Fused Eidolon

[Carbon D. Metric]

After it is dismissed through damage and resummoned it is supposed to come back at half health as normal, well since the way their HP works it is currently impossible to ever get them up past this limit, and the only real way to "heal" them is to kill them and resummon. This cannot be the intent of the thing.

Can you heal it in any way since it has temporary hit points?

This is an issue that NEEDS direct attention from either a developer, author, or at LEAST a PFS offical since at current they are nearly unplayable.

[Happler]

What about the spell rejuvenate eidolon?

[Scipion del Ferro]

Simply put. Your eidolon is never damaged. Thus it never needs healed. It'll take me a couple minutes to edit in a clarification. Each time you summon it you gain temporary hit points equal to eidolon's hit points.

[Abraham spalding]

Happler wrote:

What about the spell rejuvenate eidolon?

Wouldn't work because the eidolon can't be targeted separately remember?

And healing spells don't restore temporary hit points.

Basically it comes down to what Scipion says (which I agree with).

The real key is knowing when to dismiss the eidolon and hope your GM agree that it always comes back with your full temporary HP to summon it again before your next encounter.

[Happler]

Abraham spalding wrote:

Happler wrote:

What about the spell rejuvenate eidolon?

Wouldn't work because the eidolon can't be targeted separately remember?

And healing spells don't restore temporary hit points.

Basically it comes down to what Scipion says (which I agree with).

The real key is knowing when to dismiss the eidolon and hope your GM agree that it always comes back with your full temporary HP to summon it again before your next encounter.

thanks, not having a copy of Ultimate Magic yet, I had not read the Fused Eildlon yet. But I have had a conversation with someone who had missed that spell out of the APG and was wondering how to heal their eildlon.. :P

[Happler]

Abraham spalding wrote:

Happler wrote:

What about the spell rejuvenate eidolon?

Wouldn't work because the eidolon can't be targeted separately remember?

And healing spells don't restore temporary hit points.

Basically it comes down to what Scipion says (which I agree with).

The real key is knowing when to dismiss the eidolon and hope your GM agree that it always comes back with your full temporary HP to summon it again before your next encounter.

So, just to check, are the following spells then no good for a fused eidolon?

Unfetter (makes sense since you cannot seperate the two anyway)
Evolution Surge, (cannot target the eidolon)
Transmogrify (cannot target the eidolon)

And this one could not be used against them?
Devolution (cannnot target the fused eidolon)

[thepuregamer]

happler wrote:

Unfetter (makes sense since you cannot seperate the two anyway)
Evolution Surge, (cannot target the eidolon)
Transmogrify (cannot target the eidolon)

And this one could not be used against them?
Devolution (cannot target the fused eidolon)

I am not sure that the eidolon cannot be targeted. Just that he cannot be targeted separately from you. So I think you could still evolution surge, transmogrify, and devolution a fused eidolon.

[Scipion del Ferro]

Targeting isn't the problem. You can target yourself because you count as the eidolon and as the summoner. The issue with magical healing is that temporary hit points cannot be healed. Magically, naturally, ever. Unless someone visits the eidolons home plain it won't be hurt. Its hit points are just used to determine how many temporary hit points you receive when summoning it.

[Happler]

Scipion del Ferro wrote:

Targeting isn't the problem. You can target yourself because you count as the eidolon and as the summoner. The issue with magical healing is that temporary hit points cannot be healed. Magically, naturally, ever. Unless someone visits the eidolons home plain it won't be hurt. Its hit points are just used to determine how many temporary hit points you receive when summoning it.

Thank you again. I really should pick up a copy of that book.. I like more archtypes.

[Abraham spalding]

Scipion del Ferro wrote:

Targeting isn't the problem. You can target yourself because you count as the eidolon and as the summoner. The issue with magical healing is that temporary hit points cannot be healed. Magically, naturally, ever. Unless someone visits the eidolons home plain it won't be hurt. Its hit points are just used to determine how many temporary hit points you receive when summoning it.

No you don't -- you count as your regular type and an outsider -- whichever is worse for the synthesist. In this case being your normal type is worse since those spells don't affect your normal type and immediately fizzle because of this.

[thepuregamer]

those spells do not rely on type. They target an eidolon. You and your eidolon cannot be targeted separately but your eidolon can still be targeted.

Also, the share spells ability would allow the summoner to cast spells that require a specific type on himself(like enlarge person).

[Abraham spalding]

so how are you targeted? Can't target the eidolon without targeting yourself -- and in all cases whatever type is worse for spell effects based on type is what you use. The worse case with lesser rejuvenate is for you to be type humanoid -- which is a type -- as such you can't be targeted since you count as humanoid not outsider or eidolon.

