|
Okay, Since i started playing PFS, i was told that if you enter an square with another player, you could attack from it with a -4 attack roll for both of you. (i was told it was called Crowding)
The other night, i attempted to do this to fire off an attack, and a different DM told me that i wasn't able to. Could i get some clarification on this rule, thanks.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook, bottom of page 193
Squeezing: In some cases, you may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn't as wide as the space you take up. You can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as your normal space. Each move into or through a narrow space counts as if it were 2 squares, and while squeezed in a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to AC.
When a Large creature (which normally takes up 4 squares) squeezes into a space that's 1 square wide, the creature's miniature figure occupies 2 squares, centered on the line between the 2 squares. For a bigger creature, center the creature likewise in the area it squeezes into.
A creature can squeeze past a creature while moving but it can't end its movement in an occupied square.
To squeeze through or into a space less than half your space's width, you must use the Escape Artist skill. You can't attack while using Escape Artist to squeeze through or into a narrow space, you take a –4 penalty to AC, and you lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As quoted above, it's legal to squeeze into or through a space half your size, you can squeeze past a creature while moving, but can't end your movement in an occupied space.
On the same page:
Ending your movement: you can't end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it's helpless.
|
So, is it legal to squeeze in PFS?
It is not legal under the core rules to end a space with another character unless the character is helpless. PFS follows the core rules. So, no, it isn't legal. It is a relatively common mistake/misunderstanding/houserule. Your first GM was incorrect if he characterized it as being covered in the core rules.
If the DM was lenient they might allow for the spring attack (or similar) feat to allow for this type of action. With spring attack allowing for movement both before and after the attack, you aren't technically "ending" in the squeezing spot, just visiting long enough to make the attack. That is about the only legal way I see it happening with the PFRPG Core book.
|
|
As quoted above, it's legal to squeeze into or through a space half your size, you can squeeze past a creature while moving, but can't end your movement in an occupied space.
On the same page:
Ending your movement: you can't end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it's helpless.
Or if you are grappling...
Or if you are grappling...As quoted above, it's legal to squeeze into or through a space half your size, you can squeeze past a creature while moving, but can't end your movement in an occupied space.
On the same page:
Ending your movement: you can't end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it's helpless.
Grappling creatures no longer occupy the same square.
If the DM was lenient they might allow for the spring attack (or similar) feat to allow for this type of action. With spring attack allowing for movement both before and after the attack, you aren't technically "ending" in the squeezing spot, just visiting long enough to make the attack. That is about the only legal way I see it happening with the PFRPG Core book.Or you could be a Morlock (:
Swarming (Ex)
Morlocks dwell and fight in cramped quarters every day of their lives, and as such are quite adept at swarming foes. Up to two morlocks can share the same square at the same time. If two morlocks in the same square attack the same foe, they are considered to be flanking that foe as if they were in two opposite squares.
I suppose it is from a supplement, and so not part of core, and clearly not viable for PFS, but published by Paizo and it's in the SRD, which counts for something...
"Friend: You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly character, that character doesn't provide you with cover (see page 195)."
Pathfinder Core Rulebook, page 193.
Very interesting that it doesn't mention Squeezing here. Are you sure that when it mentions squeezing, it means Squeezing, in a hard game mechanic sense?
"Friend: You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly character, that character doesn't provide you with cover (see page 195)."
.
Pathfinder Core Rulebook, page 193.
.
Very interesting that it doesn't mention Squeezing here. Are you sure that when it mentions squeezing, it means Squeezing, in a hard game mechanic sense?
That particular ruling is probably there to keep you from using your "friends" as cover in melee by using the other party members as a "safe" corridor by messing with the LoS mechanics (and thus keeping you from taking AoOs). Also without calling out specifically that you can move through friendly occupied squares it could be implied that it wasn't possible to do, which would cause other headaches. The general rule still stands that when trying to move through a spot already "occupied" the squeezing condition would apply.
Basically, the line you quoted just lets you know you don't need to roll anything to get past/through an allys space (when normally moving through another creatures space is prohibited) and you still take an AoO (barring anything else to prevent it) when doing so. It doesn't say anything about you not getting the squeeze penalties, which are the norm.
|
|
"Friend: You can move through a square occupied by a friendly character, unless you are charging. When you move through a square occupied by a friendly character, that character doesn't provide you with cover (see page 195)."
Pathfinder Core Rulebook, page 193.
Very interesting that it doesn't mention Squeezing here. Are you sure that when it mentions squeezing, it means Squeezing, in a hard game mechanic sense?
