Hey all. I've been surfing these boards and I see arguments all the time from GMs saying a player shouldn't be allowed to do such and such because it's OP and makes it difficult to design encounters. Then I look at the summoner. An embarrassing amount of attacks, strength, utility, the ability to buff and full attack in the same round, pounce, healing; the summoner gets things other classes have to multiclass, spend half their gold, or become 11+ in class levels to do. A summoner is a functioning party in and of himself, with very few weak points except to highly specific issues such as banish or an antimagic field. Have we all decided to just accept this and move on?
Fact of the matter is they aren't OP. They have some nice options, but they also have huge glaring weaknesses. The horrible attack monstrocities can't outfight the primary melee classes. The summoner's spell casting is nice, but nothing spectacular. Overall, its a fun class to play and if you follow the rules with it wont really break your game. You may need to adjust a few things, but that is true with any class.
If you don't believe me, just look at the many times this thread has already come up.
The summoner is indeed powerful, but no more powerful than the classes that were the most powerful already.
Overall, its a fun class to play and if you follow the rules with it wont really break your game.
This most of all. You must follow the rules with the class. If the GM is not comfortable with those rules, or the player is inexperienced it can easily lead to abuse whether intentional or not.
Eidolons are pretty big glass cannons. They tend to have relatively low HP because they always take the average hit points for each HD. Sure they tend to have a high AC, but a couple touch spells, or a grapple-tastic creature, even a lucky hit, and the summoner is left without their main class ability, relying on their less effective SLA's. I've noticed a lot of people forget that they have to spend a standard action to dismiss their eidolon before you can use the SLA this one is pretty important to tone down the hot-swapping of a wounded eidolon for a full health celestial thingy-majig.
Overall, its a fun class to play and if you follow the rules with it wont really break your game.This most of all. You must follow the rules with the class. If the GM is not comfortable with those rules, or the player is inexperienced it can easily lead to abuse whether intentional or not.
Eidolons are pretty big glass cannons. They tend to have relatively low HP because they always take the average hit points for each HD. Sure they tend to have a high AC, but a couple touch spells, or a grapple-tastic creature, even a lucky hit, and the summoner is left without their main class ability, relying on their less effective SLA's. I've noticed a lot of people forget that they have to spend a standard action to dismiss their eidolon before you can use the SLA this one is pretty important to tone down the hot-swapping of a wounded eidolon for a full health celestial thingy-majig.
Most Eidolons I have seen have had pretty misserable ACs too. They can pump them up, but then they lose offensive power.
Like others have said, the summoner isnt overpowered when compared to the strongest classes as long as the rules are followed and the same level of optimization is applied to the summoner as well as the other classes.
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I've played a summoner up to level 12 in society and just got my synthesist summoner up to 3 recently.
Here's some of my thoughts on the class.
In twelve levels I think I summoned a total of three times. Lost your eidolon? Well that's what summon eidolon scrolls are for. Needless to say I could care less about the summon monsters.
That limitation on magic item slots is a big deal. Equipping two characters with one set of slots is a pain. Actually equipping two characters is a pain. Resources are limiting.
Generally at low levels the Summoner does really well but as you hit mid levels other classes, specialists in particular tend to do better. Summoners will never put out as much damage as a fighter or barbarian, cast as well as a cleric or sorc/wiz. Essentially I'd class myself as a fighty bard.
What they are is versatile. One of the most versatile classes in the entire game and I love that. I've never seen two summoner builds the same. You'd be amazed what I can do with borrow skill and eidolon evolution scrolls.
Overpowered? Not in the slightest. I've seen some pretty sick Druid flying charge builds that'd blow your mind.
I've played a summoner up to level 12 in society and just got my synthesist summoner up to 3 recently.
Here's some of my thoughts on the class.
In twelve levels I think I summoned a total of three times. Lost your eidolon? Well that's what summon eidolon scrolls are for. Needless to say I could care less about the summon monsters.
That limitation on magic item slots is a big deal. Equipping two characters with one set of slots is a pain. Actually equipping two characters is a pain. Resources are limiting.
Generally at low levels the Summoner does really well but as you hit mid levels other classes, specialists in particular tend to do better. Summoners will never put out as much damage as a fighter or barbarian, cast as well as a cleric or sorc/wiz. Essentially I'd class myself as a fighty bard.
What they are is versatile. One of the most versatile classes in the entire game and I love that. I've never seen two summoner builds the same. You'd be amazed what I can do with borrow skill and eidolon evolution scrolls.
Overpowered? Not in the slightest. I've seen some pretty sick Druid flying charge builds that'd blow your mind.
Do share. =)
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I'm playing a summoner right now and have made it up to 7th level. My eidolon is pretty frightening in combat, though he's also been taken down as much as the rest of the party combined thanks to the fact he is doing his job of pulling attention.
