I've been snapping up a lot of APs lately, and I've got them all except for the three mentioned in the title. I've heard that as far as the APs go, these ones are near the bottom of the barrel. Are these three worth picking up (that is, dropping around $80 for any given AP, as I'd purchase the whole thing at once). What exactly is the theme of them, and what is it about them that people seem to have problems with?
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It depends what you like. Are you buying them because you intend to play or because you intend to read them? And do you have preferences for different types of scenario? I've read all three, played none. All three are plot-driven.
Second Darkness has been described as rail-roady, but I found it a perfectly OK read, though I didn't care so much for part 1 (the author was not playing to his strengths, and the drow barely show up except at the very, very end). It's a "beat the drow, save the world" campaign, the PCs get to pretend to be drow in one section, and end up in the deep Underdark. But a lot of the action (at least the first three parts) doesn't go anywhere near the Underdark.
Legacy has an interesting plot conceit, an Arabian Nights feel, and is quite dungeon-y in parts - for me, it was better in the desert and less so when it goes plane-hopping. Part 1, by Erik Mona, is good, and part 2 is a good dungeon. The party then get dragged into a demi-plane prison which I think was an attempt to evoke a sort of Sinbad-y voyage thing - it's OK. The City of Brass angle is a bit of a damp squib - you are trapped in one building for the whole of it. And the climactic dungeon is back where the party was before, but a new level. The main scenarios for this (and Second Darkness? can't remember) are shorter than you might expect, as they contain a standalone scenario - it wasn't a successful format and they dropped it.
Council of Thieves has a good grungy sort of feel, it's set completely in Cheliax, and is an urban campaign pretty much in its entirety. Some people didn't like that it doesn't go as high in level terms as some of the other APs. Some people felt (stupidly, in my opinion) that an AP in Cheliax that didn't get to overthrow Cheliax was somehow a "fail" - you basically get to save a city, but the regime stays the same. But I thought it was OK - an AP where the PCs get to do some good while remaining under the strictures of a totalitarian regime. And it stays very urban all the way through, unlike CotCT which was criticised for wandering away from Korvosa for a large portion of its length.
Personally, I've liked the recent crop of "sandbox" APs much less than the ones above, but then I like plot. So it will boil down to preferences. But I should stress again, I read them, I didn't play them.
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I don't know about Second Darkness or Council of Thieves, but Legacy of Fire is wonderful!
The big complaints of it are that, for something like 2/3 of the AP buying equipment is not possible (potentially a problem, but nicely atmospheric), that the third part is something of a departure from the first two (not a problem if your group enjoy both social interaction and dungeon crawling), and that the fourth and fifth are two 'trapped on another Plane' adventures back to back (which I'm actually looking forward to).
But all that is, IMO, secondary to the fact that it's an extremely atmospheric, well-plotted, campaign. And one that does not set up the PCs with false expectations of what, in general, they're likely to encounter and/or have to deal with. It's debatably railroad-y, but not actually in any ways that prohibit the PCs from doing things in their own way or feel forced into a particular course of action.
I am running it right now, and the players are quite enjoying themselves (of course we're only halfway through the first book, but it's still really good).
And at least according to this thread, the average rating of LoF is about four out of seven, with many people feeling it warrants third, or even second (and a fair number putting it 5th, to be fair).
Well, of the three, LoF was the one I was leaning towards most strongly, especially because it seems like it would depart from the classic medieval European fantasy setting (I loved the exoticism in Serpent's Skull).
First off I think Legacy of Fire is great overall. It brings in a lot of things that do not happen in many games and is fun for a lot of players. If you HATE dungeons... then maybe not because they do have those... mixed in with travel as well.
The other thing to keep in mind is Second Darkness often goes on sale on Black Friday at Paizo where you can get all of the books in a bundle for a pretty good price. (It did the last two years anyway.) That is how I picked it up...so I would suggest checking that out in a few of months if you can be patient.
I have no real knowledge on Council of Thieves myself so cannot comment either way other then to say it was written for PFRPG and the other two were not so the conversion will not be needed. (Not that converting the older AP is that hard at all.)
I think they are well worth getting.
Legacy of Fire is awesome, straight up.
Even though I would place Council of Thieves near the bottom of my ranking of adventure paths, that's at the bottom of a list of Paizo Adventure Paths, which I would place above almost any other adventure collection out there. Council of Thieves has several great adventures in it.
I can't speak as much to Second Darkness, as I'm playing in that AP and have not read any of the adventure portions. Halfway through it our group has enjoyed it. I'm certainly looking forward to going back and reading them all once we've finished the path.
