The relevant parts:
So if I have this straight, the following happens:
1. If you are standing in the area when the spell is cast, you must make a Reflex save or fall (prone condition).
2.A. To move from or onto a greased square, you must make a DC 10 Acrobatics check to move at half speed. If you succeed, you move and gain the flat-footed condition until... when? Until the end of your movement? End of turn? Start of next turn?
2.B. If you fail the Acrobatics check, you do not move and fall (prone condition). Are you flat-footed from attempting to make the check? If so, for how long (as above)?
1. If you are standing in the area when the spell is cast, you must make a Reflex save or fall (prone condition).
Yeap. That part is pretty clear.
2.A. To move from or onto a greased square, you must make a DC 10 Acrobatics check to move at half speed. If you succeed, you move and gain the flat-footed condition until... when? Until the end of your movement? End of turn? Start of next turn?
Until you leave the area of effect or your next turn. You don't qualify for the didn't move on your turn exemption.
2.B. If you fail the Acrobatics check, you do not move and fall (prone condition). Are you flat-footed from attempting to make the check? If so, for how long (as above)?
I would say you're no longer using acrobatics and do not gain the flat-footed condition.
1. If you are standing in the area when the spell is cast, you must make a Reflex save or fall (prone condition).Yeap. That part is pretty clear.
2.A. To move from or onto a greased square, you must make a DC 10 Acrobatics check to move at half speed. If you succeed, you move and gain the flat-footed condition until... when? Until the end of your movement? End of turn? Start of next turn?Until you leave the area of effect or your next turn. You don't qualify for the didn't move on your turn exemption.
2.B. If you fail the Acrobatics check, you do not move and fall (prone condition). Are you flat-footed from attempting to make the check? If so, for how long (as above)?I would say you're no longer using acrobatics and do not gain the flat-footed condition.
I don't think that you aren't flat-footed if you leave the area, you simply are flat-footed until your next turn.
I also think that you are flat-footed even you fail the acrobatics check.
2.B. If you fail the Acrobatics check, you do not move and fall (prone condition). Are you flat-footed from attempting to make the check? If so, for how long (as above)?
Nope, you fell. You don't get flat footed -- you just get prone. (So you take the -4AC vs. melee, but you can roll around to avoid rogueish nastiness)... Until you try to get up.
Anyone who's ever tried to keep their balance while walking on wet ice totally understands how and why this spell works. :)
2.B. If you fail the Acrobatics check, you do not move and fall (prone condition). Are you flat-footed from attempting to make the check? If so, for how long (as above)?Nope, you fell. You don't get flat footed -- you just get prone. (So you take the -4AC vs. melee, but you can roll around to avoid rogueish nastiness)... Until you try to get up.
You are wrong, please check the acrobatics rules.
I think these are the relevant rules:
Cross Narrow Surfaces
First, you can use Acrobatics to move on narrow surfaces and uneven ground without falling. A successful check allows you to move at half speed across such surfaces—only one check is needed per round. Use the following table to determine the base DC, which is then modified by the Acrobatics skill modifiers noted below. While you are using Acrobatics in this way, you are considered flat-footed and lose your Dexterity bonus to your AC (if any). If you take damage while using Acrobatics, you must immediately make another Acrobatics check at the same DC to avoid falling or being knocked prone.
So why would Tilnar be wrong?
I think these are the relevant rules:
So why would Tilnar be wrong?Cross Narrow Surfaces
First, you can use Acrobatics to move on narrow surfaces and uneven ground without falling. A successful check allows you to move at half speed across such surfaces—only one check is needed per round. Use the following table to determine the base DC, which is then modified by the Acrobatics skill modifiers noted below. While you are using Acrobatics in this way, you are considered flat-footed and lose your Dexterity bonus to your AC (if any). If you take damage while using Acrobatics, you must immediately make another Acrobatics check at the same DC to avoid falling or being knocked prone.
Emphasis mine.
Does it say anywhere that:1) if you move past that are you are no longer flat footed?
2) if you fall prone you are no longer flat footed?
Since you used acrobatics (this way) this round you are flat footed.
Since you used acrobatics (this way) this round you are flat footed.
Note use of past tense not present tense.
This is the foundation of why I said I would rule as I did. You are no longer balancing when you're sitting on your butt. Just as you are longer balancing when you leave the area.
