Would it be possible to create a Celestial Armor that can be worn be an animal companion like a medium-sized small cat?
And how much would it cost? Barding for a medium sized creature costs twice as much as medium sized armor, so I'd say it would cost 22,550 gp.
Sure, I don't see why not. It would cost x2. But, the kicker is the armor proficiency. Animals companions are not proficient with armor and would therefore take penalties on wearing it. Here's a post by James Jacob:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/developerResponseRequestedMountsAndBardingProficiency&page=1#2 4
Since it's special chainmail, you would need the Light Armor Proficiency to work off the -2 penalty to attack and skill rolls.
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Animal companions can take light armor proficiency as a feat. Mithral shirt barding +5 might be a better choice since they cost only slightly more (26,200 gp) and can be used without penalty without the feat. Its maximum AC would be two points lower, though, and a small cat could easily use a celestial armor to its full potential.
However,
The cost for the enchantment shouldn't be doubled. For example, if you made barding out of a chain shirt, you double the cost of the chain shirt, then you can enchant it normally.
Specific magical armors are harder to do because you don't have the cost of the armor vs the cost of the magic. The magic is the same, the armor cost is doubled. Celestial armor seems to be the equivalent of Mithral Chain, so I'd take the cost of Mithral Chain and add it to the cost of the Celestial Armor (thus doubling the cost of the armor portion). Yes, it's gold and silver armor, not mithral, but it's the closest equivalent to calculate the armor cost. So, I'd price it as :
Celestial Armor : 22,400
Celestial Barding : 22,400 + 4,150 (cost of Mithral Chainmail) = 26,550
This works out as assuming the armor itself costs 4,150 and the magic portion costs 18,250. Thus doubling the 4,150 to 8,300 and adding the 18,250 back in again. Remember, the armor is not normal armor, so you don't just double the cost of steel chainmail. You have to double the cost of the gold and/or silver chain itself. The closest to that is Mithral Chainmail, which is 4,150 and doubles to 8,300.
EDIT : The above, assuming mithral costs, includes the MW cost, which would also double, as it's part of the cost of the armor.
Per MDT.
The base armour (as it were) is more expensive, but the enchantment price shouldn't be changed.
Although it looks as though MDT doubles the cost of the Masterworking, whereas I was pretty sure its added afterwards.
"Masterwork Armor"
A masterwork suit of armor or shield costs an extra 150 gp over and above the normal cost for that type of armor or shield.
So work out the 'cost' (armour price x size mod), then add the 150 over and above the normal cost.
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Celestial armor isn't mithral, though, it's made out of gold and silver.
Celestial Armor - Price 22,400 gp; Cost to create 11,350 gp
Mithral Full Plate of Speed- Price 26,500 gp; Cost to create 18,500 gp
The base price of a Mithral Full Plate of Speed includes the price for being made out of mithral, the celestial armor doesn't.
Price of the Celestial Armor: 300 gp (cost of a masterwork chainmail) + 22,100 (cost of enchantment, characters who craft the armor have to pay half)
Price of the Mithral Full Plate of Speed: 10,500 (cost of a mithral fullplate) + 16,000 (cost of enchantment, characters who craft the armor have to pay half)
Celestial armor isn't mithral, though, it's made out of gold and silver.
Celestial Armor - Price 22,400 gp; Cost to create 11,350 gp
Mithral Full Plate of Speed- Price 26,500 gp; Cost to create 18,500 gpThe base price of a Mithral Full Plate of Speed includes the price for being made out of mithral, the celestial armor doesn't.
Price of the Celestial Armor: 300 gp (cost of a masterwork chainmail) + 22,100 (cost of enchantment, characters who craft the armor have to pay half)
Price of the Mithral Full Plate of Speed: 10,500 (cost of a mithral fullplate) + 16,000 (cost of enchantment, characters who craft the armor have to pay half)
If you read what I posted, I said that there is NO WAY to know what the cost of the armor is. The armor is made of gold and/or silver, and is specially made. Specific armor doesn't list the cost of the armor separate from the enchantments. Your position is that the cost of gold chainmail is the same as the cost of steel chainmail?
Let's stop and think about that. 10 pounds of steel equals 10 pounds of gold? Or 10 pounds of silver? Or 10 pounds of mixed gold and silver? No, it doesn't. So doubling the cost of steel chainmail is not doubling the cost of the base armor that celestial armor is made from.
I chose Mithral as the base because it is the closest you can get to what the base armor does. It treats the gold/silver armor as light, increases it's max dex and decreases it's acp.
As to the masterwork doubling or not doubling, it depends on how you define 'cost of base armor'. To me, the cost of chainmail is the cost of chainmail, and the cost of MW chainmail (required for enchanting) is the cost of chainmail + MW cost. So doubling normal chainmail equals 2x chainmail, while doubling the cost of MW chainmail is 2x MW chainmail. You can of course argue the other way of course.
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If you read what I posted, I said that there is NO WAY to know what the cost of the armor is.
And I say extrapolating the cost of the armor from the cost to create the item is a pretty good way of knowing it. If the base armor is more expensive, this is included in the costs to create it (like the Mithral Full Plate of Speed). The Celestial Armor doesn't do this, so it's just a plain masterwork armor.
