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I noticed that Ride now takes an Armor Check Penalty. In 3.5, it didn't, except to do a quick dismount.
I did some searching, and I found this post from 2008:
It looks like during their rules simplifying, they globally applied the armor check penalty to all Ride checks.
A 5th level Paladin gets her mount. Assuming she spent one of her 2+INT skill points a level on Ride, every level, she'd have a bonus of 8+DEX. Assuming one of the worst AC penalties (Half plate and a large shield), the Paladin has an AC Penalty of -9. Assuming the Paladin has a +1 DEX bonus (the most you can get out of most Heavy armors), they have a net +0 to Ride checks.
Simply guiding with her knees fails a quarter of the time, and she loses one of her hands.
If she wants her mount to attack, she will fail half of the time.
Using the mount as cover or trying to make it jump are very unlikely to succeed. For some reason, spurring your mount also takes the AC penalty, and is just as hard.
Good luck rolling that 20 for a fast dismount.
Was this an oversight, or an intentional reduction in power for heavily-armored mounted warriors?
I talked to my DM, and he said it seemed pretty terrible. I'm bringing it here for discussion so we can come up with a decent house rule at the very least, and maybe get some errata from Jason & crew.
For reference, here are the 3.5 rules:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/ride.htm
And here are the PFRPG Rules:
Pretty sure the rule change was intentional. The DCs of Ride checks are fairly low generally, and in non-combat situations one can simply Take 10.
For a 5th level character, they're more likely to be wearing MW full plate and MW shield (only -6 ACP), but the point is valid - they will have a small bonus generally.
To me, that seems rather appropriate. I got to see some jousting this past February, and I can't even imagine those guys "guiding with knees" instead of holding the reins for anything more complicated than moving straight ahead. Heavy armor is very restrictive, and I would imagine (without any personal experience) that it impedes easy communication between rider and mount.
For a Paladin, they do have the advantage of having a very smart mount, which can make some things easier.
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I agree with Majuba - I don't think there's any problem with a player having to decide between wrapping themselves in a protective metal ball and being able to use advanced riding techniques like a pro. If you want to do more than ride around, then invest in lighter armor and a higher DEX, maybe even skill focus.
The image of an armor-clad paladin riding in to battle, his mount's hooves slamming small goblins, is fairly iconic. This seems like a fairly big change from that, and doesn't make it nearly as possible.
There are certainly benefits from fighting on your mount, but there are also many disadvantages. Being pretty much unable to handle your mount properly in combat seems like a really harsh penalty.
Yes, the Paladin's mount is intelligent (minimum INT is 6), but that has no bearing on Ride checks. Even a Druid who can buff the mount's INT and actually talk with it doesn't get any benefit to Ride.
The Masterwork comment makes sense, but it still seems prohibitive. Even a -6 when your bonus is a +8 or 9 is fairly serious. I guess you could also get Mithril items, reducing the penalty by 4 on each, for a total of -5 in Full Plate with a Large Shield.
For what it's worth, I'm playing a first-level Druid who uses her companion as a mount. In Wooden Leather armor and a Large shield, I only have a -3. With Masterwork items and Darkwood, I can completely negate the penalties.
I'm just curious if this was fully intended, and keeping an eye on it in case I ever decide to play a Paladin in the future.
If you really want to be a Shining Knight, play a Shining Knight archetype Paladin. Otherwise, don't dump Dex. You can still apply your full Dex to Ride even in full plate. Also, buy a military saddle for +2 circumstance bonus to Ride checks related to staying in the saddle. Get Skill Focus (Ride) and your worries are mostly over.
At 3rd level, by which time I expect a Paladin would be in full plate, and with a light steel shield (since heavy shields don't let you cast with that hand) would have a -7 armor check penalty to Ride.
So, 3 ranks in Ride, plus 3 for class skill, plus 2 for a decent Dex. You're at a +8. You've got two, possibly three feats, one of which, especially if you are human should be Skill Focus (Ride) if you want to be a mounted paladin. So you're looking at a total +4 to your checks after ACP, and +6 for staying in the saddle.
Now, you cannot fail to guide with knees or stay in the saddle (DC 5). You can fight on a 4 or more. Oh, and at this point, you don't have your bonded mount anyway, so let's look at 5th, when you do get it.
