OK, I finally get to play a Summoner and I am having a blast with it although there is often a lot to remember when in combat. So far one of my favorite spells is create pit although it is a pain when they make their reflex saves and avoid the pit.
The way my GM and I interpreted the description of the spell is: those that make their reflex saves jump to an adjacent square that was next to where they where and not in the pit, so they technically jump aside.
So I figure, if I managed to get my hands on a Meta-magic rod of widening I would be able to enhance my pit spells to be 20 foot wide instead of 10 feet wide. To me this seems it would be harder to avoid, at least to those in or near the center of the pit.
I feel that if any subjects of such an effected spell would either get no saving throw to avoid falling into the pit if they have no realistic avenue of escape, like being in the center, or the DC of the reflex save would at least be higher for them to get to a safe square to land in.
I guess this would also be brought up into question if two sides of the pit are blocked off by obstructions, such as walls, and they are in the corner. If you applied the same situation to a widen create pit it would probably be even wider, correct?
You`re imagining some great visuals, but the effect is making the spell more powerful.
Raising the DC would also need a Heighten Metamagic, and completely negating a Save is off the books.
Widening the Pit makes it a tougher obstacle for anybody who`s not in it, and lets you trap more enemies inside...
i.e. the Level Adjustment of Widen accounts for those effects, not additional ones.
And really, I don`t even see why you are arbitrarily saying creatures in the center can`t jump to safety... if a character can move 5` for free as a Reflex save, there`s nothing to say they can`t move 20` as Reflex save. The spell directly says a passed Save means you jump to safety... irregardless of distance. On a normal sized Pit spell, this applies just the same to Tiny sized creatures for whom 5` is disproportionately more than it is for Humans, so relative distance compared to Move Speed is irrelevant here... Just like other Save or Suck spells, a passed Save means you are safe.
Widen Spell does not work with the Pit spells.
"You can alter a burst, emanation, line, or spread-shaped spell to increase it's area."
Pit spells have no area.
Widen Spell does not work with the Pit spells.
"You can alter a burst, emanation, line, or spread-shaped spell to increase it's area."
Pit spells have no area.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/metamagic-feats/widen-spell-metamagic---final
Pit spells do have an area, which is 10 foot squared in the opening and 10 deep for every two levels of the caster. They have length, they have width, and they have height. In addition you just need two of those dimensions. Also the spell just requires.
You`re imagining some great visuals, but the effect is making the spell more powerful.
Raising the DC would also need a Heighten Metamagic, and completely negating a Save is off the books.
Widening the Pit makes it a tougher obstacle for anybody who`s not in it, and lets you trap more enemies inside...
i.e. the Level Adjustment of Widen accounts for those effects, not additional ones.And really, I don`t even see why you are arbitrarily saying creatures in the center can`t jump to safety... if a character can move 5` for free as a Reflex save, there`s nothing to say they can`t move 20` as Reflex save. The spell directly says a passed Save means you jump to safety... irregardless of distance. On a normal sized Pit spell, this applies just the same to Tiny sized creatures for whom 5` is disproportionately more than it is for Humans, so relative distance compared to Move Speed is irrelevant here... Just like other Save or Suck spells, a passed Save means you are safe.
Actually I wasn't talking about trying to raised the DC I was just trying to figure out what happens if there is no avenue of escape.
I can imagine the 5 foot step as a reaction not only for verisimilitude but also because in the rules of combat you can make a 5 foot step and still have a full round to act. However can you really imagine a 20 foot reaction? I think most people can jump out of the way 5 feet but not 20. That just throws the verisimilitude right out of the window not to mention goes against the rules because anything more than 5 feet is a full movement action.
As for the spell opening up like you said I guess might pass as an argument but that gets a little to subjective if you ask me. But lets look at it with a little reverse logic. When the spell ends it states that the floor of the pit slowly rises and brings up the contents at it's depths. So if you reverse that the area would then have to drop down only suddenly and fast enough for falling damage which suggests it is instant. It is kind of like video taping it and playing it backwards.
What Talynonyx is saying is that create pit is not a burst, spread, emanation, or line. Thus, widen spell cannot work with it. Does it take up space? Yes. But it's not one of the four listed spatial templates, and so is not eligible for widen spell.
I don`t know about that Ito... the Widen Spell says:
Pit spells definitely have an area, but they aren`t of the four listed types, so it looks like it`s tough luck for them.
