i'm curious about the history of lichdom in Golarion. I know that the big bad Tar-Baphon is frequently mentioned, but is lichdom itself relatively common? is knowledge of the process suppressed by everyone or merely considered highly repulsive? Do commoners know what a lich is and would they hate it on sight?
There was a Thassilonian Runelord dedicated to necromancy. I suspect the lich process is at least that old, which predates Earthfall.
There was a Thassilonian Runelord dedicated to necromancy. I suspect the lich process is at least that old, which predates Earthfall.
hmm...I wonder if lichdom was first introduced by the Azlanti? I guess we'll never know for sure. the hints of what Azlant could do (at least magically speaking) are few and far between. From what I gather though, Azlant magic was a heck of a lot weirder than current magical practices across the inner sea.
also - i'm pretty sure that I don't EVER want to meet a lust magic lich lord.
*shudder*
also - i'm pretty sure that I don't EVER want to meet a lust magic lich lord.
*shudder*
I bet he threw an awesome tea party.
Director of Narrative
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Vile people have been working towards lichdom since they first mastered magic and sought to extend their lives. While Tar-Baphon is the world’s most famous (and likely the most powerful) lich, he is hardly the first one. The final chapter of the Carrion Crown AP will have an article about liches in Golarion, and while I don’t know what stayed in the article and what got cut, I placed the process existing far before Earthfall.
Also, the Whispering Way, the world's foremost experts on attaining lichdom, existed during the Age of Darkness, so the first lich would have to predate the organization.
Vile people have been working towards lichdom since they first mastered magic and sought to extend their lives. While Tar-Baphon is the world’s most famous (and likely the most powerful) lich, he is hardly the first one. The final chapter of the Carrion Crown AP will have an article about liches in Golarion, and while I don’t know what stayed in the article and what got cut, I placed the process existing far before Earthfall.
Also, the Whispering Way, the world's foremost experts on attaining lichdom, existed during the Age of Darkness, so the first lich would have to predate the organization.
interesting. so hidden away somewhere could be a vault or library where a cabal of liches still work dark magics unseen since the fall of Azlant? I wonder...could the whispering way be an ancient lich's idea of 'azlant perfected' (so to speak)?
also...if the process existed way back in the day, then whoever taught it to Tar-Baphon could (in theory) still be around. If the big bad lich dude is merely the front man, then who are the TRUE masters of the Whispering Way!?
I look forward to reading that article on lichdom!
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Director of Narrative
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interesting. so hidden away somewhere could be a vault or library where a cabal of liches still work dark magics unseen since the fall of Azlant? I wonder...could the whispering way be an ancient lich's idea of 'azlant perfected' (so to speak)?
also...if the process existed way back in the day, then whoever taught it to Tar-Baphon could (in theory) still be around. If the big bad lich dude is merely the front man, then who are the TRUE masters of the Whispering Way!?
I look forward to reading that article on lichdom!
Keep in mind that the Whispering Way is fairly uninterested in true leadership. The group is more of a shared philosophy more so than a rigid organization. Sure there are leaders and such, but the Whispering Way is populated by selfish egomaniacs who frequently work on their own eternal projects, all to further an increase in undead. In that, you also get a lot of adherents trying to free Tar-Baphon to help push this agenda. In their utopia, the entire world would be undead; using no resources, easily controlled, and eternal. The article for the Whispering Way is in PF #45, check it out if you haven't already.
Keep in mind that the Whispering Way is fairly uninterested in true leadership. The group is more of a shared philosophy more so than a rigid organization. Sure there are leaders and such, but the Whispering Way is populated by selfish egomaniacs who frequently work on their own eternal projects, all to further an increase in undead. In that, you also get a lot of adherents trying to free Tar-Baphon to help push this agenda. In their utopia, the entire world would be undead; using no resources, easily controlled, and eternal. The article for the Whispering Way is in PF #45, check it out if you haven't already.