Id doesn't mention squeezing because squeezing only comes into play when the space itself is too small, not when the space is occupied. If the space is wide enough, squeezing doesn't apply. If it is wide enough and occupied, you can move through if the conditions are right, otherwise you can't. You can not end your movement in the square unless the other creature is helpless; there can always be exceptions provided by other rules resources.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
Or you could be a Morlock (:I suppose it is from a supplement, and so not part of core, and clearly not viable for PFS, but published by Paizo and it's in the SRD, which counts for something...Swarming (Ex)
Morlocks dwell and fight in cramped quarters every day of their lives, and as such are quite adept at swarming foes. Up to two morlocks can share the same square at the same time. If two morlocks in the same square attack the same foe, they are considered to be flanking that foe as if they were in two opposite squares.
Of course, that is a special monster ability, which is further indication that it's not allowed normally (otherwise, Paizo wouldn't have to mention it in the monster description).
If you play regularly with the same group, you could look at the Swap Places teamwork feat. It lets you switch spaces with someone else who also has the feat, so you can "tag team" and both be able to attack a creature from the same place.
On the note of sharing squares I have a question.
Say you get dropped to below 0. You fall unconscious and are considered helpless. An enemy moves and ends his move in your square. The cleric then heals you back up above 0. What exactly happens? When you stand do you get booted out to an adjacent square via the ending a move in an illegal square rule?
On the note of sharing squares I have a question.
Say you get dropped to below 0. You fall unconscious and are considered helpless. An enemy moves and ends his move in your square. The cleric then heals you back up above 0. What exactly happens? When you stand do you get booted out to an adjacent square via the ending a move in an illegal square rule?
You are both in the same space, but you're still prone. Don't worry about it.
*flashes bright light*
This is not the rules contradiction you're looking for. While reality could tell you you could hold still and accomplish the same thing should you find a combat advantage, you're not allowed to. Move along citizen, and stay in the red halls.
*flashes bright light*
Sometimes the suspension bridge of belief pushes the limits of engineering, but we all must suffer for our hobby at some point.
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
|
On the note of sharing squares I have a question.
Say you get dropped to below 0. You fall unconscious and are considered helpless. An enemy moves and ends his move in your square. The cleric then heals you back up above 0. What exactly happens? When you stand do you get booted out to an adjacent square via the ending a move in an illegal square rule?
You know, back in the 3.5 days, I actually emailed that very question to Wizards of the Coast's "D&D tech support." The answer I got was basically, "There isn't a rule for that:; it's up to your DM.
I expect it's the same lfor Pathfinder. This is enough of an edge case that there isn't really a rule for it. We all just sort of try to pretend the situation doesn't exist, and try to resolve it as soon as possible when it does come up.
On the note of sharing squares I have a question.
Say you get dropped to below 0. You fall unconscious and are considered helpless. An enemy moves and ends his move in your square. The cleric then heals you back up above 0. What exactly happens? When you stand do you get booted out to an adjacent square via the ending a move in an illegal square rule?
Generaly speaking when something like that happens the "offender" is placed back into the last "legal" spot they occupied. In your case I would say as the enemy did nothing wrong, you are the one "bumped" as your "action" was what caused the issue.
Though to be completely honest I want to say even if you are unconscious but not dead, you still count as a creature and therefore your spot isn't valid to be moved into by the enemy in the first place. I haven't got a book to look through to back me up on that however. A dead body stops being a creature (unless undead or somehow animated) and I believe would be considered a square of rough terrain for combat purposes.
If you are unconscious then you are helpless. You can move to or even charge through a space with a helpless creature, so that doesn't solve the problem.
Want to borrow the flashy thing yet?
If you are unconscious then you are helpless. You can move to or even charge through a space with a helpless creature, so that doesn't solve the problem.
Want to borrow the flashy thing yet?
Noooooooo..... not the flashy thing!
But got to look it up, just reading the Opponent portion says you can move through, but below on the Ending Your Movement says you can stop there. They probably should have merged the two.
Regardless once the two non helpless creatures are occupying the same square you end up with the Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space (p 194) and one of the two is getting "bumped." As the enemy had legal movements, I'd still say the prone creature gets the "bump" as once it is revived it is in the illegal spot after it awakens.
If you are unconscious then you are helpless. You can move to or even charge through a space with a helpless creature, so that doesn't solve the problem.
Want to borrow the flashy thing yet?
Noooooooo..... not the flashy thing!
But got to look it up, just reading the Opponent portion says you can move through, but below on the Ending Your Movement says you can stop there. They probably should have merged the two.
Regardless once the two non helpless creatures are occupying the same square you end up with the Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space (p 194) and one of the two is getting "bumped." As the enemy had legal movements, I'd still say the prone creature gets the "bump" as once it is revived it is in the illegal spot after it awakens.
So, in this case, the cleric's got a concussive channel that pushes you 5 feet? :)