Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Doesn't have to be standard fare Western Medieval Fantasy type and Zaister like. I was actually hoping for a AP based around the Worldwound to be honest. Dropping into Hades or the Abyss to help quell part of the demon invasion sounds like fun.OMG, an AP that isn't standard fare Western Medieval fantasy type and Zaister likes. Something's wrong with the universe! ;-)+1 on this post. Very disappointed about a pirate-themed AP. Sigh.Well, for me, as an example, it was like that when Carrion Crown was announced, and again with Jade Regent. Both themes don't hold much interest for me. Pirates I like, so finally again something to look forward to.
I've been a big fan of this idea for a while. I think a Worldwound crusade AP would be GREAT!
For that matter, given the tendency of modern gaming towards "shades of gray" morality and "working with the bad guys to defeat the WORSE guys" that has been a fairly common theme in multiple APs, I'd like to see one that is explicitly, unambiguously, unironically, and unapologetically an AP designed for the *good guys*, the knights in shining armor, the sherriff in the white hat with a silver star on his breast, the
In a fantasy world, should there be room for ambiguity and hard ethical choices? Sure. But here's a news flash: WE HAVE PLENTY OF THOSE ALREADY.
Also, those "hard ethical choices" are often more like: "Well, the adventure sets up to really expect you to have to do this, so hold your nose and eat it. It's theoretically possible for you to succeed if you don't do this... but... yeah... not really... so just go ahead and do it."
That's not a true "hard ethical choice." That's more like: "well, guess what, you're pretty much boned either way but you're stuck with the situation, so just try to find the least worst alternative and be happy about it."
We have plenty of APs that are designed for PCs to be scoundrels, or mercenaries out for themselves, or have the chance to ally themselves with scummy NPCs.
There are some APs where the PCs are very nearly required to cooperate with evil creatures, individuals, or government. There are others where it is less absolutely necessary, but still strongly flavored in that direction.
Are there ANY APs where the PCs are set up to be unambiguously heroic, without being forced to go through or get in bed with hell to do it?
I think Legacy of Fire is probably the only one that qualifies. The PCs are definitely set up as protectors of the local area, and at no point are they compelled to work with or for anybody scummy. You don't HAVE TO be a good guy to play LoF, but the thrust and sweep of the AP itself is heroic.
There are a few APs, ones with a more sandboxy approach in large part, that are pretty neutral on the subject.
Kingmaker has a pretty neutral heroism valence. It can just as easily be played with scumbag PCs as shining heroes. The only 'taint' factor is the implied setting of being in the River Kingdoms and having to engage politically with some shady characters in Brevoy and the other surrounding lands, but there's no compulsion in the AP to be friendly with them. It doesn't require heroism but neither does it punish it, and it's equally friendly to either approach.
I'm playing in Serpent's Skull so I haven't read them. Like Kingmaker, there are opportunities to get in bed with the bad guys, but thus far it has never felt like we were screwing ourselves by not doing that.
What we know about Jade Regent seems like heroic characters would be at home here. This one might even be a bit more in the LoF direction, in that the PCs are explicitly tied to helping Shalelu and (especially) Ameiko - NPCs that are established as being "good guys." So, while you could play a skeezy character, it would seem a bit out of place in why the Sandpoint gang would want to travel with you on this long journey to Tian Xia.
To the best of my recollection (and I could be wrong), the rest of the APs, including the 3 Dungeon APs, all seem to have varying degrees of "realistically, to play this adventure/AP as written, without making your GM invent a bunch of new stuff, you must work with some of the bad guys," whether it's vampires in or werewolves in Carrion Crown or demon lords in Savage Tide.
Is that stuff cool? Sure. Most of these adventures are really good, many even GREAT. Shoot, I write AP adventures and I dig the stuff we're doing! I'm not knocking the quality of the adventures. It's just that, if you look at the full sweep of Paizo's AP offerings, including those announced but not yet released, there are 12 of them from Shackled City to Skull and Bones. Of those:
8 require you (unless you are going to circumvent the adventure as written), at some point during the AP (if not at MANY points) to be friendly to villains.
3 (possibly 2) are pretty much neutral on the subject.
1 (possibly 2) is a straight-up, white-hat, full-on Good Guy AP.
One. Maybe 2.
Should every AP be superhero fantasy? Heck no. But look at history. Check the balance. There are customers - I would venture to guess a lot of customers - who want to BE HEROES, without feeling dirty about it afterwards. They want a Truly Heroic AP.
All I'm saying is this: IT'S TIME
Whether it's a Worldwound Crusade, a desperate resistance against an uprising of dragons, a liberation of the dwarven megadungeon homeland a la the Mines of Moria, or whatever. There are plenty of stories that can be told that would facilitate True Heroism. Most of them have ample space for some skulduggery and ambiguous shenanigans around the margins (corrupt inquisition tries to derail the Crusade; advisors against the dragons turn out to be agents FOR the dragons or infiltrators from a group that wants to control them; competing or rival dwarven factions who all want to stake a claim to "their" rightful place in the homeland), but at the end of the day the spine of the AP is true, honest to goodness heroism.
Maybe that's just me, but I don't think so. :)
Well, given Ultimate Combat will be out by then, the ninja archetype should be released. So there is that.
All I'm saying is this: IT'S TIME.
Whether it's a Worldwound Crusade, a desperate resistance against an uprising of dragons, a liberation of the dwarven megadungeon homeland a la the Mines of Moria, or whatever. There are plenty of stories that can be told that would facilitate True Heroism. Most of them have ample space for some skulduggery and ambiguous shenanigans around the margins (corrupt inquisition tries to derail the Crusade; advisors against the dragons turn out to be agents FOR the dragons or infiltrators from a group that wants to control them; competing or rival dwarven factions who all want to stake a claim to "their" rightful place in the homeland), but at the end of the day the spine of the AP is true, honest to goodness heroism.