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Incidentally, I also don`t know about SKR`s ruling on Widen not applying to lines.
For one, lines are SPECIFICALLY LISTED in Widen Spell.
Secondly, the way the game works, a `Line` spell/effect pretty much DOES have a width, of 5`, since you hit anything in the 5` square it passes thru.
Talynonyx is right, create pit spells cannot be widened.
You`re imagining some great visuals, but the effect is making the spell more powerful.
Raising the DC would also need a Heighten Metamagic, and completely negating a Save is off the books.
Widening the Pit makes it a tougher obstacle for anybody who`s not in it, and lets you trap more enemies inside...
i.e. the Level Adjustment of Widen accounts for those effects, not additional ones.And really, I don`t even see why you are arbitrarily saying creatures in the center can`t jump to safety... if a character can move 5` for free as a Reflex save, there`s nothing to say they can`t move 20` as Reflex save. The spell directly says a passed Save means you jump to safety... irregardless of distance. On a normal sized Pit spell, this applies just the same to Tiny sized creatures for whom 5` is disproportionately more than it is for Humans, so relative distance compared to Move Speed is irrelevant here... Just like other Save or Suck spells, a passed Save means you are safe.
Actually I wasn't talking about trying to raised the DC I was just trying to figure out what happens if there is no avenue of escape.
I can imagine the 5 foot step as a reaction not only for verisimilitude but also because in the rules of combat you can make a 5 foot step and still have a full round to act. However can you really imagine a 20 foot reaction? I think most people can jump out of the way 5 feet but not 20. That just throws the verisimilitude right out of the window not to mention goes against the rules because anything more than 5 feet is a full movement action.
From a verisimilitude point of view, sure, you're right, people aren't going to leap 20 feet to escape the effect. Of course, evasion shouldn't work then either, let alone improved evasion. No saves from fireballs that land right beside you either...sounds like no fun to me, but if that makes your game work better, go for it.
Now let's apply some game logic. If no one in the middle gets a save, then you now can eliminate one combatant per turn who cannot fly, dimension door, teleport, or otherwise translocate themselves from the pit, with no chance of failure whatsoever. An optimized spellcaster can be almost that good with spells that allow saves as is; this would just bypass those annoying rolls of 20 on the saves. Not much difference.
Now apply this idea: would you want this to happen to your character? Over and over again? Starting when casters get the spell? How would people survive to any level other than casters?
I don`t know about that Ito... the Widen Spell says:
Pit spells definitely have an area, but they aren`t of the four listed types, so it looks like it`s tough luck for them.
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Incidentally, I also don`t know about SKR`s ruling on Widen not applying to lines.
For one, lines are SPECIFICALLY LISTED in Widen Spell.
Secondly, the way the game works, a `Line` spell/effect pretty much DOES have a width, of 5`, since you hit anything in the 5` square it passes thru.
Another word for emanation is emergence which is the act of coming (or going) out; becoming apparent. Sounds pretty close to what is happening with the spell if you ask me.
Actually I wasn't talking about trying to raised the DC I was just trying to figure out what happens if there is no avenue of escape.
You DID mention a higher DC, and that`s what I was responding to.
I understand that was a tangential thought/possibility.I can imagine the 5 foot step as a reaction not only for verisimilitude but also because in the rules of combat you can make a 5 foot step and still have a full round to act. However can you really imagine a 20 foot reaction? I think most people can jump out of the way 5 feet but not 20. That just throws the verisimilitude right out of the window not to mention goes against the rules because anything more than 5 feet is a full movement action.
But passing the Reflex check DOESN^T USE the targert`s 5` step. There are mechanics in the game, aka Step Up, which use the next rounds` 5` step as an Immediate action, and this isn`t it. As I explained, the NON-ENLARGED Pit Spell (even if you coudl enlarge it) gives Large, Medium, Small, to Diminutive creatures the same chance to move to a safe space.
Instead of imagining visuals which conflict with mechanics and balance, try and imagine something that MATCHES them.
Perhaps the Pit opening isn`t exactlyh IMMEDIATE, it takes a second or two or whatever...
If spell effects like Hydraulic Push can push people around, that people passing their save can possibly use their own mobility to move (in additon to their normal actions on turn) doesn`t really concern me that much... Just say they DO IT, instead of getting hung up one purely mechanical issue that to `address` requires trashing other mechanics.
