Hey, all. I could use a little advice.
I have seen people regularly say that you shouldn't give up caster levels by dipping into other classes whenever possible. But is it the actual caster level that is the worst thing to lose, or is it the spell slots & known spells gained?
I'm contemplating a dip into Fighter for my Metal Oracle to get Spring Attack by 5th level. I am tempted to take another level later for the +1 BAB, d10, and the extra feat ... and I could take the trait that adds +2 to my caster level, Magical Knack.
I'd still be down slots ... and it'd take longer for me to earn higher level spells ... but I'd like to know what it is that is really the worst thing, for casting characters, to lose.
Thanks!
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If you are going to focus on a more martial character and dipping into fighter is even a consideration for the feats (And BAB) then you should just do it. You are going to miss the second level spells (Which you won't be able to get until level 5 at least with 2 levels of fighter) for a while, it's a tradeoff.
To a certain degree, there are ways to make up for a loss of the actual caster level itself (like magical knack), but the biggest loss is not only the slots/spells known lost, but the delayed progression. The Mystic Theurge is a great example of there that gets problematic. At level 7, they'd still only be casting a handful of 2nd level spells, while a pure caster would be using 4th level spells. A dip of one level here or there doesn't generally gimp a build too bad, but spontaneous casters tend to suffer the most from said dipping, since you're already limited in spells known and a level of progression behind prepared casters.
Besides both the loss of spells known, and caster level, consider also:
* The loss of revelation powers
* The slowed advancement of your curse
* The slowed advancement of your other revelation abilities (remember, these are based on your Oracle level, not on your character level). So, when the Metal Oracle's revelation, Armor Mastery, says: At 10th level, and again at 15th level, these bonuses increase by 1., that means that at Oracle level 10, and Oracle level 15.
* You'll never get the final revelation (though, unless this is to be a very long campaign, this may not be an issue)
That's not to say that a fighter dip is never useful in these circumstances, but be sure to take all of these things into account.
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Using PFS play as a example. Level cap is 12.
Oracle 12
BAB 9 Fort 4 Ref 4 Will 8
Spells Known:
12th 9(0) 5(1st) 5(2nd) 4(3rd) 3(4th) 2(5th) 1(6th)
Revelations: 4 : Looking at the last two levels only:
Iron Skin You must be at least 11th level.
Iron Weapon At 11th level, the blade is made of adamantine.
Oracle 10 Fighter 2
BAB 9 Fort 6 Ref 3 Will 7
Spells Known:
10th 9(0) 5(1st) 4(2nd) 3(3rd) 2(4th) 1(5th)
Gain two combat feats. And bravery +1
Oracle 12 VS Oracle 10/Fighter2
BAB is the same. Fort +2 Ref -1 Will -1
Spells Known:
-1 2nd level not a great lose.
-1 3rd level this is a lose with the number of good spells at this level.
-1 4th level this is a lose with the nuber of good spells at this level
-1 5th level Only a few spells this level worth it.
-1 6th level Not haven heal for two more levels is going to realy hurt. This is one spell that is a must for higher level play.
Revelations:
Iron Skin: is a good revelations not a must have.
Iron Weapon: not that good to start with.
12 Oracle: Wins on crunch. Not on what you want the character to be like.
12 Oracle: Wins on crunch.
Well, probably. But, those two feats could make a big difference if the character favors melee, so you need to take that into account, too.
As well as:
Dance of the Blades (Ex): Your base speed increases by 10 feet. At 7th level, you gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls with a metal weapon in any round in which you move at least 10 feet. This bonus increases by +1 at 11th level, and every four levels thereafter. At 11th level, as a move action, you can maneuver your weapon to create a shield of whirling steel around yourself until the start of your next turn; non-incorporeal melee and ranged attacks against you have a 20% miss chance while the shield is active. You must be wielding a metal weapon to use this ability.
You'd probably take this for the move speed, if nothing else. But, you'd lose out on the 11st level slight boost, and the whirling thing (though that's not very good).
On the plus side for the fighter dip, you wouldn't have to take:
Skill at Arms (Ex): You gain proficiency in all martial weapons and heavy armor.
to use the various blades available to you.