If this had been used to cross a pit on a narrow board, would you rule that the PC is still balancing when he is on the other side of the pit? or fell off and is laying at the bottom of a pit?
You are wrong, please check the acrobatics rules.2.B. If you fail the Acrobatics check, you do not move and fall (prone condition). Are you flat-footed from attempting to make the check? If so, for how long (as above)?Nope, you fell. You don't get flat footed -- you just get prone. (So you take the -4AC vs. melee, but you can roll around to avoid rogueish nastiness)... Until you try to get up.
The case we're looking at here is someone who failed the check and fell (see 2b, above). If you're not trying to keep your balance (because, you know, you fell and are prone), you are no longer "using acrobatics this way".
Someone who failed to move but didn't fall (either because they make the [new] REF save or didn't fail by more than 5 -- per the spell description, which is spoilered, above) would be flatfooted and stationary, because they're still making with the balance-checking.
You are wrong, please check the acrobatics rules.2.B. If you fail the Acrobatics check, you do not move and fall (prone condition). Are you flat-footed from attempting to make the check? If so, for how long (as above)?Nope, you fell. You don't get flat footed -- you just get prone. (So you take the -4AC vs. melee, but you can roll around to avoid rogueish nastiness)... Until you try to get up.
The case we're looking at here is someone who failed the check and fell (see 2b, above). If you're not trying to keep your balance (because, you know, you fell and are prone), you are no longer "using acrobatics this way".
Someone who failed to move but didn't fall (either because they make the [new] REF save or didn't fail by more than 5 -- per the spell description, which is spoilered, above) would be flatfooted and stationary, because they're still making with the balance-checking.
So......
let me try to break down what you are saying:you roll acrobatics and:
1)you make the check and you are flat footed
2)you fail the check by 2 and you are flat footed
3)you fail the check by 5 and you are not flat footed because you are prone
right?
if yes then [sarcasm]yes that does make sense[/sarcasm]
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I concur with Tim and Tilnar, if you are currently using the Acrobatics skill to balance your way across a patch of grease you are flat-footed, but if you fall you become prone and lose the other condition.
Some conditions last a whole turn, others just portions of them. Another example of a movement skill that is similar is Climb. While climbing you lose your Dex to AC (similar to flat-footed but not quite as restrictive) but only during movement spent climbing, not the whole turn.
Ex. Amiri the Barbarian is at the base of 10 foot cliff and uses her move action to climb it, at the top she uses her standard action to move 40 feet away from the edge. She loses her Dex to AC only in her first move action climbing the cliff, but regains it while moving normally away from the edge.
--Vrock climbing kit
I concur with Tim and Tilnar, if you are currently using the Acrobatics skill to balance your way across a patch of grease you are flat-footed, but if you fall you become prone and lose the other condition.
Where does it say that conditions (prone and flat footed specifically) can't exist together? And by the same logic you use when you fail your check (and as a result you don't move) you shouldn't be considered flat footed.
Some conditions last a whole turn, others just portions of them. Another example of a movement skill that is similar is Climb. While climbing you lose your Dex to AC (similar to flat-footed but not quite as restrictive) but only during movement spent climbing, not the whole turn.
You are kidding right? I am considered flat footed while climbing only on my turn, then it doesn't really matter since the only case that this would actually inhibit me are readied actions and AoO and only if my movement provoked it because if it was provoked by spellcasting then i am not flat footed. Does that sound correct to you?
So......
let me try to break down what you are saying:
you roll acrobatics and:
1)you make the check and you are flat footed
2)you fail the check by 2 and you are flat footed
3)you fail the check by 5 and you are not flat footed because you are prone
right?
if yes then [sarcasm]yes that does make sense[/sarcasm]
Yes, it does make sense, thanks for noticing....
More specifically:
a) You make your check and get to move, and are flat footed - because you're still on something slippery and trying not to fall
b) You fail the check but make your Ref, you don't get to move and are flat footed - because you're still on something slipper and trying not to fall
c) You fail the check (or ref) and are *not* flat footed because, as someone who has fallen, you are no longer trying not to fall.
What, exactly, makes you flatfooted in case c? You've already fallen, so you're no longer trying to keep your balance, and you're taking a -4 to AC because all you can do is roll around.