This spell only works on eidolons -- a type of outsider. It is targeted based on type -- it won't work on a humanoid, or a monstrous humanoid or an outsider(demon) or magical beast, animal undead, etc.

Since that is the case it specifically targets type -- since it targets type you use whatever type is worse for you, in this case your actual type -- humanoid -- is worse since that renders the healing ineffective.

As such you count as the humanoid type and cannot be healed.

[camthegiant]

Scipion del Ferro wrote:

Targeting isn't the problem. You can target yourself because you count as the eidolon and as the summoner. The issue with magical healing is that temporary hit points cannot be healed. Magically, naturally, ever. Unless someone visits the eidolons home plain it won't be hurt. Its hit points are just used to determine how many temporary hit points you receive when summoning it.

Then by your own argument shouldn't the fused Eidolon come back at full health every time you summon it because its own hitpoints are never truly damaged?

[thepuregamer]

Abraham spalding wrote:

so how are you targeted? Can't target the eidolon without targeting yourself -- and in all cases whatever type is worse for spell effects based on type is what you use. The worse case with lesser rejuvenate is for you to be type humanoid -- which is a type -- as such you can't be targeted since you count as humanoid not outsider or eidolon.

This spell only works on eidolons -- a type of outsider. It is targeted based on type -- it won't work on a humanoid, or a monstrous humanoid or an outsider(demon) or magical beast, animal undead, etc.

Since that is the case it specifically targets type -- since it targets type you use whatever type is worse for you, in this case your actual type -- humanoid -- is worse since that renders the healing ineffective.

As such you count as the humanoid type and cannot be healed.

relevant text:

While fused, the synthesist counts as both his original
type and as an outsider for any effect related to type,
whichever is worse for the synthesist. Spells such as
banishment or dismissal work normally on the eidolon, but
the synthesist is unaffected. Neither the synthesist nor his
eidolon can be targeted separately, as they are fused into one
creature.

for any effect related to type... creature type. eidolon is not a creature type. So, the spell works normally.

also the summoner still has

share spells:

Share Spells (Ex): The summoner may cast a spell with a target of “you” on his eidolon (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on himself. A summoner may cast spells on his eidolon even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the eidolon's type (outsider). Spells cast in this way must come from the summoner spell list. This ability does not allow the eidolon to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells.

So he can still cast spells himself that target creature types because share spells allows him to do so.

[Abraham spalding]

Nice use of share spell... at that point I think I agree you could use share spell to make rejuvenate eidolon work... also you could use it to heal yourself then (since it can work on you)...

Makes me ask the question of who it heals though? You or the eidolon or both? After all you can't target the eidolon and you can't target yourself -- you have to target the both of you, and the spell only affects one creature.

I'm beginning to agree Bartgroks that this whole concept needs a lot of cleaning up.

[thepuregamer]

Abraham spalding wrote:

I'm beginning to agree Bartgroks that this whole concept needs a lot of cleaning up.

I definitely agree with you there. While I think you can cast the spells on yourself/ your eidolon, I have no idea what rejuvenate eidolon would do. The whole healing your fused eidolon situation is fubar.

There is so little direction on that part so clarification is going to be necessary. I also wish they would remove the eidolon bab thing. Makes synthesist it so the only way to play a synthesist, is without multiclassing. I might want to pick up an oracle lvl or an alchemist lvl for example but I am definitely not doing it if my bab drops even further back.

[Scipion del Ferro]

camthegiant wrote:

Scipion del Ferro wrote:

Targeting isn't the problem. You can target yourself because you count as the eidolon and as the summoner. The issue with magical healing is that temporary hit points cannot be healed. Magically, naturally, ever. Unless someone visits the eidolons home plain it won't be hurt. Its hit points are just used to determine how many temporary hit points you receive when summoning it.

Then by your own argument shouldn't the fused Eidolon come back at full health every time you summon it because its own hitpoints are never truly damaged?

This is correct. Every time you summon your eidolon you gain it's hit points as temporary hit points. If those hit points hit 0 it is banished. Then you have to spend a minute summoning it again and you get them back.

One important thing to note is that a synthesist can always summon his eidolon back after only a minute, because it can never be slain (which would require you to wait until the next day.)

[Abraham spalding]

All in all the whole thing is just a cluster...

How would the eidolon's inability to wear armor interact here too? Does the eidolon need the weapon training evolution still for you to use weapons? What happens if the eidolon wears magical equipment?

[thepuregamer]

Abraham spalding wrote:

All in all the whole thing is just a cluster...

How would the eidolon's inability to wear armor interact here too? Does the eidolon need the weapon training evolution still for you to use weapons? What happens if the eidolon wears magical equipment?