Maybe that's just me, but I don't think so. :)
I couldn't agree more. I was disappointed to read in the Ask JJ thread that a "collect the artifacts, kill the dragon, rescue the princess" AP was rejected due to lack of enthusiasm on the part of the design & development team.
I understand WHY - it's hard to produce a good product when no one is feeling the vibe, and no one wants a sub-par AP with no heart. But surely someone would have been willing to breathe some life into that trope and make an AP that's designed for good-aligned heroes!
I'm not saying that villains shouldn't be terrifying and disgusting - that's why I liked "Skinsaw Murders" and "Hook Mountain" so much. But it does feel more and more like true heroes are getting the short end of the stick nowadays - and that's coming from someone who likes the ethically-ambiguous hooks in Carrion Crown.
Are there ANY APs where the PCs are set up to be unambiguously heroic, without being forced to go through or get in bed with hell to do it?
Why don't you think that Rise of the Runelords or Curse of the Crimson Throne don't qualify? Or Age of Worms, for that matter? I'm playing Council of Thieves (we've started Chapter 6) and I haven't seen that symptom there either yet.
By the way. I'd love to see a Worldwound Crusade AP - like you have described a while ago - some day.
While I am looking forward to this AP, I too think it would be fun to have one put on the schedule that is unambiguously for the Good Guys (tm). You know, one where a paladin's hardest choice is "longsword/shield or greatsword?"
And it doesn't have to be to the exclusion of other character types. The intro text for the original G series modules had something to the effect that you are tasked with stopping the giant raids because you are competent; do it or you'll be executed. Some might be tasked with it to earn a pardon from the nobility, and others you couldn't keep away no matter what.
Creative Director
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I understand WHY - it's hard to produce a good product when no one is feeling the vibe, and no one wants a sub-par AP with no heart. But surely someone would have been willing to breathe some life into that trope and make an AP that's designed for good-aligned heroes!
I'm not saying that villains shouldn't be terrifying and disgusting - that's why I liked "Skinsaw Murders" and "Hook Mountain" so much. But it does feel more and more like true heroes are getting the short end of the stick nowadays - and that's coming from someone who likes the ethically-ambiguous hooks in Carrion Crown.
We don't want to do a "you have to be evil" Adventure Path because that limits what kind of PCs you can make TOO much.
By the same extension, we tend to shy away from "You have to be good!" Adventure Paths. Sure, there'd be a LOT more folks who'd be fine with that, but there's a fair amount of gamers who would be put out by the fact that they can't play neutral (or even evil) characters.
Adventure Paths aren't designed for one group. They're designed for an infinite number of groups. As such, they don't have the luxury of knowing what the preferences of the players and GM are. And so we tend to try to make them as openly adjustable as possible. That means that our APs tend to be ones where you can play good guys or morally ambiguous characters as your specific group prefers. The GM can skew things either direction in most of our APs, and we give him a lot of help in providing extensive details on the adventures and the sites they take place in.
In any case, I completely disagree with you that "heroes" are getting the short end of the stick. It might seem that way since we're not saying "You have to be a hero to go on this adventure." I kinda don't think that NEEDS to be said... but in any case, looking at the last several Adventure Paths...
Carrion Crown: Fight against a cult that's trying to resurrect the biggest, meanest lich in the region, perhaps the world? Sounds like a great adventure to send heroes out to tackle.
Serpent's Skull: While admittedly the first half of this AP doesn't scream "come do good deeds!" it doesn't say "You can't do any good deeds." And the second half more or less assumes the PCs are heroes and good guys who voluntarily step in to fight the evil serpentfolk with little to no GM prodding.
Kingmaker: While this one's pretty playable by all alignments... the kingdom building rules are built such that the Unrest mechanic really makes it kinda tough for an evil group to play, compared to a group of good guys who are eager to defend those they've sworn to protect.
Council of Thieves: This one might be a bit tricky for some lawful characters, but good characters should fit right in with the campaign's themes of fighting against evil thieves and devils and undead.
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Creative Director
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... one where a paladin's hardest choice is "longsword/shield or greatsword?"
My opinion: That'd make a pretty boring game for a paladin character to roleplay in.
Part of being a paladin is being tempted. How will you ever know your'e truly righteous and legitimately Lawful and Good if you never have to put those convictions to the test?
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Are there ANY APs where the PCs are set up to be unambiguously heroic, without being forced to go through or get in bed with hell to do it?Why don't you think that Rise of the Runelords or Curse of the Crimson Throne don't qualify? Or Age of Worms, for that matter? I'm playing Council of Thieves (we've started Chapter 6) and I haven't seen that symptom there either yet.
By the way. I'd love to see a Worldwound Crusade AP - like you have described a while ago - some day.
I included the "but I may be wrong" caveat because I didn't read CoT or CotCT; my "information" such as it was on those two was based on reading comments or hearing table stories from other players who described having to socialize and work with scummy NPCs in those adventure paths, in CotCT before you realize the True Villain of the AP is actually a villain I think. In CoT, I was thinking of the entire premise of Mother of Flies, but perhaps how it goes down in actual gameplay is different from how it seemed to me.
RotRL is a weird case, because some of the adventures in the path are clearly heroic, me-good, you-bad, FIGHT (1, 4, 6). In others, it may just be that the gross-out elements (#2 and #3 in particular) make the adventures FEEL like you've compromised some element of heroism even though you haven't really. Also, it felt like there was some forcing along the moral event horizon with the sin weapons and such in #5 I thought, but YMMV.
Does that make me guilty of overgeneralizing? Yes it does! :)
Hyperbole 1, pure unadulterated fact 0.