Prone is the penalty for failure, because it's a nasty, nasty condition all its own. It puts you at -4 to attack in melee, prevents you from attacking at all with a ranged weapon, and forces you to use an action to stand up. At which point, if the grease is still there -- guess what happens?
But hey - thanks for the sarcasm. Always appreciated. (Oh, sorry, didn't use a fake tag. My bad.)
You are kidding right? I am considered flat footed while climbing only on my turn, then it doesn't really matter since the only case that this would actually inhibit me are readied actions and AoO and only if my movement provoked it because if it was provoked by spellcasting then i am not flat footed. Does that sound correct to you?
What about if you climb to the top of a cliff and then move normally are you considered flat-footed for your whole turn? until your next turn?
I'll repeat what I asked above about acrobatics: If this had been used to cross a pit on a narrow board, would you rule that the PC is still balancing when he is on the other side of the pit? or fell off and is laying at the bottom of a pit?
Yes, it does make sense, thanks for noticing....More specifically:
a) You make your check and get to move, and are flat footed - because you're still on something slippery and trying not to fall
b) You fail the check but make your Ref, you don't get to move and are flat footed - because you're still on something slipper and trying not to fall
c) You fail the check (or ref) and are *not* flat footed because, as someone who has fallen, you are no longer trying not to fall.
What, exactly, makes you flatfooted in case c? You've already fallen, so you're no longer trying to keep your balance, and you're taking a -4 to AC because all you can do is roll around.
Prone is the penalty for failure, because it's a nasty, nasty condition all its own. It puts you at -4 to attack in melee, prevents you from attacking at all with a ranged weapon, and forces you to use an action to stand up. At which point, if the grease is still there -- guess what happens?
But hey - thanks for the sarcasm. Always appreciated. (Oh, sorry, didn't use a fake tag. My bad.)
First of all i used the tag in order to avoid misunderstanding.
Now the flat footed is worse than prone (at least IMO), and what i am trying to say is that it doesn't matter if you are prone or not you tried to move and you pay for that try (by being flat footed) and if you fail that try (by 5+) you pay by being prone. The system's intent is perfect clear, i think that you are trying too much to be realistic.
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You are kidding right? I am considered flat footed while climbing only on my turn, then it doesn't really matter since the only case that this would actually inhibit me are readied actions and AoO and only if my movement provoked it because if it was provoked by spellcasting then i am not flat footed. Does that sound correct to you?
No, you are considered to lose your Dex to AC (not flat-footed) during your movement, not your entire turn.
These are exactly the things that a GM plans on when they design encounters where non standard movement types are going to factor in. I know that if I have a grease casting Sorcerer that I'll for damn sure want a creature with some reach (longspear wielding rogues!) to take advantage of my battlefield control spells. If I throw in a series of gargantuan sized stairs to fight on (the aforementioned 10 foot cliffs) then I'll want either archers with readied actions or flying creatures to harass climbers.
--Vrocky Mountain High
I love grease. I played a sorc in a past game...BBEG popped up...oh looks its a cleric! How do you stop said cleric in his tracks? why...grease his holy symbol when he presents it to cast ,then toss a few dispel magics while your group wails on him. Needless to say that took the steam out of him lol.
Now the flat footed is worse than prone (at least IMO), and what i am trying to say is that it doesn't matter if you are prone or not you tried to move and you pay for that try (by being flat footed) and if you fail that try (by 5+) you pay by being prone. The system's intent is perfect clear, i think that you are trying too much to be realistic.
Frankly Leo, I tend to agree with you.
If you attempt to use the acrobatics skill to move across treacherous terrain, you are flat footed (regardless of success or not) until you perform your next action, just like at the start of combat. If it was intended that you loose the flat-footed condition upon exiting the terrain that caused the acrobatics check in the first place, then acrobatics should say that clearly. Failing that, neither the PFSRD nor the FAQs say otherwise. Without a Dev saying their intent was otherwise, the rules as written are clear and explicit. Others seem to be adding an implicit ending to flat-footed that doesn't appear to exist anywhere.
If you fall, and by doing so loose all the rest of your actions this turn, you still haven't started your next action yet, so are still flat footed.
The Prone condition doesn't say anything about negating the Flat-Footed condition, so that means that, by RAW, they stack.