I read it - it was very well written. My impression (and I could be wrong here so correct me if I am) is that the Whispering Way functions sort of like a classic 'cell' structure. various cells have the same overall goal but their individual philosophy of how to achieve that goal varies wildly. some are overt and very active, others given to philosophy and research. Conflicts within such a stucture can arise and be exploited...but for the most part, the adherents of the Whispering Way are in agreement with the eventual goal of murdering the world. They just quibble on the details.
That said, there isn't any reason for a group of like minded undead to be out there somewhere cloistered on a private demiplane working on a way to achieve their horrific end game.
Keep in mind that the Whispering Way is fairly uninterested in true leadership. The group is more of a shared philosophy more so than a rigid organization. Sure there are leaders and such, but the Whispering Way is populated by selfish egomaniacs who frequently work on their own eternal projects, all to further an increase in undead. In that, you also get a lot of adherents trying to free Tar-Baphon to help push this agenda. In their utopia, the entire world would be undead; using no resources, easily controlled, and eternal. The article for the Whispering Way is in PF #45, check it out if you haven't already.interesting. so hidden away somewhere could be a vault or library where a cabal of liches still work dark magics unseen since the fall of Azlant? I wonder...could the whispering way be an ancient lich's idea of 'azlant perfected' (so to speak)?
also...if the process existed way back in the day, then whoever taught it to Tar-Baphon could (in theory) still be around. If the big bad lich dude is merely the front man, then who are the TRUE masters of the Whispering Way!?
I look forward to reading that article on lichdom!
I don't know about the using no resources thing, what about all the undead that need to feed?
I'd say you got it right, and yeah, liches are evil, crazy, and essentially immortal, so it makes sense there'd be some cloistered ones experimenting with killing the world.
...and folks think a zombie apocalypse is scary...
hmm. just skimmed the article again. so the Whispering Way sees the death of Aroden as a sign that the time is coming for their 'end game'. personally I think they're wrong but still...as you say, they're nutballs. granted - they're nutballs with access to unstable chemicals and dangerous amounts of necromancy...but nutballs just the same.
incidentally, the chapter in that article on the Whispering Way is kinda scary. particularly the bit about just how the Whispering Way encourages recruits to become liches and what it does to them if they decide to back out of the deal.
I don't know about the using no resources thing, what about all the undead that need to feed?
I don't think insane necromancers out to murder the world are going to be entirely consistent and logical when it comes to hammering out the details of their post-apocalyptic existence. My overall impression is that the best they can come up with is that once everyone is dead then there will finally be peace. Which, while technically true, is probably going to still reduce propety values quite a bit.
On the other hand, if any group out there was the ones to unleash a zombie apocalypse on Absalom, it'd be the Whispering Way.
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I think there'd be a number of liches ticked off if someone started a zombie apocalypse. Not the concept of having a zombie apocalypse, mind you, but the timing. Humans may be weak flesh, filled with base desires and other silliness, but they make more competent research assistants than zombies, especially if you have the carnivorous sort who are more interested in wandering around looking for other humans to eat rather than helping the lich with his maniacal plans.
Basically a zombie apocalypse is untidy and wasteful. If you're going to convert the world into undead, it would be far more elegant and a better use of resources to sort through humanity and cherry pick the ones who would make for better sorts of undead--even a few wizards who might make reasonable fellow liches--rather than doing some mass zombification and having to contend with a sea of drooling idiots.
Before Tar-Baphon there were cyclops liches (like Vordakai) or serpentfolk liches (Thulsa Doom?). I'm not sure if elder things could become liches.
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Creative Director
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Before Tar-Baphon there were cyclops liches (like Vordakai) or serpentfolk liches (Thulsa Doom?). I'm not sure if elder things could become liches.
Anything that can create a lich phylactery (aka any spellcaster) can become a lich.
AKA I suspect there are abolteh and elder thing liches out there.