Even so, I'd venture that the overall point stands: Paizo has done a LOT more "edgy, dark, morally ambiguous" and allegedly more "mature" tones and flavors in their APs from the beginning than they have done straight up good guy/bad guy APs. The exact proportions of each (or ones that are fairly neutral) are arguable, but I think the trend lines still indicate a relative lack of Hardcore Hero APs.
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Creative Director
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Even so, I'd venture that the overall point stands: Paizo has done a LOT more "edgy, dark, morally ambiguous" and allegedly more "mature" tones and flavors in their APs from the beginning than they have done straight up good guy/bad guy APs. The exact proportions of each (or ones that are fairly neutral) are arguable, but I think the trend lines still indicate a relative lack of Hardcore Hero APs.
While this is true... note that we've not yet done a "You must be evil" adventure path.
In my mind, a lot of the perils of doing an evil-only adventure path are shared by doing a good-only adventure path.
Those that are more or less equally usable by good, neutral, evil, lawful, and chaotic groups are the most attractive, since they're the ones that cover the most types of play styles and are the easiest to adjust by a GM to focus on one of those five options.
In any case, I completely disagree with you that "heroes" are getting the short end of the stick. It might seem that way since we're not saying "You have to be a hero to go on this adventure." I kinda don't think that NEEDS to be said... but in any case, looking at the last several Adventure Paths...
** spoiler omitted **...
That's a fair rebuttal. About the only point I'd disagree on is your observation about Kingmaker's Unrest mechanic. I haven't read the later portions of that AP in great detail yet, but from player and GM reports I've read/heard, it looks like the kingdom building system could easily be gamed by a tyrannical party makeup that wants to squeak by being evil without causing too much unrest.
Honestly, my perspective here is probably skewed by my personal disappointment over Skull & Bones as the follow-up to Jade Regent, and I likely need to take a step back so as not to get too reactionary. I'm just looking at the upcoming schedule and seeing very little in the AP line that makes me wanna spread-eagle my wallet for the next year.
Although with Kingmaker and Carrion Crown both in my personal GM's bullpen, it isn't as if I don't have plenty of stuff I am excited about running to play with in the meantime. =]
Although with Kingmaker and Carrion Crown both in my personal GM's bullpen, it isn't as if I don't have plenty of stuff I am excited about running to play with in the meantime. =]
Same here, I've only just started both new Kingmaker and Serpent's Skull campaigns, and my Legacy of Fire campaign is just nearing the conclusion of its chapter 4, so Skull and Bones seems to be long way off for me. Still I look forward to it.
The Council of Thieves campaign I'm playing in is in chapter 6 now, so we'll probably finish it in the near future, and out GM has indicated he's interested in following this up with Jade Regent, so no Skull and BOnes there for me either. (Well, the journey element and the whole escort-the-princess set-up are interesting enough so I could put up with 2 or 3 adventures in Tian Xia, so I'm OK with this, especially since he's most definitely not a weeaboo.)
Think I'll reserve my excitement until I know more. The AP after Age of Worms was piratey...but not, and Serpent's Skull was piratey...but not, so as much as I would love to see Paizo do a piratey AP, I want to KNOW it's happening before I break out the rum and cutlass...Serpent's Skull was never called out as "piratey", in fact the Player's Guide clearly spelled out that it is in now way a maritime campaign. And I'm reasonably sure that Savage Tide was also never advertised as a "pirate campaign". This however seems to be explicitly just that.
Oh, I'm aware they were not out and out declared to be pirate APs, though I do seem to recall the word pirate getting thrown about a lot with Savage Tides, I thought by developers, though it's been a while...
My point is, when Savage Tide came out, a lot of the gibberjabber about it said PIRATE CAMPAIGN!, and when Serpent's Skull came out, the same thing (though I will give credit where credit is do and say the Paizo crue [in particular Mr. Jacobs I believe] did a good job of letting people know quickly that they had gotten the wrong impression). Things are looking like this is infact a pirate AP (which makes me very happy) but I'm simply reserving my full on pirategasm for when something more official than some guy's blog (no offence ment, I just don't know who's who, so to me, it's "some guy") and people on the boards saying what they heard or what someone told them they heard. When I see an official anouncment, I'll gush (knowing my luck, it's probably on the blog right this minute...)
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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We don't want to do a "you have to be evil" Adventure Path because that limits what kind of PCs you can make TOO much.
By the same extension, we tend to shy away from "You have to be good!" Adventure Paths. Sure, there'd be a LOT more folks who'd be fine with that, but there's a fair amount of gamers who would be put out by the fact that they can't play neutral (or even evil) characters.
First, parenthetically, in a Truly Heroic AP you probably could play neutral characters, as long as they were able personality-wise to get on board with the cause of heroism (evil characters, probably a lot harder, but no harder than playing an devoted goody-goody in some of the darker-themed APs). It's not that you'd have to play good characters; it's that you wouldn't have to wade through the slime of evil to accomplish good ends.
More to this point, though:
If what you are saying is true, that there'd a LOT more folks fine with that, then why not try it once?
This is entirely serious. There are a "fair amount of gamers who would be put out" by...
... an AP with an Asian theme (JR)
... an AP with a horror theme (CC)
... an AP with an Arabian theme (LoF)
... an AP with pirates and guns (S&B)
... an AP with gross-out horror elements (Skinsaw/HMM)
etc.
Those are themes for APs. The theme for this AP is True Heroism. A LOT of people would like it. Some wouldn't.
Then again, Lisa said several times at PaizoCon in her various sessions, not all APs are for everybody, and that's okay. You don't want to alienate large sections of the fan base by what you DO do, but you also don't want to alienate large sections of the fan base by what you DON'T do.
You also have to take it on faith and goodwill that your fan base trusts what you are doing, and that if you make it and it's awesome then even a lot of doubters will come along for the ride (witness Kingmaker, the "plot-less" AP that some people said not only wouldn't work but couldn't work). Some won't. They will start off not liking it and stay not liking it. And that's okay, because in six months there'll be another AP that is probably more to their liking. Meanwhile, other people who hadn't been subscribing or buying or playing might well have jumped ON the Paizo train and will stay on it even after the True Heroes AP is over.