5 ranks, 3 class skill, 3 skill focus, 2 Dex. Call it... +1 full plate, masterwork light steel shield. ACP is 5. Your ranks alone negate the ACP, leaving you with a +8, +10 for staying in the saddle.
While the change is done to ride... it was not specifically targeting ride as far as I am aware. They applied an Armor Check Penalty to every skill that is STR or DEX based across the board to make it easier to figure out what has an ACP and what does not.
Once a mount or animal companion has an INT of 3 or more, you do not even need to make most of those checks. After INT three they can learn almost any skill and feat they would be able to use. If they are combat trained and trained for riding... then the only things you need to make ride checks for are things you do... The mount can think and operate properly in most cases without a roll.
When you have a paladin (or any other character that has an animal companion) I believe you get a flat +4 bonus to all checks with them anyway, so do not forget to add that in when you are calculating skills. (I am aware that those target Handle Animal, but if you are directing your mount in combat I believe that allowing that bonus to apply would be fair and appropriate.)
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I noticed that Ride now takes an Armor Check Penalty. In 3.5, it didn't, except to do a quick dismount.
I like the distinction that is made between the heavily armored knight compared to the lightly armored skirmisher or mounted warrior with flexible options. I do think it was intentional and a nice change of pace.
If looking for a house rule, maybe a bonus to ride that scales with ranks for having Mounted Combat would work for you.
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Here's some math, for reference:
If you're a 5th-level Paladin, you really ought to have MW Full Plate and a MW Heavy Shield at worst. If, as the OP strawm- er, suggests, you have non-MW Splint Mail and a non-MW Heavy Shield, you've done something horribly, horribly wrong. So anyway, your actual ACP will be -6.
With 5 ranks in Ride, the class skill bonus of +3, and - let's just say - a +1 DEXmod, you'll have a total bonus of +9.
So all together, you have a net Ride skill of +3. This means that your minimum roll will be a 4, if you roll a natural 1.
Now let's look at the Ride skill:
Check: Typical riding actions don't require checks. You can saddle, mount, ride, and dismount from a mount without a problem.
So as a matter of fact, the iconic "heavily armored champion riding into battle" doesn't even require a check.
Now let's look at what DOES require a check:
Guide with Knees: You can guide your mount with your knees so you can use both hands in combat. Make your Ride check at the start of your turn. If you fail, you can use only one hand this round because you need to use the other to control your mount. This does not take an action.
This is not "normal" riding. This is Legolas riding with no hands so he can shoot people from horseback. Most iconic scenes have the rider using one hand to ride (requiring no check) and chopping people down with the other. But if you DO want to do this trick, it's only a DC 5, and you'll therefore succeed 95% of the time.
Stay in Saddle: You can react instantly to try to avoid falling when your mount rears or bolts unexpectedly or when you take damage. This usage does not take an action.
This one's also a DC 5. So even if your mount gets spooked and would throw you off, or if you get hit with an attack, you still have a 95% chance of staying on.
Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.
Looks like this use of the skill is not just to have your mount attack at all, but to be able to direct it to attack with so little effort that you still have time to make your own attacks. So this is for using your mount to get extra attacks, and even this has only a DC of 10, giving you a 65% chance of free attacks. 35% of the time, you'll have to choose whether you or your mount attacks.
And they just get trickier from there. It looks to me like the armored Paladin can fill the iconic role just fine, while you need to be after some really special tricks before you need to start investing extra resources into your riding aptitude (i.e., Skill Focus, lighter armor, etc).
Hope this was helpful.
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What Jiggy said.
Also, Paladins are perhaps the only iconic armored rider that's even that badly off.
Fighters get Armor Training, which helps out a fair bit.
Barbarians and Rangers only wear Medium Armor, so a -4 Armor Check penalty at worst.
Cavaliers (the iconic mounted armor-wearer) never even recieve Armor Check penalties when riding their mount.
Guide with Knees: You can guide your mount with your knees so you can use both hands in combat. Make your Ride check at the start of your turn. If you fail, you can use only one hand this round because you need to use the other to control your mount. This does not take an action.This is not "normal" riding. This is Legolas riding with no hands so he can shoot people from horseback. Most iconic scenes have the rider using one hand to ride (requiring no check) and chopping people down with the other. But if you DO want to do this trick, it's only a DC 5, and you'll therefore succeed 95% of the time.
