elements. Consequently, these spells are useful for confounding foes, but useless for attacking them directly.
So a performance made by a figment can convey the effects of Bardic performance?
I doubt it.If it can a high level bard will prepare multiple Programmed image with already prepared performances to inspire courage in his allies and get them activated as needed.
If you need inspire courage say 1;
If you need Inspire competence say 2;
If you need Dirge of doom say 3.
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