Think about it not simply in terms of potential customers lost, but in terms of potential customers gained. Don't ONLY think of it that way (that way lies WotC), but it's a balance, and the fans you already have are pretty forgiving even when they do think Paizo has a hiccup, which isn't very often.
But, you already know, or are pretty sure, that this is an idea that WOULDN'T be a bust. You said it yourself, a LOT of people would be interested in this kind of thing as an idea.
Paizo took adventuring in a new direction with its APs. Some of its edginess was on purpose, to take adventure-writing in a new direction from where it was. Maybe it feels like to do a True Heroes AP would be a betrayal of that "we're doing it a different way" ethic.
This is an opportunity to be play against your own type, the type you created. This AP would be different from your usual difference. :)
Adventure Paths aren't designed for one group. They're designed for an infinite number of groups. As such, they don't have the luxury of knowing what the preferences of the players and GM are. And so we tend to try to make them as openly adjustable as possible. That means that our APs tend to be ones where you can play good guys or morally ambiguous characters as your specific group prefers. The GM can skew things either direction in most of our APs, and we give him a lot of help in providing extensive details on the adventures and the sites they take place in.
Sure. At the same time, every AP has a slant; they aren't value-neutral.
Some APs are strongly set up to be more friendly to characters of a certain outlook, including the earlier mention of "paladins probably shouldn't play in Skull & Bones. You could do it, but they'll have a hard time fitting in."
This one would be the opposite, "evil or selfish/scummy characters probably shouldn't play in True Heroes. You could do it, but they'll have a hard time fitting in."
It's not asking to change the flavor of the game world, but simply to set a rational expectation for the purpose of THIS AP, which is no different from the kind of level-setting that has been done with other APs.
In any case, I completely disagree with you that "heroes" are getting the short end of the stick. It might seem that way since we're not saying "You have to be a hero to go on this adventure." I kinda don't think that NEEDS to be said...
You'd think that, but then you get slavering jackals of players who subvert that heroic subtext of the adventure. "Why would we help these guys? What's in it for us?"
More to the point, though, it's not that heroes CAN'T go on these adventures. Of course they can, and they can achieve heroic ends.
All that I am saying is this: Paizo has written a lot of APs. They've played around with a lot of moral gray areas. Players and GMs who want that in their games have PLENTY of material already, and they will receive EVEN MORE of it in the future. Paizo likes doing that style, and they do it well.
All the True Hero fans would like to see is that, every once in a while, could you throw us a bone and say, "Here we go, for THIS product, for THIS set of 6 adventures after the last Grim & Gritty one and before the next Grim & Gritty one, THIS Adventure Path is for the Shiny Bright Heroes!"
I don't think anybody wants Paizo to change its stripes or its creative philosophy. I, or we who might agree with this sentiment, simply think that it would be really cool to - as a break from its more usual fare - see an AP that is unironically, unapologetically, unambiguously friendly to True Heroes who want to start their careers shiny bright and play up to level 15-17 STILL shiny bright.
Will they have to fight like (and possibly through) hell to do it? Abso-frickin-lutely.
Will the Bad Guys do Bad Things that the heroes try (and sometimes might FAIL) to stop? Yes indeedy.
Can tragedy ensue when the PCs make the Right Choice for the Right Reason and have Bad Stuff *STILL HAPPEN* anyway? Darn straight. *THAT* is the cost of being good. *THAT* is the difficult ethical choice.
Not to choose the lesser of two evils, but to choose the path of the good, the just, and the right, to accept the consequences of your choice, or when presented with a choice that seems impossible to Take a Third Option and turn the tables on the Bad Guy who thinks he has you by the short hairs. You may fall, and you may fail, but you just keep on getting up, and you just keep on coming, and you don't ever give up. Why?
Because *THAT* is what a HERO is.
but in any case, looking at the last several Adventure Paths...
** spoiler omitted **...
The spoilers are almost the point. It's not that the outcome isn't good. Sure, the end-goal in CC is great, but why are PCs forced to shack up with the bad guys to get there?
In Savage Tide, you want to stop the Savage Tide from sending the world into a killcrazy rampage and kill a certain demon lord. That seems like a pretty good outcome, but you are very nearly forced to get in bed with half of the Abyss to do it, and on a certain level at the end you are replacing one BBEG with another BBEG.
The part that people object to is not the final mission. It's that the modules are written with the necessary expectation that, in order to REALLY succeed within the confines of the written module, you must do X-and-such objectionable/scummy/evil thing in order to do it. That, or have your DM write an alternative adventure.
... one where a paladin's hardest choice is "longsword/shield or greatsword?"My opinion: That'd make a pretty boring game for a paladin character to roleplay in.
Part of being a paladin is being tempted. How will you ever know your'e truly righteous and legitimately Lawful and Good if you never have to put those convictions to the test?
Sorry, I should have added something to make it clear that I was speaking with hyperbole for the sake of emphasis. Earlier there was a Worldwound idea mentioned as an example, and I think that's an apt example. It can certainly still be done while presenting appropriate dilemmas.
On the subject of Kingmaker and evil players...granted, they're not necessarily the nicest group of people in the region, but they're as evil as they come and they're actually POPULAR with their subjects!
And how is that possible? Because while the players themselves are greedy, selfish amoral bastards they came to the conclusion that they needed a strong kingdom if they were ever going to launch their war of conquest against Brevory and/or the surrounding River Kingdoms. so they do 'good' things like hunt bandits and quell unrest and set up a decent justice system that works for everyone...but they're not doing any of it because they believe in peace and justice for all. they're doing it because a loyal kingdom that makes tons of money is necessary for their long term goals. Evil isn't necessarily going to be in your face. Evil isn't snively whiplash with his cackling laugh and black cape. Evil can be subtle. Evil can be seductive. Evil can be your best friend.
slowly but surely, their kingdom is becoming neutral to lawful evil. And once they're done building it, then they will gather all evil to them and launch a war of conquest the River Kingdoms have NEVER seen before!