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I completed Second darkness as a player, then read the AP after we were done. I truely believe that a novice DM would find it very difficult to run that AP well. Notice I said Well. The trip to city of the drow has got to be the hardest part of that adventure if you have stupid players. If you like realism in your campaigns, it is a TPK waiting to happen for the stupid players.
With that said, the first three books of Second darknes were fantastic. I loved the entire AP, but then again, I had a real good dm running us through it.
As for LoF, I am currently DMing that one and we are on House of the Beast right now. It is my personal favorite of them all, but then again, I do like the swashbuckling arabian setting very much, so it appeals to me more than the average person.
I can say that my group absolutely loved the end of Howl, where they liberated Kelmarane in such style, that they told me that if felt like they were in an old vietnam movie sneaking into the POW camp and taking out the sentries one by one.
then they ran into Kazurkian the demon, and they shat their pants... :D
Council of Thieves I have not read or participated in as that is our next campaign set to start after LoF, so I have nothing to say on that one.
Hope you get them all though, for I have not seen a bad one yet.
CC
Second Darkness was our first attempt at Pathfinder and we made it to lvl 8 to the Drow city bit the dm lost interest at that point. It may have actually been because he was a little bit novice and the city may have caused issues for him.
I /loved/ the first part of this adventure and would happily do it again as the start of a game with No connection to the rest of the Ap. I wanted to do stuff with the Casino.
The other bits up to lvl 8 were straightforward and aside from not supporting my dreams of becoming a riddleport crime lord :P
Anyhow I got the impression that there is alot of historical thematic stuff in the AP and i think for that alone it is probably worth doing as a way to introduce players to a major event in golarions history. I personally have no issues with he level of railroading int he module.
Legacy of Fire is amazing and I will sing its praises whereever I can. Get it. Get all of it. It's great.
Second Darkness is not a great or coherent AP, but, the first two books, taken together (and then not continuing further), make for a great minicampaign. I would definately recommend these. And I have to disagree with Aubrey above: I think the 1st book is the strongest thing Greg has put out.
Council of Theives, I have not read or played (but hope to some day). I've heard the 2nd book, as a standalone mod, is the single best thing Paizo has ever produced. I have heard the rest of the path is lackluster however.
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And I have to disagree with Aubrey above: I think the 1st book is the strongest thing Greg has put out.
I don't wish to derail, but...
I much prefer Greg's work when he is designing dungeons - set-piece locations. I felt part 1 of SD was a generic town thing that had been better done, in Paizo APs, by other authors. In particular, it felt to me to be very similar to Nick Logue's opening for Curse of the Crimson Throne, which (I think) was in the previous AP. So for me it felt a bit stale. And I certainly don't think it compares to Scarwall or the standalone Baba Yaga adventure he did (can't remember the name off-hand) and some of his stuff in late Dungeon magazine is also very inventive. Riddleport to me was... Meh. But it's all down to personal taste in the end.
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And I have to disagree with Aubrey above: I think the 1st book is the strongest thing Greg has put out.I don't wish to derail, but...
I much prefer Greg's work when he is designing dungeons - set-piece locations. I felt part 1 of SD was a generic town thing that had been better done, in Paizo APs, by other authors. In particular, it felt to me to be very similar to Nick Logue's opening for Curse of the Crimson Throne, which (I think) was in the previous AP. So for me it felt a bit stale. And I certainly don't think it compares to Scarwall or the standalone Baba Yaga adventure he did (can't remember the name off-hand) and some of his stuff in late Dungeon magazine is also very inventive. Riddleport to me was... Meh. But it's all down to personal taste in the end.
Not to derail any further, but I found SD's opening in riddleport better done than Logue's in Curse.
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LoF: DMed this one. The problem I hade was the players. They wanted to make characters that did not fit the theam of the AP. Other then that there is the part where from books 4-6 they can't sell or trade items so as a DM you need to place items they can use in the AP. Or when they get to book 6 it will be a short fight.
SD: Only read this one. Over all not somthing I wanted to run after reading the AP guide in the back of the first book.
CoT: I loved this AP as a player. There are alot of people that did not like it. Personly I loved the feal of the AP as a hole. With in the first two books the group hade started a tavern. Made tunnels and started working with the bell flower net work. Then the Bard(aka: Barninja) set up a information broker house in the bar. The Witch(miss fire is a good thing. BTW:Caulrden Hex +Master Alchemist +Poisoner Rogue =nasty) in the group started there owne alchemy shop. And a few others started seting down roots in the city. Now the AP with out the seting down roots in west crown dose not flow as well. But it's not required of the PC.