I would just say that the synthesist cannot wear armor while fused. Eidolon AC is already good enough. If you could also get armor while fused, you would have an extra 5 more ac late game.

[Scipion del Ferro]

Abraham spalding wrote:

All in all the whole thing is just a cluster...

How would the eidolon's inability to wear armor interact here too? Does the eidolon need the weapon training evolution still for you to use weapons? What happens if the eidolon wears magical equipment?

Since the eidolon appears around the summoner I'm guessing the armor rule still applies for it. Weapon proficiency could probably be ruled in favor of "whatever the summoner is skilled with" since the summoner seems to control the brains (skills, feats and such.)

Magical equipment is likely the same as normal. Though in this case I'm not sure why you would equip anything on your eidolon. Unless you wanted to sneak a ton of magical gear into a restrict area...

Just guessing

[Abraham spalding]

Scipion del Ferro wrote:

Abraham spalding wrote:

All in all the whole thing is just a cluster...

How would the eidolon's inability to wear armor interact here too? Does the eidolon need the weapon training evolution still for you to use weapons? What happens if the eidolon wears magical equipment?

Since the eidolon appears around the summoner I'm guessing the armor rule still applies for it. Weapon proficiency could probably be ruled in favor of "whatever the summoner is skilled with" since the summoner seems to control the brains (skills, feats and such.)

Magical equipment is likely the same as normal. Though in this case I'm not sure why you would equip anything on your eidolon. Unless you wanted to sneak a ton of magical gear into a restrict area...

Just guessing

See that doesn't hold up since you gain all abilities of the eidolon -- which includes inabilities such as not being able to wear armor or use weapons. Eidolon's can't use Armor -- you are the eidolon -- you can't use armor. Also it states you use your eidolon's stats as your own -- so if you boost the eidolon's stats then use those as your base stats and proceed to boost from there... see the problem now? It's another part that isn't adequately explained.

"But you share slots so how are you going to boost your stats while the eidolon is wearing the magic equipment that is setting your baseline?"

Bull's Strength.

[Nigrescence]

Abraham spalding wrote:

Bull's Strength.

By your own logic; your Eidolon can't cast spells, therefore you can't cast spells; your Eidolon has no skills, therefore you can't use skills. An ability being gained is not the same as an ability being lost, or an inability. An inability is a lack of an ability, not something specifically precluding another ability or an ability that stops you from doing something. Gaining the abilities of one thing doesn't mean you automatically lose your own.

Additionally, the clause about the Eidolon not being able to wear armor is a disability or an incapability, not an inability. It specifically precludes the Eidolon from wearing armor, which is different.

Fused Eidolon wrote:

While fused with his eidolon, the synthesist can use all of his own abilities and gear.

They even included a clause stating exactly this.

You direct your Eidolon while fused. If you are proficient with a weapon, your fused self is proficient with that same weapon, since it's your own ability.

I would say that you can wear armor, but it doesn't help your fused form. If your Eidolon is no longer fused with you, however, your armor will still be on you, which might help to save you. That might be a DM's call, however, unless there's a specific clarification on the matter.

[Scipion del Ferro]

The reason I think an eidolon can use weapons as per your proficiency, but not armor is because the Armor section of eidolons specifically calls out that they cannot wear armor. Whereas with weapons, eidolons are simply, by default, not proficient with them. They certainly aren't forbidden to even use them untrained. If there was a line that said; Due to an eidolons constantly shifting nature they cannot wield weapons Then I would agree that even if the summoner were proficient they couldn't use weapons. Like Nigresence quated, fused eidolon even says they can use the synthesists abilities and gear (proficiencies are usually such an ability.)

Now...RAW does bring up an interesting point, because your physical stats are replaced by the eidolon, certain stat boosts will not carry over to the eidolon. Specifically ability points gained through leveling, and permanent ones such as those from tomes (for this just have your eidolon read the book...) If the summoner was wearing a Belt of Strength and summons his eidolon, it would replace the summoner's stats and then begin receiving the temporary bonus from the Belt. If the eidolon wears it, then the summoner would gain the stats of the normal eidolon, and the belt would after time count as a permanent boost to its ability scores like usual since it never removes the belt, even on it's home plane, presumably.

[Carbon D. Metric]

So it doesn't look like we are any closer to getting some word on this yet. It seems like the intention is pretty clear that you should be able to heal it somehow, especially through the rejuvenate spells.

The bit about who is wearing what equipment also has me curious, I would be half tempted to argue that any equipment worn by one of them should be treated as both wearing it, simply for convenience and the fact regardless they only have 1 set of magic equipment slots between them anyway, why not. Call it magical.

[Skylancer4]

Carbon D. Metric wrote:

So it doesn't look like we are any closer to getting some word on this yet. It seems like the intention is pretty clear that you should be able to heal it somehow, especially through the rejuvenate spells.