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On the subject of Kingmaker and evil players...granted, they're not necessarily the nicest group of people in the region, but they're as evil as they come and they're actually POPULAR with their subjects!
And how is that possible? Because while the players themselves are greedy, selfish amoral bastards they came to the conclusion that they needed a strong kingdom if they were ever going to launch their war of conquest against Brevory and/or the surrounding River Kingdoms. so they do 'good' things like hunt bandits and quell unrest and set up a decent justice system that works for everyone...but they're not doing any of it because they believe in peace and justice for all. they're doing it because a loyal kingdom that makes tons of money is necessary for their long term goals. Evil isn't necessarily going to be in your face. Evil isn't snively whiplash with his cackling laugh and black cape. Evil can be subtle. Evil can be seductive. Evil can be your best friend.
slowly but surely, their kingdom is becoming neutral to lawful evil. And once they're done building it, then they will gather all evil to them and launch a war of conquest the River Kingdoms have NEVER seen before!
Very true. :)
Maybe that's just me, but I don't think so. :)
Nope.. that's how I generally like 'em.
I get enough shades of grey in real life. While the *option* to choose to ally with the bad guys is good, it should *never* be the *only* viable option.
I can easily see a group of evil players finding common cause to build a solid and respectable pirate fleet. Evil doesn't have to fall apart - hell, look at Monsanto or half the firms on wall street (goldman-sachs comes to mind). Evil and rotten to the core, populated with greedy selfish individuals who warp and pervert the law in service to their goals. But do they fall apart? nope! In fact, they find it easy to recruit people to their companies. people LINE UP to join them despite knowing that they're evil bastards. they fight just to get into the line to join up.
don't assume that an evil party is going to fall to bickering and then kill one another at the dinner table. so long as they all understand that the end goal is more important and that they have good reason to stick together...evil parties can achieve a level of greatness equal too or even exceeding that of a good aligned party.
Evil can be subtle. Evil can be seductive. Evil can be your best friend.Very true. :)
Wouldn't it be nice
To blunder with your eyesWhatever there's for you to see
Is yours to be
Let me be there
Just tell me you don't care
Just say you'll pay me after life
However high the price?
I know your secrets
I know them all.
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I'm actually a little sad that the AP after Jade Regent (which I'm not really overly interested in, but understand that other people are, and I like the "heir to the throne" concept of it. I'm not a big fan of asialand; the ossified, formalized cultures annoy me) will be Skull and Bones, if only because I'm still waiting on Razor Coast AND thinking of making a 4E homebrew maritime mini-setting myself.
I was sort of hoping for a Numeria AP, since that's what my players would like. a few times during kingmaker (into which I thew in some extra techno-artifacts), they expressed interest in a numeria AP, where they could fight robots and get addicted to alien juice.
Think I'll reserve my excitement until I know more. The AP after Age of Worms was piratey...but not, and Serpent's Skull was piratey...but not, so as much as I would love to see Paizo do a piratey AP, I want to KNOW it's happening before I break out the rum and cutlass...Avast ye landlubber, when the Paizo staff tells ya that it is a pirate AP, you better reach for your cutlass and get ready to board that beauty! So hoist the flag and get ready to send your enemies to Davie Jone's Locker!
-Lisa
Lisa, didn't see your post until just now while backtracking to find the links to the pirate/english translations. Killer, up until now I hadn't seen any Paizo employees actualy say it was a pirate AP. It had just been a blog post and some hearsay. So consider me gushing.
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Just to chime in on the subject of a "heroic" AP with more of an emphasis on being heroes with a capital "H"...I entirely agree with what Jason asserted. I think it would make for a "nice break" from the "series of nice breaks" offered in so many of Paizo's prior APs. Don't get me wrong, though. I'm absolutely thrilled with the themes behind Jade Regent as well as the new Skull and Shackles APs. They'll be super awesome. In my opinion, an ultra-heroic AP would be equally awesome and there might be an under-served market for it out there. In terms of motivation, I would be highly inspired by an opportunity to write, run, and play in such a campaign. Sounds like Jason would be, too. That's a third of the necessary AP authors already lined up and salivating.
So, just throwing that out there for when you guys start assessing the list of future APs again. The focus right now is on making Jade Regent and Skull and Shackles the best they can be. Somewhere down the line, I'd love to help make a hyper-heroic campaign based around a holy crusade, starting somewhere in Lastwall, journeying up through Mendev, and then into the very heart of the Worldwound for some high stakes action against the most unrelenting demon hordes invading Golarion. Sharpen the blades and sharpen the pencils so we can do that one and I'm there!
My two cents,
--Neil
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Creative Director
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I'm actually a little sad that the AP after Jade Regent (which I'm not really overly interested in, but understand that other people are, and I like the "heir to the throne" concept of it. I'm not a big fan of asialand; the ossified, formalized cultures annoy me) will be Skull and Bones, if only because I'm still waiting on Razor Coast AND thinking of making a 4E homebrew maritime mini-setting myself.
I was sort of hoping for a Numeria AP, since that's what my players would like. a few times during kingmaker (into which I thew in some extra techno-artifacts), they expressed interest in a numeria AP, where they could fight robots and get addicted to alien juice.
We've altered the title of the next AP a bit—it's gonna be the "Skull and Shackles" Adventure Path.
Whether or not Razor Coast beats Skull and Shackles to print... we'll see.
