Double headed Eidolon and bite evolution

[cfalcon]

Ultimate Magic allows you to make an Eidolon with quite a few heads. They don't gain bite attacks, but the head evolution allows you to take a bite evolution to gain, you know, another bite attack.

Now, if you went this path, obviously the Improved Natural Attack feat would buff all your bites at once (I think that's not allowed in society play because it's from the Bestiary).

However:

1)- What about the evolution that improves the die size of an attack? Does it affect one bite per time taken, or all bites?

2)- What about the bite evolution itself? You are able to take it and then add 1.5x your strength modifier to your bite attack. Is that per bite attack, or one pays for all?

[cfalcon]

Bumping this, does anyone know how these evolutions work?

[Varthanna]

cfalcon wrote:

Bumping this, does anyone know how these evolutions work?

Improved natural attack would bump up all bite attacks, like it does for all claws, or all tentacles, all slams, etc.

I would make someone spend two bites to gain the 1.5x str. If you had 4 heads and wanted them to all have 1.5, I'd make you get bite 8 times, but IDK the RAW.

[bigkilla]

I would say you have to buy the Improved attack for each bite,but the wording is kind of hazy.

Improved Damage (Ex)

One of the eidolon’s natural attacks is particularly deadly. Select one natural attack form and increase the damage die type by one step. This evolution can be selected more than once. Its effects do not stack. Each time an eidolon selects this evolution, it applies to a different natural attack.

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

bigkilla wrote:

I would say you have to buy the Improved attack for each bite,but the wording is kind of hazy.

Improved Damage (Ex)

One of the eidolon’s natural attacks is particularly deadly. Select one natural attack form and increase the damage die type by one step. This evolution can be selected more than once. Its effects do not stack. Each time an eidolon selects this evolution, it applies to a different natural attack.

"One attack form" means all bites, all claws, etc. Looks pretty clear to me.

[bigkilla]

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

bigkilla wrote:

I would say you have to buy the Improved attack for each bite,but the wording is kind of hazy.

Improved Damage (Ex)

One of the eidolon’s natural attacks is particularly deadly. Select one natural attack form and increase the damage die type by one step. This evolution can be selected more than once. Its effects do not stack. Each time an eidolon selects this evolution, it applies to a different natural attack.

"One attack form" means all bites, all claws, etc. Looks pretty clear to me.

Yet it also states One of the Eidolons Natural attacks.If it has two bites or three even one would mean one not all. You could argue that each of the bites constitutes a natural attack form. The wording seems hazy to me.

[cfalcon]

Wasn't this solved? I mean, this isn't an obscure question.

[bigkilla]

cfalcon wrote:

Wasn't this solved? I mean, this isn't an obscure question.

Where was it solved?

[chavamana]

From my reading for each head you can add a bite, if you want the bite to have 1.5x STR each bite needs improved bite. Additionally because of the mechanics of the eidolon, each bit is considered a separate natural attack and as such you would need Improved Natural Attack per bite that you want it to apply to.

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

bigkilla wrote:

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

bigkilla wrote:

I would say you have to buy the Improved attack for each bite,but the wording is kind of hazy.

Improved Damage (Ex)

One of the eidolon’s natural attacks is particularly deadly. Select one natural attack form and increase the damage die type by one step. This evolution can be selected more than once. Its effects do not stack. Each time an eidolon selects this evolution, it applies to a different natural attack.

"One attack form" means all bites, all claws, etc. Looks pretty clear to me.

Yet it also states One of the Eidolons Natural attacks.If it has two bites or three even one would mean one not all. You could argue that each of the bites constitutes a natural attack form. The wording seems hazy to me.

One natural attack formvs "one natural attack." One form, not one bite. It's quite clear if you use the english language properly.

[Nigrescence]

The bite is a form of natural attack, just as the claw is a form of natural attack, just as the tentacle is a form of natural attack, just as the wing buffet is a form of natural attack.

If I have two wings, their wing buffets are the same natural attack form. If I improve my skill with the wing buffet form of natural attack, I've improved my skill with both wing buffets, since they're the same form.

It doesn't say you improve one natural attack. It says you improve one natural attack form. There's a difference. If you want to see, look at the Poison evolution. You pick one attack, not one attack type or form. Meaning only one bite or sting attack gets the Poison ability. On the other hand, Grab applies to a type of natural attack. So if you have twenty tentacles, and your Grab applies to tentacles, you can Grab with all of your tentacles, but not with your Claws.

You wouldn't suggest that a weapon proficiency must be taken once for every weapon of that type you plan to wield, so you need to take two proficiency feats if you want to dual wield the same exotic weapons.

No, you become proficient with the exotic weapon. Period. Wield away.

[Lonwyr]

I think nearly everyone is right but talking about different evolutions.

1) Improved Damage: You have to buy it once for each FORM (bite in our discussion) to increase the dice for damage by one step (1d6 -> 1d8 -> ...)

"One of the eidolon’s natural attacks is particularly deadly. Select one natural attack form and increase the damage die type by one step. This
evolution can be selected more than once. Its effects do not stack. Each time an eidolon selects this evolution, it applies to a different natural attack."

2) Spend an additional point in a bite attack to get 1.5 times his Str-Mod.

"Bite (Ex): [...] If the eidolon already has a bite attack, this volution allows it to deal 1-1/2 times its Strength modifier on damage rolls made with its bite."

So my solution would be:
Sam the summoner want to have his eidolon to chew on every enemy in sight... he decides to buy 2 additional heads (2x2 evolution points), 1 more bite (1 evopoint), increases his bite-damage-dice by one step (1 point) and make the first bite more dangerous by adding a 2nd row of teeth or whatever by spending 1 point.
At the end we have 3 heads: one without a bite (maybe for grinning at the foes while chewing), one with a "normal" bite with increased damage 1d8 (medium) + Str-Mod and one with even more ouch: 1d8 + 1.5x Str-Mod