And why not say that the Pit edge itself is curling outward, itself helping push targets away (if they pass their Save, i.e. balance, and don`t fall in)
I think if you started the thread with `how can we visualize Pit spells working as they are desccribed` in different scenarios you mention, it would have been more productive from the beginning.
For the case where there is a completeyl closed room, and you are casting a Pit spell in it (let`s say you are casting a Pit spell at the bottom of a real 10x10 pit with a creature already in it), I again feel that violating the Spell`s explicit mechanics that a passed Save results in moving to safety is seriously uncalled for. Instead, the passed-save targets should not fall in, and be moved to whatever border as far as is possible... If necessary imagining they are scrambling to hold on to a wall or whatever, or if necessary (there are no walls, i.e. they were standing on a 10x10 block floating in mid-air) just say they avoid falling in but have essentially just jumped in mid-air. If they wish to remain there, they may need to make a Climb check on their turn or take other measures (e.g. Fly). This is essentially recognizing that the abstraction of Init order is just a ways to deal with ongoing nearly simultaneous combat... And a character floating in mid-air, or graspinng against a wall in reaction to a spell, doesn`t really mean they are staying there for more than the briefest milisecond.
You`re imagining some great visuals, but the effect is making the spell more powerful.
Raising the DC would also need a Heighten Metamagic, and completely negating a Save is off the books.
Widening the Pit makes it a tougher obstacle for anybody who`s not in it, and lets you trap more enemies inside...
i.e. the Level Adjustment of Widen accounts for those effects, not additional ones.And really, I don`t even see why you are arbitrarily saying creatures in the center can`t jump to safety... if a character can move 5` for free as a Reflex save, there`s nothing to say they can`t move 20` as Reflex save. The spell directly says a passed Save means you jump to safety... irregardless of distance. On a normal sized Pit spell, this applies just the same to Tiny sized creatures for whom 5` is disproportionately more than it is for Humans, so relative distance compared to Move Speed is irrelevant here... Just like other Save or Suck spells, a passed Save means you are safe.
Actually I wasn't talking about trying to raised the DC I was just trying to figure out what happens if there is no avenue of escape.
I can imagine the 5 foot step as a reaction not only for verisimilitude but also because in the rules of combat you can make a 5 foot step and still have a full round to act. However can you really imagine a 20 foot reaction? I think most people can jump out of the way 5 feet but not 20. That just throws the verisimilitude right out of the window not to mention goes against the rules because anything more than 5 feet is a full movement action.
From a verisimilitude point of view, sure, you're right, people aren't going to leap 20 feet to escape the effect. Of course, evasion shouldn't work then either, let alone improved evasion. No saves from fireballs that land right beside you either...sounds like no fun to me, but if that makes your game work better, go for it.
Now let's apply some game logic. If no one in the middle gets a save,...
I forgot about being on the receiving end and I don't think my GM would be against using it against our party. Perhaps I will not go that route.
Another word for emanation is emergence which is the act of coming (or going) out; becoming apparent.
Sounds pretty close to what is happening with the spell if you ask me.
Sounds pretty close to grasping for straws to me.
THIS is the DEFINITION of emanation that the rules give.
A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, including creatures that you can't see. It can't affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don't extend around corners). The default shape for a burst effect is a sphere, but some burst spells are specifically described as cone-shaped. a burst's area defines how far from the point of origin the spell's effect extends.
An emanation spell functions like a burst spell, except that the effect continues to radiate from the point of origin for the duration of the spell. Most emanations are cones or spheres.
So emantions don`t pass thru cover and don`t extend around corners. Unlike other spells, Create Pit doesn`t say it is a burst or emanation or anything, it just has an area. This is an advantage because it affects the entire area regardless of Cover (i.e. Tower Shield, terrain, Familiar under cloak, etc), but it also means that affects that specifically only apply to effects that count as emanations, bursts, lines, or cones DON`T APPLY TO IT... Otherwise, the line in Widen Spell saying that spells that aren`t of those types of areas aren`t affected becomes COMPLETELY POINTLESS if people start hauling out the webster`s dictionary definition of rules terms.
Don`t like the rules? Fine, but don`t waste anybody`s time quoting them then...
I forgot about being on the receiving end and I don't think my GM would be against using it against our party. Perhaps I will not go that route.
RIGHT...
I`d suggest considering ANY rule in the broader context of the game before trying to turn the game upside down...