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Since it's special chainmail, you would need the Light Armor Proficiency to work off the -2 penalty to attack and skill rolls.
Chainmail is classified as medium armor, so it would require Medium Armor Proficiency to avoid the nonproficient penalties.
Light Armor Proficiency and a chain shirt barding, or mithral chain shirt depending on weight issues, would be the best way to go.
If you read what I posted, I said that there is NO WAY to know what the cost of the armor is.And I say extrapolating the cost of the armor from the cost to create the item is a pretty good way of knowing it. If the base armor is more expensive, this is included in the costs to create it (like the Mithral Full Plate of Speed). The Celestial Armor doesn't do this, so it's just a plain masterwork armor.
*sigh* Do whatever you like in your games. You're basically saying that 10 lbs of gold is worth the same as 10 lbs of steel.
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*sigh* Do whatever you like in your games. You're basically saying that 10 lbs of gold is worth the same as 10 lbs of steel.If you read what I posted, I said that there is NO WAY to know what the cost of the armor is.And I say extrapolating the cost of the armor from the cost to create the item is a pretty good way of knowing it. If the base armor is more expensive, this is included in the costs to create it (like the Mithral Full Plate of Speed). The Celestial Armor doesn't do this, so it's just a plain masterwork armor.
Barding for a medium creatures weighs as much as an armor for a medium creature. So, why should it have a higher material cost?
Armor for small creatures weighs only half as much, though, so are you arguing that a celestial armor for a halfling should cost less than a celestial armor for a human? The rules disagree.
Barding for a medium creatures weighs as much as an armor for a medium creature. So, why should it have a higher material cost?
Because barding for medium creatures made from base chainmail is made of steel. S. T. E. E. L. You are using the price from the equipment chapter, which is for steel chainmail to set the price for celestial chainmail's basic chainmail which is made from gold and/or silver. Steel <> silver. Steel <> Gold. Steel <> Silver/Gold alloy. That is why it should have a higher material cost. It has nothing to do with the fact it's barding. It has to do with the fact that Steel Chainmail is cheaper than Gold Chainmail or Silver Chainmail or Gold/Silver Chainmail. The costs for Barding are a factor of the cost of the base armor, and detailed in the equipment chapter.
Do you honestly not see why Steel Chainmail and Gold Chainmail do not cost the same? If so, I will happily make you 2 dozen $100 bills out of newprint and crayon, and trade them to you for 2 dozen real $100 bills. After all, both are made of paper, so they should be equivalent value right?
Armor for small creatures weighs only half as much, though, so are you arguing that a celestial armor for a halfling should cost less than a celestial armor for a human? The rules disagree.
Theoretically, it should. However, again, we can't determine the base cost for the metal suit of gold/silver MW chainmail used in construction, because the rules don't have it spelled out.
Actually, I think by the rules, you can't have Small celestial armor since there's no entry for it, just the medium version. That is, if you want to get all Technically RAW about it.
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Do you honestly not see why Steel Chainmail and Gold Chainmail do not cost the same? If so, I will happily make you 2 dozen $100 bills out of newprint and crayon, and trade them to you for 2 dozen real $100 bills. After all, both are made of paper, so they should be equivalent value right?
Normal steel barding weighs as much as normal steel armor. Why should celestial barding not weigh as much as normal celestial armor?
I am not arguing that 10 lb of steel are worth as much as 10 lb of gold, I'm arguing that 10 lb of gold are worth as much as 10 lb of gold.The price for the material is already included in the cost of celestial armor. Why should a nonhumanoid pay more for the material if the armor is made from the same amount of gold and silver?
You, sir, are making very little sense.
Would it be possible to create a Celestial Armor that can be worn be an animal companion like a medium-sized small cat?
And how much would it cost? Barding for a medium sized creature costs twice as much as medium sized armor, so I'd say it would cost 22,550 gp.
1) Barding for Medium Sized Creature costs 2x as much as for a Medium Sized PC.
Price of the Celestial Armor: 300 gp (cost of a masterwork chainmail) + 22,100 (cost of enchantment, characters who craft the armor have to pay half)
2) You are, see the bolded part above, using the cost for Steel Masterwork Chainmail.
Normal steel barding weighs as much as normal steel armor. Why should celestial barding not weigh as much as normal celestial armor?
I am not arguing that 10 lb of steel are worth as much as 10 lb of gold, I'm arguing that 10 lb of gold are worth as much as 10 lb of gold.
3) No, you are not arguing that. You are arguing that MW Gold Celestial Chainmail costs 300gp, the same as MW Steel Celestial Chainmail (See 1 and 2 above). They do not cost the same, because Gold <> Steel. The problem is, you have to double the cost of the base armor to get the cost of the barding (See 1 above). You are ignoring the fact that you are basing your base cost of armor off MW Steel, instead of MW Gold or MW Silver or MW Gold/Silver.
You, sir, are making very little sense.
Right back at you.
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The price of celestial armor included the cost of the gold and the silver. While nonhumanoid armor and barding costs twice as much as normal armor, its weight is the same.