A Numeria Adventure Path would be really cool, but it'd also be VERY tough for us to pull off. Probably not as tough as Jade Regent was... but there'd still be a lot of rules subsystems and expansions we'd have to work out for such an AP. I'd love to do it... but I'm not sure when the best time to do something like that would be.
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Creative Director
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Just to chime in on the subject of a "heroic" AP with more of an emphasis on being heroes with a capital "H"...I entirely agree with what Jason asserted. I think it would make for a "nice break" from the "series of nice breaks" offered in so many of Paizo's prior APs. Don't get me wrong, though. I'm absolutely thrilled with the themes behind Jade Regent as well as the new Skull and Shackles APs. They'll be super awesome. In my opinion, an ultra-heroic AP would be equally awesome and there might be an under-served market for it out there. In terms of motivation, I would be highly inspired by an opportunity to write, run, and play in such a campaign. Sounds like Jason would be, too. That's a third of the necessary AP authors already lined up and salivating.
So, just throwing that out there for when you guys start assessing the list of future APs again. The focus right now is on making Jade Regent and Skull and Shackles the best they can be. Somewhere down the line, I'd love to help make a hyper-heroic campaign based around a holy crusade, starting somewhere in Lastwall, journeying up through Mendev, and then into the very heart of the Worldwound for some high stakes action against the most unrelenting demon hordes invading Golarion. Sharpen the blades and sharpen the pencils so we can do that one and I'm there!
My two cents,
--Neil
Actually... I'd say that Jade Regent would stand VERY WELL as a great AP for a paladin or other super-good-guy character to go on...
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Actually... I'd say that Jade Regent would stand VERY WELL as a great AP for a paladin or other super-good-guy character to go on...
True statement. Unfortunately, that heroic theme is wrapped around an Asian-themed campaign with samurai, ninja, etc. Personally, I wouldn't have any problem making that a super-good-guy campaign. Like you, I enjoy Asian-style trappings and don't have any problem with them at all. But some might not see JR as a traditional enough backdrop to match their gaming group or personal interests. So, they'll miss having that theme in an AP suited to their cultural/locale preferences. That's ultimately what Jason (and I) are getting at, I think. Basically, there's a market for Paizo that might be a little under-served which you could reach by matching that theme with a more Western, medieval-flavored setting. A Worldwound crusade achieves all that in spades. Plus, it gives you a chance to scratch that demonomicon itch while elaborating on parts of Golarion we haven't seen in an AP yet (i.e., Lastwall, Mendev, the Worldwound, etc.).
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The part that people object to is not the final mission. It's that the modules are written with the necessary expectation that, in order to REALLY succeed within the confines of the written module, you must do X-and-such objectionable/scummy/evil thing in order to do it.
I would also really like to see the True Heroes AP. The motif of difficult ethical choices can be (and has been) interesting in the APs, but I'd like to see a path where the tough choices take a different form than making a deal with Ms. Evil-Enemy-of-My-Enemy.
This is not to say that such a path would have to be simplistic: It just wouldn't provide as many long-term plot rewards for expediency. For example, a low-level party could be forced to choose whether to sell out a trusted mentor in some non-lethal way for an apparently enormous short-term gain. If they yield to expediency, the "gain" isn't as good as promised, and it hurts them in the long term.
Maybe a sandbox-y AP where the PCs are trying to reform a nominally NG, but actually N order of crusaders at the Worldwound? Moral compromise would get them immediate allies among the semi-corrupt leadership, but it would undercut their goal of making the organization the LG/NG/CG force for Good that it could be with their influence. Neutral players could opt to keep the status quo, but they'd still have to tighten discipline to win the final battle against the demon hordes when the Wardstones come down.
I would also really like to see the True Heroes AP. The motif of difficult ethical choices can be (and has been) interesting in the APs, but I'd like to see a path where the tough choices take a different form than making a deal with Ms. Evil-Enemy-of-My-Enemy.
Even a True Heroes AP can inject difficult ethical choices. But that doesn't mean it has to be a choice between temporary alliances with less-than-savory characters or evil informants and erstwhile allies. Instead, you just need to introduce the concept of personal sacrifice. It's the choice between staying home and letting someone else fight all the world's evils for you (presumably while supporting them in the hopes they'll win the day), or strapping on your armor and sharpening your blade as you risk your own life (and most probably give it up) in order to literally save the world.
It's like a Lord of the Rings analogue in some ways. A bunch of crusaders who already know they march to certain doom. But they take up arms and do so anyway, because they find a higher purpose for good in it. And, maybe...just maybe...if they play their cards right, they'll win the day and come home to a true hero's welcome, knowing they held the faith and to their own personal principles in the face of the most overwhelming evil.
We've altered the title of the next AP a bit—it's gonna be the "Skull and Shackles" Adventure Path.
Hm. So, what happened to the Crossbones? "Skull and Shackles" doesn't really evoke pirates at all for me, unless you know enough Golarion lore to know about the Shackles. To me, this is a worse title than the original "Skull and Bones". It sounds awkward, despite having an alliteration. Also, it duplicates SS as an abbreviation (and even one of the words is the same). Hm.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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Actually... I'd say that Jade Regent would stand VERY WELL as a great AP for a paladin or other super-good-guy character to go on... ** spoiler omitted **Just to chime in on the subject of a "heroic" AP with more of an emphasis on being heroes with a capital "H"...I entirely agree with what Jason asserted. I think it would make for a "nice break" from the "series of nice breaks" offered in so many of Paizo's prior APs. Don't get me wrong, though. I'm absolutely thrilled with the themes behind Jade Regent as well as the new Skull and Shackles APs. They'll be super awesome. In my opinion, an ultra-heroic AP would be equally awesome and there might be an under-served market for it out there. In terms of motivation, I would be highly inspired by an opportunity to write, run, and play in such a campaign. Sounds like Jason would be, too. That's a third of the necessary AP authors already lined up and salivating.