I'm currently running Second Darkness, and my group is having a great time. There are several caveats, though.
First, the first book is sort of a bait-and-switch. The players start out thinking they're going to be playing politics and running a casino in a pirate town; then they suddenly leave the town at the beginning of the second book and never return to it again. I would advise my players before beginning that they will be leaving Riddleport.
Second, both books 1 and 4 (in the drow city) are very open, and the plot advances behind the curtain while the PCs are just marking time. Players get very antsy when they feel like they're not making any progress on the plot and are more likely to do something reckless out of desperation. Also, both are set in a wide-open town/city for the players to range through; if you want to convince the players that what they're doing is more than just waiting for the timer to tick down until an NPC drops information in their lap, you have to be prepared to make things up on the fly as they interact with the community.
Third, book 5 needs a lot of work. I've long been a defender of SD, even book 5, after my first read-through, but coming back to book 5 getting ready to actually run that part, I've realized that while the storyline is interesting, the actual mechanics for running the PCs through it are awful, amounting to random fights against faceless mooks and long cut-scenes where they watch NPCs talk. I'm reworking it heavily.
One thing I did notice, when running the game, is that books 1-3 make a fantastic mini-campaign. Book 2 is one of the best adventures ever, imo, and book 3 ends with a big boss fight and a banquet to celebrate and reward the PCs that make a terrific ending. And after that, your PCs are still low-level enough and haven't been away too long to return triumphantly to Riddleport, reclaim their casino, and set some crime lords straight if that's what they want to do. If the whole draw for my group hadn't been reliving the Baldur's Gate experience of infiltrating a drow city disguised as drow, I would seriously have considered ending it right there.
Another caveat that applies to all APs: Read the whole thing before you start running it. APs are usually written by 6 different authors and have hard disconnects between the books instead of flowing organicially. If you know what's coming up, you can start foreshadowing some later developments and NPCs and make the whole thing fit together much more naturally.
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LoF: DMed this one. The problem I hade was the players. They wanted to make characters that did not fit the theam of the AP. Other then that there is the part where from books 4-6 they can't sell or trade items so as a DM you need to place items they can use in the AP. Or when they get to book 6 it will be a short fight.
I am in the process of rectifying this situation with my campaign. Although it requires quite a bit of work for the DM, it gives the PC's a chance to craft in both the prison plane, and in the city of brass.
Of course, it is based off character story lines, which many come to peaks in those two AP's (end of eternity and impossible eye).
But to sum it up quickly, I actually played out the first three levels in Solku and the trip up to the Sultans Claw, having them level 4 before they ever set foot in the monastery.
I used both of the egyptian themed modules in between Howl and House of the beast (actually combining them in one pyramid) for one character's story line, having the PC's at level 9 before starting House of the Beast.
With how things will go in Jackals Price, they will have the time to craft prior to going into the prison plane (they will be level 13 by then), then the fun will begin in the prison plane with two chances to craft depending on what the PC's do. Nothing will be more cool than to see the PC's face when they can craft a magic item in one of the mystical forges on the plane of fire.
It just kind of turns to crap near the end.
I've noticed this about quite a few of the APs. I've never been a fan of high-level play so I know I may be biased in this regard, but... is it partially because high-level adventures are harder to pull off?
Anyway, assuming E5/E6 Pathfinder (so, pretty much only the first two or maybe three books of an AP), what are the best APs? Obviously ones that come to some sort of mid-AP resolution are a big boost. Second Darkness seems to really shine in this regard, for instance.
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It just kind of turns to crap near the end.I've noticed this about quite a few of the APs. I've never been a fan of high-level play so I know I may be biased in this regard, but... is it partially because high-level adventures are harder to pull off?
Anyway, assuming E5/E6 Pathfinder (so, pretty much only the first two or maybe three books of an AP), what are the best APs? Obviously ones that come to some sort of mid-AP resolution are a big boost. Second Darkness seems to really shine in this regard, for instance.
It hase more to do with few players ever spending alot of time at high level play. Most encounters involve save or suck spells and a few deaths. Or near deaths. Thee is little room for mistakes at this level play. Players that did not spend alot of time making characters will notics this starting around level 12. By level 15 it will be nearly imposable to keap them alive and need a breath of live every encounter. And at level 18+ unless you have used a defined path to power. Lets just say it's all the breaths of life to keap you up is going to get old.
The main problem players have.
