Drow in Golarion?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Hey all,

Not an RPG newb (or even a PF newb), but am I am a Golarion newb...

Regarding drow, I note they're not Lawful Evil like they were in D&D 3.5, they're now Chaotic Evil? Is that correct?

Also, what gods (if any) do they worship? In other "worlds" they tend to be pretty straightforward: they worship this deity. In Goloarion are they more diversified?

Any other important changes from 3.5 to PF?

Thanks


They've been Chaotic Evil as long as I can remember, Mr. Count, and I've been killing them since 1E, so that isn't new. They worship demon lords in Golarion, frequently, and various demon lords at that. For other differences, there are now stronger mechanical differences between commoner drow and noble drow, whereas before the differences were often just class levels and equipment based. They also spawned differently:

Spoiler:
Elves that commit irredeemable evil become drow, though they also have drow the regular way too.


Lathiira wrote:
They've been Chaotic Evil as long as I can remember, Mr. Count, and I've been killing them since 1E, so that isn't new.

No way. Drow were always LE in 3.x. The structured drow hierarchies would have collapsed if they were all CE. It's not worth me actually digging out the 3.5 MM's outta boxes, so who knows, mechanically, you might be right. It just seems like such a crazy thought flies in the face of everything I've known.

Thanks for the other info! It basically sounds like a grab bag then. There's not one overarching deity that has a majority lock on the drow?


Actually, my 3.5 MM lists the 1st-level drow warrior as "usually neutral evil."

EDIT: If you believe Wikipedia, they were CE in earlier editions and have never been LE.

Wikipedia wrote:
Originally, drow were chaotic evil in alignment. Beginning with 3rd edition D&D, drow are usually neutral evil.


Joana wrote:

Actually, my 3.5 MM lists the 1st-level drow warrior as "usually neutral evil."

EDIT: If you believe Wikipedia, they were CE in earlier editions and have never been LE.

Wikipedia wrote:
Originally, drow were chaotic evil in alignment. Beginning with 3rd edition D&D, drow are usually neutral evil.

There ya go. I can see NE. I think in my experience they've just always been LE. CE I just can't see though, unless maybe we're talking some small primitive drow tribe wandering the underdark or something.

Anyways...FOCUS! Gods and drow and...GO! :)


Count_Rugen wrote:
Anyways...FOCUS! Gods and drow and...GO! :)

Uh ... Demon Lords. Each house has allegiance to one particular demonic patron. (Hence, the CE alignment. Lolth started out as some sort of spider demon, as I understand, and was also chaotic evil so her priestesses followed suit.) I don't know if the exact breakdown is available in print anywhere but in the Second Darkness adventure path.

EDIT: All right, the Demon Lords are detailed in Lords of Chaos and matched up with their respective drow Houses in AP #15, The Armageddon Echo. You can also find information about the Demon Lords from this page.


Paging through Lords of Chaos, here are some demon lords who specifically mention drow as worshipers:

Abraxas, Master of the Final Incantation
Andirifkhu, the Razor Princess
Cyth-V'sug, Prince of the Blasted Heath
Flauros, the Burning Maw
Haagenti, the Whispers Within
Jubilex, the Faceless Lord
Mazmezz, the Creeping Queen
Nocticula, Our Lady in Shadow
Shax, the Blood Marquis
Socothbenoth, the Silken Sin
Zura, the Vampire Queen

Oh, and regarding drow alignment:

Spoiler:
As I understand it, you can have a society of CE drow. How? They band together because they know that if they go it alone they die. After all, there are aboleth, mind flayers (though not in Pathfinder), derro, duergar, and worse things in the deep places of the world. All of which would happily eat a drow. Oh, and then there are other drow, of course :) So Houses form so that individuals can have some protection while they plot and scheme against each other for greater power. It's been described as not very tightly knit, but it works. Sort of :)


On drow alignment in 3.5e (I knew I had read this somewhere!):

[url=http://www.amazon.com/Underdark-Dungeons-Dragons-Fantasy-Roleplaying/dp/0786941510 wrote:

Drow of the Underdark[/url]]The drow are a highly chaotic, individualistic people, a fact discussed multiple times throughout this chapter. They worship a deity who dwells in the Abyss and is a paragon of chaotic evil. Yet, for all that, the Monster Manual gives drow alignment as "usually neutral evil."

The truth is, the drow are at least somewhat cooperative with one another, almost in spite of their own nature. Their ambitions and desires require that their society remain at least somewhat stable. They employ few true laws, but they are tightly bound to traditions and codes, and even if they follow them primarily out of fear, they follow them nonetheless. It is ironic that a lone drow is likely to drift toward chaos, but that despite their rivalry with one another, the presence of multiple drow in a given community literally forces them into a level of cooperation beyond what truly chaotic individuals would maintain.


Now I'm curious....

2E monster manual lists as CE. Never played 3.x can't help there...