So, just throwing that out there for when you guys start assessing the list of future APs again. The focus right now is on making Jade Regent and Skull and Shackles the best they can be. Somewhere down the line, I'd love to help make a hyper-heroic campaign based around a holy crusade, starting somewhere in Lastwall, journeying up through Mendev, and then into the very heart of the Worldwound for some high stakes action against the most unrelenting demon hordes invading Golarion. Sharpen the blades and sharpen the pencils so we can do that one and I'm there!
My two cents,
--Neil
I agree... though it's an interesting irony that what are (IMO) the two most unambiguously "True Hero-friendly" APs are Legacy of Fire and Jade Regent, and both are set in alternative/exotic cultures or settings, which as Neil stated may disincline a fair number of people from playing them just because they prefer to hew closer to the tropes of medieval Europe in their gaming campaigns. I love Al-Qadim and Arabian stuff and was always a fan of Oriental Adventures, but to a lot of the customer base those are niche settings. It's just a funny coincidence that the two most purely heroic APs ended up in cultures/locations like that.
As Neil said, what we are talking about here is a True Hero AP set in 'traditional' fantasy; i.e., somewhere in the heartlands of Avistan, not off at the edge of the map (culturally and location-wise).
Kingmaker *CAN* be that, if the GM and players set it up that way, but it's neutral enough to fit all kinds of themes, which is one of its great strengths, but the core of the AP is really just exploration and expansion and the challenges you face in the process; it's neutral on the hero/villain spectrum.
I think an AP that intentionally and explicitly dials the heroism up to eleven, so to speak, would be a winner, be it dragons, a holy crusade, or whatever it might be.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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We've altered the title of the next AP a bit—it's gonna be the "Skull and Shackles" Adventure Path.Hm. So, what happened to the Crossbones? "Skull and Shackles" doesn't really evoke pirates at all for me, unless you know enough Golarion lore to know about the Shackles. To me, this is a worse title than the original "Skull and Bones". It sounds awkward, despite having an alliteration. Also, it duplicates SS as an abbreviation (and even one of the words is the same). Hm.
I'll echo not being as keen on Skull and Shackles. True, it's *IN* the Shackles, so that makes sense, but skull doesn't evoke pirates outside of the phrase "skull and crossbones."
Actually, I'd suggest "Shackles and Bones" over "Skull and Shackles" if we're just keeping one word out of "Skull and Bones," or just going back to S&B. That's just me, tho.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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There had already decades of adventure without shades of grey. I don´t like to play into children´s fairy tale worlds, i like to play in a world i can believe. So thanks Paizo for all these wonderful tales of adventure.
Oh, I don't know that a world with capital-H Heroes a children's fairy tale world. The esteemed Oxford don who created Middle Earth would probably beg to differ, facing a world teetering on the edge of holocaust and oblivion, and even after "victory" having to deal with the bitter leavings of revenge and spite left behind.
Shoot, perhaps you've heard of a little place called Camelot. Does it eventually fall to ruin and despair? Sure, though there is redemption as well, and sacrifice. But during its height, it is heroism personified. It is where True Heroes live and work and do all their heroic stuff.
At the same time, shades of gray aren't limited to the notion of "ally with/befriend/enable Evil A to beat Evil B"; there are plenty of shades of gray that can go other directions, and those are entirely reasonable inclusions even in a Truly Heroic AP.
Finally, Golarion is designed intentionally to be a kitchen sink world. All places you go are not equally rife with corruption and douchebaggery. When we were writing the Andoran companion, one of the authors ventured a suggestion to make Andoran's banks creepy and corrupt and otherwise naughty; the esteemed SKR reminded that Andoran was a NG country with a NG government and NG people. This doesn't mean that there is nobody with a hidden agenda or a selfish motive in the country. What it does mean is that the country is not secretly being run by creeps and villains, doesn't screw people over as a rule, etc.
It's like the difference between Lastwall and Mendev. Both are crusader nations, but Mendev is the place of the broken crusade - with corrupt inquisitions, burning heretics at the stake, low templars who are more criminal than crusader, and barely holding together through the faithfulness of the few.
Lastwall isn't like that.
Lastwall is a country where the crusade WORKS. Where good WORKS. Where the government and the people are united, and pretty much everyone is down for the cause of law and goodness, dedicated to the cause of shielding the rest of the heartlands of Avistan, to bringing justice to each other, supporting each other, caring about one another, to going out of their way to help, and on down the list.
If you were to say, "Oh, it's not realistic that Lastwall would be like that," then you'd essentially be saying "Lastwall should be like Mendev, except with orcs instead of demons on the frontier."
BO-ring.
This is a fantasy world. All the countries shouldn't be the same, and Golarion is explicitly set up as a world where they aren't the same.
All that said, I'm not trying to argue YOU into liking the idea of a Truly Heroic AP. You are absolutely free to say "that idea sucks and I'd never want to play it." The only case I'm trying to make is:
- You (and others with similar tastes) are already getting (and have already gotten) a metric ton of material to your taste from Paizo.
- In the future, you will continue receiving such material.
- There exists a substantial subset of the fandom (aka Paizo customer base) that would be interested in a Truly Heroic AP.
Given the above three points, is it not logical to suggest that asking Paizo to produce a Truly Heroic AP, while not satisfying your personal taste, would be a reasonable concession to that subset of their fans who feel that niche has not yet been really served with that delicious Paizo magic that has been doled out to fans of many other subgenres?
I have to say I was sorta skepetical on the whole True Heroic AP requests. Personaly Heroic people can make deal s with the devil...and still be Heroic.
But I am starting to see value in a AP set in say Mendev or Lastwall( or both) That is heroicaly good. As you can explore the various interaction between the different good alignments and the possible conflicts. To me Chaos vs Law was always more interesting than Good vs Evil.
It would be also great if the heroes die at the end....or atleast have the ending so that the heroes can still win even while dieing.