I might even recommend that just a single level dip might be the best bet, all round. Fighter 1 / Oracle 11, for the 12th level build. Casting wise, you'd lose out only on the 6th level spells. Which is bad, but may be worth giving up for the feat, plus armor and weapon proficiency. Overall, you'd effectively have one *more* revelation with this build than with the pure Oracle build, since you wouldn't need the Skill at Arms one.
I think you're right about it not being worth it, actually, upon further review, because the Metal Oracle only has a couple revelations that are any good.
I think you're right about it not being worth it, actually, upon further review, because the Metal Oracle only has a couple revelations that are any good.
I think there are some that are good flavor. This wasn't a character built with power gaming in mind ... I know there are more powerful mysteries. I actually like Metal Weapon and Dance of Blades quite a bit.
Thanks for the quick input, everyone. It's nice to have someone with more experience point out some character build issues.
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What you run in to thow is.
Metal Revelations:
Armor Mastery: This ability is good. But requires you to split up your ability scores to be useful. With low point buy it's not nearly as useful. With rolled or high point buy I can see it being good to have.
Dance of the Blades : high on flavor. The only usefull part is the +10 ft of base move.
Iron Constitution : Realy any one who is going to take this is going to take great fortatude first over useing a revelation to do the same thing.
Iron Skin: good flavor and cruch on this one.
Iron Weapon: flavor only feat. low level useful. High level junk.
Riddle of Steel: flavor. Can I get some cool aid?
Rusting Grasp: So your going to let me destory any thing useful i could have looted. Realy thanks? And magic items are immune so it's only usefull up to level 5. WOW just WOW.
Skill at Arms: If your making a martial oracle this is one you start with.
Steel Scarf: One very good power full of flavor and crunch.
Vision in Iron: A good power not great but good.
Must have revelations: 3
Dance of Blades, Skill at Arms, Steel Scarf
Good revelations: 3
Armor Mastery, Iron Skin, Vision in Iron
What where you smoking and can I have some: 4
Iron Constitution, Iron Weapon, Riddle of Steel, Rusting Grasp,
I think you're right about it not being worth it, actually, upon further review, because the Metal Oracle only has a couple revelations that are any good.I think there are some that are good flavor. This wasn't a character built with power gaming in mind ... I know there are more powerful mysteries. I actually like Metal Weapon and Dance of Blades quite a bit.
Yeah. Most DMs won't do this, I know, but I actually have, and continue to offer to consider, boosting the power of abilities that my characters want for flavor, but that kinda suck. Metal Weapon would be ripe for this.
You may try it, honestly: "Hey, this ability is good flavor, but is absolutely useless at high level. Would you consider giving it a little bump?" Most DMs will say no, but some won't, and you've got nothing to lose.
Yeah. Most DMs won't do this, I know, but I actually have, and continue to offer to consider, boosting the power of abilities that my characters want for flavor, but that kinda suck. Metal Weapon would be ripe for this.
You may try it, honestly: "Hey, this ability is good flavor, but is absolutely useless at high level. Would you consider giving it a little bump?" Most DMs will say no, but some won't, and you've got nothing to lose.
Just curious, why do you think Metal Weapon is so bad at higher levels? It eventually caps at a +3 cold iron adamantine melee weapon of your choice that will stick around for 1 minute/level ...
I actually think the first 4 spells of the Metal mystery are pretty nice: lead blades is usually ranger only, heat metal is druid only, I think, keen edge is never a bad thing, versatile weapon will be nice if I actually start to carry around a really good weapon.
But if I can snap my fingers and bring a magical weapon to my hand anywhere except the Mana Wastes & an antimagic field ... I can spend my cash on something other than a very expensive weapon, and get by with a +1 weapon I can magick up as I see fit.
Wealth by level 19 685,000GP
+10 Weapon 200,000GP so 1/3 of your gp for.
+5 Holy Gost Touch(Weapon) of Shocking Burst
Or a +3 weapon ?
^ This, basically. If you're going to be a largely melee character, a +3 weapon will not cut it, period. The only time you'd ever end up using that ability at high level is if you lost your real weapon, for whatever reason.