Anything that can create a lich phylactery (aka any spellcaster) can become a lich.AKA I suspect there are abolteh and elder thing liches out there.
While theoretically possible, I don't think the Aboleth would be all that interested in lichdom tho. they're already basically immortal. I suppose that it would make sense if they wanted to make sure they'd survive another starstone apocalypse then lichdom wouldn't be a bad idea...but I can't see those cold blooded slimy fish sticks as being overly obessed with the idea of becoming undead.
And the concept of an Elder Thing lich is giving me some seriously warped ideas for a side track campaign. don't do that. My players already hate/fear the name Yog-Sothoth now thanks to candelmere island and an unfortunate encounter with a Hound of Tindalos.
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"On how many worlds has it happened? On how many words did death win? How many worlds did the beguiling idea of a cold eternity take hold?
Entire planets of the dead. Zombified animals shambling about in a parody of life, lesser servitor undead toiling for a few ascendant lich-lords. The population slowly dwindling over the eons due to accident, violence, or existential despair.
Until eventually, the final conflagration of egos begins, as the remaining lich lords vie for final control of the world. entire continents eliminated with a few ancient words from dessicated lips, moons called down to crush hemispheres. Until one remains, one immortal being of unliving perfection, with an entire world to himself.
How long do they last? How long can a sentient being exist in solitude? Many would crush their phylacteries after a few million years, moving on to see what long-avoided doom awaits them. It's better than reading the same book again for the 5 billionth time.
Others would leave. pack their libraries in extraplanar mansions, and be off to the void. Perhaps in a great skeletal craft of fire and steel, perhaps simply teleporting a few thousand miles at a time, inching their way across the void in short hops..."
"How long do they last? How long can a sentient being exist in solitude? Many would crush their phylacteries after a few million years, moving on to see what long-avoided doom awaits them. It's better than reading the same book again for the 5 billionth time.
Others would leave. pack their libraries in extraplanar mansions, and be off to the void. Perhaps in a great skeletal craft of fire and steel, perhaps simply teleporting a few thousand miles at a time, inching their way across the void in short hops..."
Or transform themselves into Demiliches and travel the Astral Plane
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Or transform themselves into Demiliches and travel the Astral Plane"How long do they last? How long can a sentient being exist in solitude? Many would crush their phylacteries after a few million years, moving on to see what long-avoided doom awaits them. It's better than reading the same book again for the 5 billionth time.
Others would leave. pack their libraries in extraplanar mansions, and be off to the void. Perhaps in a great skeletal craft of fire and steel, perhaps simply teleporting a few thousand miles at a time, inching their way across the void in short hops..."
Space Liches are cooler.
Actually, Greater Teleport is quite adequate for traveling across the void. Prep nothing but greater teleport, put on a space suit and a ring of sustenance, and some air source, and cast teleport and greater teleport as much as you can. drift for 8 hours, prep your spells, wash rinse repeat.
Actually, Greater Teleport is quite adequate for traveling across the void. Prep nothing but greater teleport, put on a space suit and a ring of sustenance, and some air source, and cast teleport and greater teleport as much as you can. drift for 8 hours, prep your spells, wash rinse repeat.
At that point you might as well extend spell Scry and use interplanetary teleport. Or stutter-warp your way by skimming the Ethereal plane (think of skipping a rock across the surface of a pond).
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Space Liches are cooler.Or transform themselves into Demiliches and travel the Astral Plane"How long do they last? How long can a sentient being exist in solitude? Many would crush their phylacteries after a few million years, moving on to see what long-avoided doom awaits them. It's better than reading the same book again for the 5 billionth time.
Others would leave. pack their libraries in extraplanar mansions, and be off to the void. Perhaps in a great skeletal craft of fire and steel, perhaps simply teleporting a few thousand miles at a time, inching their way across the void in short hops..."