What about if you climb to the top of a cliff and then move normally are you considered flat-footed for your whole turn? until your next turn?
As you haven't started your next action yet, you are still flat footed. Anything gaining you a condition doesn't go away until something would cancel that condition. Most conditions state what cancels them, including flat-footed, which is taking your next action.
As an example, if you have 30' of movement and use a move action to move across 10' of difficult terrain and 10' of normal terrain, you have already spent your move action to do so. You may or may not have a standard action, but if you do, then you can take that standard action and clear your flat footed condition. If you don't have a standard action because you used it already, or you used a full action to get that 20' of movement (being slowed, encumbered, etc...) then you have to wait until your next turn to lose the flat footed. If there are no actions you can perform, then you are still flat footed until you have an action that you can perform.
| 4 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Grease is really weird!
It looks like the reason for no clear consensus is that the rules are simply absent where they should explain it. Grease itself should have a clause stating how and when flat-footed applies. Acrobatics should state during which parts of the action and if at any length thereafter flat-footed applies.
Neither do. They should. This needs an errata.
If you attempt to use the acrobatics skill to move across treacherous terrain, you are flat footed (regardless of success or not) until you perform your next action, just like at the start of combat. If it was intended that you loose the flat-footed condition upon exiting the terrain that caused the acrobatics check in the first place, then acrobatics should say that clearly. Failing that, neither the PFSRD nor the FAQs say otherwise. Without a Dev saying their intent was otherwise, the rules as written are clear and explicit. Others seem to be adding an implicit ending to flat-footed that doesn't appear to exist anywhere.
If you fall, and by doing so loose all the rest of your actions this turn, you still haven't started your next action yet, so are still flat footed.
Did I miss something here, why does falling cause you to loose the rest of your turn?
If I move into a greased area and fall, I still have a standard action to with as I wish. So, this is my next action and I am no longer flat-footed, correct?
Grease is really weird!
Those musicals usually are.
Grease is really weird!Those musicals usually are.
Oh you
grease is weird...
I think from the balance and intent corner though that leo makes the most sense.
Why would they setup a situation where failing more is better for you.
If you want real life imagery, perhaps your character cannot use his dex to avoid attacks while on the ground because the ground is slippery form grease. If you are lying still on the ground, then you are also not trying to use your dex to avoid attacks and thus you are still flatfooted.
No, because then you might as well use 3.5 version of grease. Paizo doesn't want grease to be as strong which is why they changed the wording.
No, because then you might as well use 3.5 version of grease. Paizo doesn't want grease to be as strong which is why they changed the wording.grease is weird...
I think from the balance and intent corner though that leo makes the most sense.
Why would they setup a situation where failing more is better for you.
If you want real life imagery, perhaps your character cannot use his dex to avoid attacks while on the ground because the ground is slippery form grease. If you are lying still on the ground, then you are also not trying to use your dex to avoid attacks and thus you are still flatfooted.
Yes Paizo changed the Grease spell from 3.5 but i can't say that now it's less powerful. Anyway the grease spell has the following sentence:
"Creatures that do not move on their turn do not need to make this check and are not considered flat-footed."
So creatures who didn't attempt the check they aren't flat footed, right?
That clearly means that anyone who attempts the check are flat footed.
Did I miss something here, why does falling cause you to loose the rest of your turn?
If I move into a greased area and fall, I still have a standard action to with as I wish. So, this is my next action and I am no longer flat-footed, correct?
In and of itself, it doesn't cause you to loose any unspent actions. Sorry about that wording there, should have worded that better. (A lot of the GMs I've played with though, said that if YOU did something that caused you to fall, you're out of actions until your next turn as you recover from falling on your backside...) In my experience though, when you encounter grease, you're usually out of actions until the start of your next turn (ie: it's not currently your turn). Most PCs won't move into a grease field if they have other options, including pulling out that bow that they hardly ever use.
By the rules, if you still have standard actions remaining, you should be able to still use them. You do have to use that standard action to eliminate flat footed. About the best standard action I can think of doing until you can stand up is Total Defense (the +4 dodge bonus to AC helps offset the prone penalty, and you stop being flat footed)if someone is already threatening or you think they likely will threaten by the time you can get up, unless you have a special ability that allows you to stand up right away...