You have to remember the basic rule of the lawful society. Do NOT murder your superiors.

EVERY Drow is just WAITING for the chance to do just that... Drow only rule through strength and fear, certainly not loyalty ;)

They may have an ordered society... but on any given tuesday, an entire social chain could collapse and be rebuilt.


that does not mean you cant have a drow worshiper of the mother of all monsters.

lhamstsu er somesuch.

Mr. Jacobs somewhere here said that she was a deity level demon.....


Booyah! Thanks for this! I highly encourage you to pop it into the drow entry on the PF wiki page.

Thanks to everyone who contributed regarding insight into the age-old Alignment Debate (Drow Edition). Good points all. Food for thought.

Lathiira wrote:

Paging through Lords of Chaos, here are some demon lords who specifically mention drow as worshipers:

Abraxas, Master of the Final Incantation
Andirifkhu, the Razor Princess
Cyth-V'sug, Prince of the Blasted Heath
Flauros, the Burning Maw
Haagenti, the Whispers Within
Jubilex, the Faceless Lord
Mazmezz, the Creeping Queen
Nocticula, Our Lady in Shadow
Shax, the Blood Marquis
Socothbenoth, the Silken Sin
Zura, the Vampire Queen

Oh, and regarding drow alignment:

** spoiler omitted **

Lantern Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Drow are *not* LE, nor have they ever been, except for exceptional individuals.

Having got that out of my system . . .
Drow in Golarion tend to worship various demon lords and, occasionally, chaotic evil deities such as Lamashtu. Hell, I could even see a few devoted to the Horsemen and other daemons, but it'd be a cold day in the Pit before a large group of them followed, say Asmodeus.


Count_Rugen wrote:

CE I just can't see though, unless maybe we're talking some small primitive drow tribe wandering the underdark or something.

Nevertheless, they are CE. CE doesn't preclude organisation. It just means that the organisational structure is probably highly flexible, as power is held by strength, and if you become too weak, or your enemy too strong, he'll supplant you.

In the Forgotten Realms, the CE alignment was explained like this: They were devout followers of the Spider Queen Lolth, which was a Demon Goddess and as such chaos and destruction incarnate. They had rules and social structures, but those were mostly mockeries. The real law was "not get caught breaking those things we pass off as laws". Like when noble houses fought each other. If you wanted to do that, you had to make sure nobody found out about it until after the deed, and that you left no noble members of that house alive to give testimony to your deeds (the word of a commoner wasn't worth a thing). If you were competent enough to pull it off like this, you were off scot free. Everyone pretty much knew it was you, the surviving commoners of the old house were probably added to your house (and mostly happy about it, as they had no loyalty at all to their former mistresses, and working for the winner was always good), and you were given thinly veiled praise. But the pretence for law was satisfied, nobody could accuse you officially.

The drow in Golarion (and "in" pretty much fits, as they are found solely in the Darklands, which are within the planet) are probably similar, except that they're not arachnophiliacs, never heard of Lolth, and worship demon lords (which is how drow did things originally, by the way).

Don't make the error of thinking that chaotic alignments means someone is insane, cannot form social structures, cannot fit in societies, or cannot work with anyone else at all. Or that their acting is random.


Stockvillain wrote:


Drow in Golarion tend to worship various demon lords and, occasionally, chaotic evil deities such as Lamashtu.

Well, Lamashtu is a demon goddess. She was a demon lord (and, in a way, still is) but amassed enough power to make the jump from almost-deity to actual-deity.

It seems that Nocticula isn't far away from that, either.


From a 3.x Underdark splatbook:

The great majority of drow are evil through and through, and most tend toward the chaotic end of the lawful-chaotic spectrum. In general, drow believe in doing what they want to do, when they want to do it.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Chaotic Evil does not automatically mean "Incapable of forming societies."

It merely means, in the case of drow, that the ones who run the place are the the ones with the power. Structured hierarchies can ABSOLUTELY exist in a chaotic evil society—they might have a high turnover of membership, but tradition can work in a chaotic evil society. A society of backstabbers who betray each other often and change allegiances a lot is very much a chaotic society. It's NOT a lawful evil society, where backstabbing and treason and the like is much more rare.


read the Menzoberranzan Driz'zt books to get an idea of how the chaotic society works, they have laws, but constantly circumvent them, when going to war with another house no noble survivors are left to pronounce who the lawbreakers were, which would force the hand of the other houses to destroy the lawbreakers. If everyone knows who destroyed another house and there is no one to accuse the house that did it, it is looked upon with favor by Lolth.

Drow again have NEVER been Lawful. From the original fiend folio to bestiary 1, never has lawful crept into the alignment.


Xaaon of Korvosa wrote:


Drow again have NEVER been Lawful. From the original fiend folio to bestiary 1, never has lawful crept into the alignment.

It makes sense also if you think of them as they are basically evil elves

Elves: ~CG
Drow: ~CE

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