I think that the part of the summoner that has really left our DM reeling is the versatility of it. Having to deal with something in the water and doing an evolution surge to give him water breathing, or making his attacks magic to deal with DR or the like is pretty potent.
Not to mention the ability to drop a -lot- of summoned creatures that have minute per level duration as your spell like is pretty potent. We found a few swarms that the DM was expecting us to have to avoid because I'm the only arcane caster beside a magus so we don't have much in the way of area effect abilities, but they ended up being taken down by us staying way away and hiding while I sent magma mephits one after the other at them.
I have been playing a summoner for a while now. I will say that the class is very strong at around level 5-7. However, it really falls behind at higher levels.
The problem summoners have is that eidolons have horrible saving throws. My quad eidolon has failed almost every single will save he has been hit with even though he has iron will. Sure, I could give him my cloak of resistance, but what if that leads me to fail against a death effect?
Plus, at high levels, an eidolon needs to be huge sized to keep up with the damage and accuracy that the rest of the party has. I had to set reduce person as one of my spells just to fit my eidolon into buildings.
Don't get me started on how much it stinks to play as a summoner when you're in a giant dimension locked dungeon at high levels, or if your eidolon gets hit by a blasphemy spell and is banished for an entire day!
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I have been playing a summoner for a while now. I will say that the class is very strong at around level 5-7. However, it really falls behind at higher levels.
The problem summoners have is that eidolons have horrible saving throws. My quad eidolon has failed almost every single will save he has been hit with even though he has iron will. Sure, I could give him my cloak of resistance, but what if that leads me to fail against a death effect?
Plus, at high levels, an eidolon needs to be huge sized to keep up with the damage and accuracy that the rest of the party has. I had to set reduce person as one of my spells just to fit my eidolon into buildings.
Don't get me started on how much it stinks to play as a summoner when you're in a giant dimension locked dungeon at high levels, or if your eidolon gets hit by a blasphemy spell and is banished for an entire day!
Entirely correct. My eidolon got hit by a confusion effect and it wasn't pretty. Also I've deliberately avoided size increases beyond the ever present enlarge person wand.
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Summoners are original posters? other people? IRC operators? organized play?
I can't make heads or tails of this thread without some explanation of what OP is!
Over Powered.
Do share. =)
Well as an aside...
Nothing special, but it does make the cavalier cry since his mount choice is far more limited.Basically the druid had some kind of large avian flying charger, lance, ride by attack, spirited charge, rhino armor, etc. Find a way to true strike (UMD or whatever) before your charge for added hilarity.
I experimented myself with such a build when I played a black unicorn with rogue levels and high stealth, she hit like a freight train. But that of course was in a home Kingmaker game.
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I set 4 playtest version summoners against my 4 PCs in a 3.5 game, and it was one of the toughest fights they'd had.
That said, it was an arena setup, where both sides knew they would be limited to one fight per day, so they had the luxury of going nova, with each team member having different spell selection, and buffing each others' eidolons. The PCs also had the disadvantage of being unfamiliar with these foreigners' abilities.
How does the master summoner hold up in pfs? It has a weaken eidolon, but the ability to spam a lot of summon monsters.
From what I've read, everyone focuses on the eidolon but rarely the sla to summon as a standard action and have it last minutes. Seems like that ability would alter a battle more than one big eidolon.
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I set 4 playtest version summoners against my 4 PCs in a 3.5 game, and it was one of the toughest fights they'd had.
That said, it was an arena setup, where both sides knew they would be limited to one fight per day, so they had the luxury of going nova, with each team member having different spell selection, and buffing each others' eidolons. The PCs also had the disadvantage of being unfamiliar with these foreigners' abilities.
Rules on magic? Did you let everyone buff ahead of the fight?
How does the master summoner hold up in pfs? It has a weaken eidolon, but the ability to spam a lot of summon monsters.
From what I've read, everyone focuses on the eidolon but rarely the sla to summon as a standard action and have it last minutes. Seems like that ability would alter a battle more than one big eidolon.
Hold up? How about a great way to get punched in the head by random people since you're spamming summons and pissing off the rest of the table. See the "hordes of summoned monsters" sidebar on page 79 of UM. That doesn't even mention stuff like blocked charge lanes , etc, etc.
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Rules on magic? Did you let everyone buff ahead of the fight?
They could all buff, and did.
However, they prepped loads of ways to improve their saves, resist energy, restore stat loss, and less than their typical melee buffs, since they thought these four inscrutable pygmy guys were wizards or sorcerers, so were expecting to face more offensive spells.They knew the other team had qualified in an earlier four-way combat, using some kind of summoned creatures, and had got descriptions (large gorilla with octopus head, large bipedal elephant wielding two-handed hook, large bipedal crocodile with giant crab claws, and an orangutan), but weren't quite expecting them to come out the gate fully buffed, and stick around.
They also didn't expect the smaller of the four to pull a selection of wands out of its fur, Captain Caveman style, and start throwing round divine magic.