If you want to use your weapon and a shield, you need to make this check.
I guess with the advent of the Cavalier class, Paladins don't have to be the iconic mounted warrior. Completely negating the armor check penalty for Ride checks at level 1 is pretty tempting for a dip.
While you're all correct that you can be a "decent" rider (and still fail moderate checks 30% of the time) you completely devote 1 of your 2+INT skill points to ride every single level, as well as take a Feat specifically for ride checks, that seems like a heavy investment, especially considering you're also going to want to take the other mounted feats (Mounted Combat, Ride-By Attack, Spirited Charge, etc).
But sure, if I ever want to play a Paladin, it will be a Paladin X / Cavalier 1.
Also, regarding an intelligent mount, are there any explicit rules about that?
If your Paladin's horse has a 6 INT, do you need to make a Ride check to have it attack with it's hooves? At INT 3, animals understand language. Can you just tell it to do it?
If there are no explicit rules, what Ride checks do you think can be negated by an intelligent mount?
- Guide with knees
- Fight
- Leap (defer to mount's Acrobatics)
That seems about it. Most other things are something the rider does.
Also, there's the Trick Riding feat if you have 9 ranks of Ride (so, 9th level) which lets you skip ride checks with DC 15 or lower, which is everything but leaping off the mount.
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If you want to use your weapon and a shield, you need to make this check.Guide with Knees: You can guide your mount with your knees so you can use both hands in combat. Make your Ride check at the start of your turn. If you fail, you can use only one hand this round because you need to use the other to control your mount. This does not take an action.This is not "normal" riding. This is Legolas riding with no hands so he can shoot people from horseback. Most iconic scenes have the rider using one hand to ride (requiring no check) and chopping people down with the other. But if you DO want to do this trick, it's only a DC 5, and you'll therefore succeed 95% of the time.
I refer you to my above-quoted "you'll succeed 95% of the time" that you seem to have missed.
While you're all correct that you can be a "decent" rider (and still fail moderate checks 30% of the time)...
I refer you to my earlier "that's not normal riding" bit (seriously, how easy should it be to get extra attacks? TWF costs a feat and has penalties, you know) that you similarly seem to have missed.
...you completely devote 1 of your 2+INT skill points to ride every single level, as well as take a Feat specifically for ride checks...
I refer you to my earlier "this is even without getting Skill Focus: Ride" bit that you also seem to have missed.
I guess you must have been skimming.
Really interested in where this thread will go...
I'm seeing first hand the OP's point as I'm playing a low level Paladin right now that is interested in Mounted Combat. Certainly it seems to me to entertain that course I'm forced to take/dip a level in Cavalier. Not to mention committing a third of my skill points & focus on mounted feats. (Leaving me compromised in Dungeon scenarios.)
He's taking it all stoically of course given his family motto "Endurance Overcomes All", though as a player I'm finding it difficult role playing a Paladin-like attitude being what amounts to the groups sidekick. (Granted my ever constant low rolls do contribute to the problem.)
If you want to do riding in dungeons, buy a riding dog and a few potions of reduce person. You take up one square instead of four, and you retain reach with the lance.
-Or get two small riding dogs and use them for slippers.
I refer you to my earlier "this is even without getting Skill Focus: Ride" bit that you also seem to have missed.
I guess you must have been skimming.
Or he didn't want to waste one of the feat starved paladins few, precious feats on skill focus?
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I refer you to my earlier "this is even without getting Skill Focus: Ride" bit that you also seem to have missed.
I guess you must have been skimming.
Or he didn't want to waste one of the feat starved paladins few, precious feats on skill focus?
Bolded a key negation in my sentence. As you can see, I was talking about NOT using one of his few, precious feats on Skill Focus all along. He (and now you) responded to "you can do X without Y" by saying "but I want to do X without Y!". See why I thought maybe he was skimming?
The Advanced Player's Guide has rules for "agile half-plate," which has only a -4 ACP for climbing and jumping checks.
For a while I tossed around the idea of allowing "riding half-plate," which would be essentially the same thing except it has a lowered ACP for riding checks. Doesn't seem like that would be terribly unbalanced.