Just my two cents.
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Creative Director
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We've altered the title of the next AP a bit—it's gonna be the "Skull and Shackles" Adventure Path.Hm. So, what happened to the Crossbones? "Skull and Shackles" doesn't really evoke pirates at all for me, unless you know enough Golarion lore to know about the Shackles. To me, this is a worse title than the original "Skull and Bones". It sounds awkward, despite having an alliteration. Also, it duplicates SS as an abbreviation (and even one of the words is the same). Hm.
What happened to the Crossbones is that our Pirate Region doesn't have crossbones on the flag; it has crossed shackles.
Also, "Skull and Shackles" sounds better to me due to the alliteration.
Also also, "Skull and Shackles" is more unique, and less generic.
And it's abbreviation is SAS, not SS.
Personaly Heroic people can make deal s with the devil...and still be Heroic.
The title for people who do that is "fallen hero", assuming you're Devils are worth their name :)
What happened to the Crossbones is that our Pirate Region doesn't have crossbones on the flag; it has crossed shackles.
Also, "Skull and Shackles" sounds better to me due to the alliteration.
Also also, "Skull and Shackles" is more unique, and less generic.
And it's abbreviation is SAS, not SS.
Ah, well, I guess I can live with that. Just a matter of getting used to it.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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What happened to the Crossbones is that our Pirate Region doesn't have crossbones on the flag; it has crossed shackles.We've altered the title of the next AP a bit—it's gonna be the "Skull and Shackles" Adventure Path.Hm. So, what happened to the Crossbones? "Skull and Shackles" doesn't really evoke pirates at all for me, unless you know enough Golarion lore to know about the Shackles. To me, this is a worse title than the original "Skull and Bones". It sounds awkward, despite having an alliteration. Also, it duplicates SS as an abbreviation (and even one of the words is the same). Hm.
It all makes sense now. :)
We've altered the title of the next AP a bit—it's gonna be the "Skull and Shackles" Adventure Path.Hm. So, what happened to the Crossbones? "Skull and Shackles" doesn't really evoke pirates at all for me, unless you know enough Golarion lore to know about the Shackles. To me, this is a worse title than the original "Skull and Bones". It sounds awkward, despite having an alliteration. Also, it duplicates SS as an abbreviation (and even one of the words is the same). Hm.What happened to the Crossbones is that our Pirate Region doesn't have crossbones on the flag; it has crossed shackles.
Also, "Skull and Shackles" sounds better to me due to the alliteration.
Also also, "Skull and Shackles" is more unique, and less generic.
And it's abbreviation is SAS, not SS.
I vote for "Peglegs and Eye Patches"... lol
Ultradan
I think that for a TRUE HERO adventure a series of connecting adventure modules would do the trick. Same goes for an EVIL campaing. You start with one and see how it goes... :)
Lawful Good Module: A paladin is called in to a region that has been having troubles with monsters (be it bugbears, or goblins, or whatever), and is charged with dealing with the problem. But when the Paladin discovers that it's the humans that are the real root of the problem, he must decide to either follow his first goal or join forces with the goblinoids and help them defend their home. (I know, it sounds like AVATAR, lol...)
Lawful Evil Module: A twisted story about an evil wizard who uses a nations own laws against them to legally make his way to the throne and become the undisputed ruler of the realm. (This should be more like Emperor Palpatine's rise to power in the Star Wars franchise...)
Personally, I think most APs are pretty much adaptable to suite MOST of the gaming parties out there. What I'm really waiting for is a mega-dungeon AP (mentioned before on the boards)... A sort of Undermountain but with actual room descriptions, not just a box filled with maps! lol
Good work so far Paizo... You guys ROCK!!
Ultradan
I'll be honest, I'd really like to see a Big Damn Heroes campaign.
Ain't we just.
And I'd definitely spend my money on such a campaign, as well. The whole crusade to Worldwound thing is instant win anyway . . . making it into a True Hero campaign would be perfect. Don't get me wrong though, I'd be more than willing to accept a True Hero campaign whether that's the premise for it or not.
Oh, and I'm excited as all get-out for a Pirates AP, just to toss that out there. That they are making it a sandbox AP is all the better, too, since I've had a Pirate campaign idea in the works for a little while now, and this means I can continue with mine own idea and throw this campaign into the mix too! BRILLIANT!
Actually... I'd say that Jade Regent would stand VERY WELL as a great AP for a paladin or other super-good-guy character to go on... ** spoiler omitted that explains exactly why this AP is what I was looking for... **
Awesome! I am looking forward to Jade Regent more than ever now. It doesn't bother me that the majority takes place in a non-Inner Sea culture, especially since the characters are more likely to be traditional European themed, with the option for Asian themed. Thanks James!
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Creative Director
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Big damn hero fan here too...
If we are doing an AP where the Paladin will not be appropriate how about following that with an AP where the Paladin is very appropriate?
Seems logical to me...
A paladin would work VERY well in Jade Regent. (Provided you're willing to put up with some sassy Chaotic Good NPCs now and then!)
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We've altered the title of the next AP a bit—it's gonna be the "Skull and Shackles" Adventure Path.Hm. So, what happened to the Crossbones? "Skull and Shackles" doesn't really evoke pirates at all for me, unless you know enough Golarion lore to know about the Shackles. To me, this is a worse title than the original "Skull and Bones". It sounds awkward, despite having an alliteration. Also, it duplicates SS as an abbreviation (and even one of the words is the same). Hm.What happened to the Crossbones is that our Pirate Region doesn't have crossbones on the flag; it has crossed shackles.
Also, "Skull and Shackles" sounds better to me due to the alliteration.
Also also, "Skull and Shackles" is more unique, and less generic.
And it's abbreviation is SAS, not SS.
So the PC's are British special forces that go pirate? Cool. :)
Or a Scandinavian airline.