+3. XD
I'm pretty sure Eox is crawling with space liches, void wraiths, and astro-zombies.
And they can stay there, thank you very much.
Space Liches are cooler.
Actually, Greater Teleport is quite adequate for traveling across the void. Prep nothing but greater teleport, put on a space suit and a ring of sustenance, and some air source, and cast teleport and greater teleport as much as you can. drift for 8 hours, prep your spells, wash rinse repeat.
Space liches don't need greater teleport. They just drift for horrific eons, contemplating their dread thoughts with supermortal intellect.
Sort of like byakhee, if byakhee were superintelligent.
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Space Liches are cooler.
Actually, Greater Teleport is quite adequate for traveling across the void. Prep nothing but greater teleport, put on a space suit and a ring of sustenance, and some air source, and cast teleport and greater teleport as much as you can. drift for 8 hours, prep your spells, wash rinse repeat.
Space liches don't need greater teleport. They just drift for horrific eons, contemplating their dread thoughts with supermortal intellect.
Sort of like byakhee, if byakhee were superintelligent.
You underestimate the sentient mind's capacity for boredom. You can only go mad, then go sane, then go mad again so many times before the whole process becomes dreadfully tedious. Inhuman alien monsters evolved for void-travel can manage it, but even Elder Things go into hibernation.
You have to be very stupid to not get bored drifting through space.
"Space, space. So much space, gotta see it all. Play it cool, here come the space cops. SPAAAAAAAAAAAACE!"
I bet he threw an awesome tea party.
also - i'm pretty sure that I don't EVER want to meet a lust magic lich lord.
*shudder*
What would a coffee golem do at a tea party?
But never fear: Lust mages don't do necromancy.
you should blog one up in your spare timeBefore Tar-Baphon there were cyclops liches (like Vordakai) or serpentfolk liches (Thulsa Doom?). I'm not sure if elder things could become liches.Anything that can create a lich phylactery (aka any spellcaster) can become a lich.
AKA I suspect there are abolteh and elder thing liches out there.
James has spare time? o.O
I bet he threw an awesome tea party.
also - i'm pretty sure that I don't EVER want to meet a lust magic lich lord.
*shudder*
What would a coffee golem do at a tea party?
But never fear: Lust mages don't do necromancy.
Oh, they certainly can. "Necromancy" is an abstract thought. By standard issue Golden Dawn hermetic magic, you can conjure up any abstact thought as an elemental composed of that concept. Poets have been doing this for years with abstract thoughts such as Libery, Luck, Hope, and Justice, but there's no reason you couldn't do it with Necromancy.
And once you have "Necromancy" incarnated, the Lust mages (who are embodiments of a completely different abstract thought) can do what they do so well.
And even without bringing up fancy stuff like incarnating abstract thoughts, you're forgetting the business in Faust where Mephistopheles conjures up the shades of the beauties of the past, including Helen of Troy. Lust mages would absolutely love this sort of necromancy.
Oh, they certainly can. "Necromancy" is an abstract thought. By standard issue Golden Dawn hermetic magic
Standard what golden who herwhat magic?
We're talking about Thassalonian Rune Magic. Thassalonian Lust Mages were not allowed to use necromancy. Maybe because even Sorshen drew the line somewhere.
And even without bringing up fancy stuff like incarnating abstract thoughts, you're forgetting the business in Faust where Mephistopheles conjures up the shades of the beauties of the past, including Helen of Troy. Lust mages would absolutely love this sort of necromancy.
First of all, that is bogus necromancy. The real stuff is about liches and zombies and energy drain. Plus, Blaine the Mono was a lot better at that sort of thing.
Standard what golden who herwhat magic?
Oh, they certainly can. "Necromancy" is an abstract thought. By standard issue Golden Dawn hermetic magichermetic order of the golden dawn. its actually a fairly interesting group to read up on and I highly recommend it when you get the chance. all kinds of roleplaying game ideas in there.