Celestial Armor: 20 lbs.
Celestial Barding: 20 lbs.
Although celestial armor is described being made out of gold and silver, its base armor does not cost more than normal masterwork chainmail. This is a fact, anyone doubting it is free to check the core rulebook and do the math.
Arguing that it should cost more because of more gold and silver would make sense if the armor would weigh more, but it doesn't.
The price of celestial armor included the cost of the gold and the silver. While nonhumanoid armor and barding costs twice as much as normal armor, its weight is the same.
Celestial Armor: 20 lbs.
Celestial Barding: 20 lbs.Although celestial armor is described being made out of gold and silver, its base armor does not cost more than normal masterwork chainmail. This is a fact, anyone doubting it is free to check the core rulebook and do the math.
Arguing that it should cost more because of more gold and silver would make sense if the armor would weigh more, but it doesn't.
I will stop now, it's obvious you are set on saying that base armor is the armor in the equipment section, not the base armor that the item is made from.
Celestial armor is not made from steel chanimail, it's made from gold/silver chainmail, and the two are not equivalent and don't cost the same. Which was my original point, that the specific magic items don't have sufficient information to know how to double the base price of the armor they are made from in all cases.
Run it however you want in your own game.
yar.
There is no non-magical version of Chaimail in any book I've seen or any special material that it can be made out of that can make a non-magical Light Armor with +6 AC bonus, a max Dex bonus of +8, an ACP of -2, SFC of 15%, and weighs 20 lbs.
(mithral chainmail still needs Medium Proficiency but acts as Light for movement, grants +6C, Max.Dex +5, ACP -0, SFC 20%, weighs 20 lbs)
(Inconsistencies are bolded)
Thus, the base price for non-magical Celestial Armor cannot be based off masterwork OR mithral chainmail... they simply, mechanically, are not the same thing. Non-magical Celestial Armor (Light Armor, +6AC, Max.Dex +8, -2 ACP, 15%SPC) needs to be reverse engineered.
Unfortunately, this can't be done.
The full magical version (+3, Fly 1/day, better than mithral stats) has a value 22400 gp.
+3 has a value of 9000 gp
Fly 1/day has a value of 27000 gp (3x5x1800)
Thus its market value before base item costs should be 36000 gp
Even if we reduce this by 30% for the alignment restriction for the crafter, we still end up with 25200 gp
If one says that the extra +3 to the Max.Dex and the extra -5% to the SFC, and the full Light Armor quality are magical bonuses, then we're even MORE overpriced (and what is the cost of +3 to max dex, -5% to SPC, and Light in all respects? There is no mechanic for this in the crafting rules). This is also James Jacobs point of view on the matter, according to these second-hand quotes.
This is why people say that figuring out the base cost of Celestial Armor is impossible. This is one of those items that DOES NOT follow the crafting rules.
In the end, unless you are the GM, the best solution is: ASK YOUR GM!
(note: the OP in that linked-to-thread did his math wrong. He calculated Fly 1/day without including Caster Level. He did Spell Level x 1800, but the formula is Spell Level x Caster Level x 1800)
In the end, good luck. Ask your GM. Or (as it looks like your leaning, which follows JJ's PoV) treat the "Celestial" of the barding as a magical bonus, thus the base item is in fact regular Chainmail. But then, as mdt is saying, where does the silver and gold come from? What's the cost for THAT?
(another note: JJ also says that being made out of Gold & Silver IS a requirement of Celestial Armor, so it is not possible to make a super version mithral/adamantine/etc celestial mail).
~P
Spelling out the math of what Jadeite is trying to say, since (no offense) he doesn't seem to be effectively getting his point across. Look at this:
Celestial Armor - Price 22,400 gp; Cost to create 11,350 gp
Mithral Full Plate of Speed- Price 26,500 gp; Cost to create 18,500 gp
Normally, the cost to create a magic item is 1/2 the price of that magic item. However, this is only true for the cost of enchanting an item. For example, to create a +1 club from scratch costs 1300gp - 300gp for the masterwork club, and 1000gp for the 2000gp-value enchantment. That club then has a price of 2300gp - slightly less than double the cost to create it.
If you look at the price of the celestial armor versus the cost to create it - and the same for the full plate of speed - you will see that the cost to create is not half the price. The ONLY explanation for this, since the cost to create a magic item is always half the price of that magic item, is that there is a nonmagical component that is being paid for, just like that +1 club.
With a little bit of algebra - or some guess and test - you can find that the "cost to create" for the celestial armor must be 300gp that is not doubled because it's a nonmagical component + 11,050gp that is doubled because it's the cost of the enchantment, giving the full price of 22,400gp. Same with the full plate of speed - a 10,500gp nonmagical component, and a 8000gp cost of enchantment, adding up to a 26,500gp price.
Therefore, in my opinion, it is reasonable to assume that the nonmagical component of celestial armor - i.e. the physical armor itself before you enchant it - has a value of 300gp.
EDIT: I will concede, however, that it makes no sense what-so-ever for gold-and-silver chainmail to be priced the same as regular masterwork chainmail. But the math does seem to indicate that is what the devs used for the price.