The bit about who is wearing what equipment also has me curious, I would be half tempted to argue that any equipment worn by one of them should be treated as both wearing it, simply for convenience and the fact regardless they only have 1 set of magic equipment slots between them anyway, why not. Call it magical.

How dare you bring intent to a RAW discussion!!! ;-)

As much as I like the idea behind the archtype, I think the real answer with this stuff is "Talk to the DM." I like to argue RAW as much as anyone, but the condradictions in wording lead to rules that blatently go against any semblance of reasonable intent (you can't heal the eidolon as they are temp hp, is just a stupid stupid thing).

If I had the time, I would honestly just rewrite it to work with the confines of RAW and post it in the advice or homebrew forum, with a "did I get it right" towards the end with the hopes one of the paizo folks would chime in. Though I personally would also be giving the fused eidolon feats and 1 skill point per level (the same a "mindless" creature would be getting for all intents and purposes). They have homogenized the rules across the playing field and then drop a creature that breaks all those rules for no good reason? You are already losing a thinking active body on the battlefield, basically a customizable cohort, which is a huge benefit in action economy. Give it a limited feat list even, things that don't require "thought" or "instinctual" type feats, so the summoner can't take too much of an advantage of it.

[Mr. Green]

I'm re-awaking an ancient thread, please forgive me. Some of the answers have been made FAQs now. You heal with you spells form the summoner, You use your proficiency for weapons and your feats. And the all important question of if you are wearing armor does the fused for benefit. The answer is no.

However what if you "the summoner" are not wearing the armor. What if the armor is put on after you fuse. Sense you are using your feats. I can solidly agree with the fact that if the summoner has armor on it does not help, because the creature is on the outside of the Armor. However what if the Armor is on the out side of the fused form?

As I understand it, the Eidolon surrounds the summoner. Providing some hp and some base armor. Otherwise the summoner is basically driving a robot.

Your are the brains, you decided how and when it moves, you control the movement in any descriptive way you like. But why can I not armor the darn thing.

I like the concept of actually having to have the fused form wear belts that boost Physical stats, while the caster has the headband to boost mental stats. It works both visually and mechanically.

The Eidolon wields the sword, you just control the arm. The Eidolon holds the spell components, you just say the words and move the hands in the right way. Your adventuring gear is on the outside of the fused form so that way it can be used correctly.

It seems to me a little common sense should be applied to his class.

[Stubs McKenzie]

Fused Eidolons are still governed by normal Eidolon rules, so they may never wear armor (it will disrupt the bond between you and crawling inside your Eidolon's colon).

[Artanthos]

By the last developer comment on the subject, you effectively loose usage of your armor slot while fused.

This would mean not just items classified as armor, but anything occupying that body slot.

[Talynonyx]

Luckily, the armor and body slot are not the same.

[Unmitigated]

]The synthesist gains the eidolon’s hit points as temporary hit points.

[url=http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/paizo---summoner-archetypes/synthesist wrote:

Synthesist - Fused Link]Each hit point sacrificed this way prevents 1 point of damage done to the eidolon (thus preventing the loss of the summoner’s temporary hit points), preventing the eidolon from being sent back to its home plane.

Based on Fused Link, the tie between the temporary hit points of the summoner and the hit points of the eidolon is bidirectional. Ergo, casting Rejuvenate Eidolon on yourself (or sharing it with share spells, however you justify it working to yourself by RAW) does restore hit points to your eidolon, and in turn gives you more temporary hit points. This is not intent, this is easily provable with the wording of the ability.

Furthermore, it is supported by James Joyce's confirmation that while you have the eidolon fused, your Str/Dex/Con are replaced by those of your eidolon; if you receive an attack that causes physical ability score damage (poison, energy drain, etc), it goes to the eidolon, not yourself.

This creates a completely separate problem. What happens if your eidolon is brought to 0 Con?

EDIT: Regarding armor - Why not just cast Mage Armor or wear bracers?

[Rocky Williams 530]

Alot, if not all, of the questions here have been hashed out already in the massive synthesist thread. The official FAQ has been updated to answer some of the questions. Rejuvenate eidolon, in it's multiple incarnations, is the only thing that can heal the eidolon's temporary HP pool, other than it "dying" and being brought back the next day at half hp. You can wear, but do not gain ANY benefit of, armor while fused. This includes AC and magical bonuses. You CAN wear bracers of armor though. Best AC possible would be to make your eidolons armor all natural armor, use mage armor till you can afford or find a bracers of armor +5 or higher, then find/buy an amulet of natural armor for a natural armor enhancement. No shield is needed/usable because at a certain level you get a shield bonus automatically.