1: AC past level 10. Any character with a good AC past level 10. Will find them selfs in a world of hurt. Why? In order to have a AC that maters at this level you have to focus on it. That means a great reduction in damage. This plays a big part in why damage is king. At lower levels you can do both damage and AC. It's not a problem. As you level you are forced to pick AC feats or Damage feats? Most people don't see this problem untill it's to late.
2: Save DC Past level 10. Any one that hase played a caster up to level 10 can tell you. Your ability to incresses you spell DC is limited. There ability to incresses saving throws is not. If you did not max out your Spell DC and Spell Penatration. You will see a drastic drop in the number of spells that work on most monsters.
3: The ability to make a characters. Most players make characters they feal will be fun to play. However with high level play in mind you have to think of what will be effective first then fun after. The second part is most groups don't think group make up will mater. This is true at low and mid level play. Not past level 10 groups with out the raw damage have real problems. There are ways around it but that requires planing. Lack of group making characters to work well with each other will end most high level games.
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Anyway, assuming E5/E6 Pathfinder (so, pretty much only the first two or maybe three books of an AP), what are the best APs? Obviously ones that come to some sort of mid-AP resolution are a big boost. Second Darkness seems to really shine in this regard, for instance.
LoF has a pretty good end point after Book 2 (the defeat of the Carrion King) with only minimal changes to make following up on the remaining plot threads unneeded.
Personally, I thought the first and second Second Darkenss adventures were golden. The plot was good,, the double-cross was GREAT, the Golden Goblin was interesting, and the open island and the summer-blockbuster action bits went over great with my group.
It just kind of turns to crap near the end.
I LOVED the first two books of Second Darkness. I wish I had basically just homebrewed the characters stay in riddle port and did stuff with the crime bosses and go all gangs of new york instead of follow the AP. My problem was
Personally, I thought the first and second Second Darkenss adventures were golden. The plot was good,, the double-cross was GREAT, the Golden Goblin was interesting, and the open island and the summer-blockbuster action bits went over great with my group.
It just kind of turns to crap near the end.
I LOVED the first two books of Second Darkness. I wish I had basically just homebrewed the characters stay in riddle port and did stuff with the crime bosses and go all gangs of new york instead of follow the AP. My problem was ** spoiler omitted **
I felt the same way. I'm using SD as a starting off point for my online game, but the players are in a much more Sandboxy adventure that will end with a Final Boss at the end of Armageddon Echo. From there, the campaign will go elsewhere.
And even then, the characters are only periferally involved in the SITS scenario right now. The Golden Goblin is just one of the encounter areas...they are following a different set of clues that will lead them to the significance of the Shadow in the Sky....
I'm currently running LoF and everyone's having a good time with it.
I think the success and failure of this depends a lot on your players and how they take the theme. If making characters that fit the setting sounds like fun to your players, they'll probably have a good time with it. If they're wanting to play thri-kreen samurai, it's probably going to fall flat.
Second Darkness falls apart after the first two modules, but there are plenty of complex stat blocks to nick for viable games. Those first two modules, however, provide decent set-pieces for many campaigns: running a casino and an investigation of a supernatural event. Second Darkness in its third module gets on the choo-choo train big time, assuming that the PCs are going to assume that the drow are stupidly not leaving a rear guard and jump into an unknown plane after 4-5 very tough encounters, when a viable option is just to wait for them to come out. The hook is that you're supposed to want to rescue two unpleasant NPCs that they've got with them. Then it gets stupid complex in the fourth module, where the final area features a half dozen depressed NPCs who won't interact with the party as written, then features a final battle with a six or so high level spell casters + spell-casting monsters plus the party plus 12+ mooks. And then it gets unusable, requiring way, way, way too much DM work to make the last two modules viable. Buy the first two, unless you buy APs for stat blocks, in which case, there's plenty of complex ones.
Council of Thieves has a stellar second module with a fully written play included and a pretty good nuclear reactor scenario in a later module. The problem with that AP is that it's set in Cheliax and, well, doesn't feature the Hell Knights, the Infernal Bureaucracy or the Church of Asmodeus as main antagonists, which any reasonable player would assume upon introduction to the series. The title gives away the main antagonists, btw. Buy the second module for the play.
Legacy of Fire has an excellent first three episodes, and the first two are outstanding, but it has one too many dungeon plane-crawling for my taste. This is the best path of the three. I'd buy them all.
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What roguerogue says.
Also, SD is crippled by a major disconnect between the first two adventures and the rest of the AP - you kick off as employees of a shady gambling hall, implicating a more "scoundrel" feel to the AP, and halfway around you are supposed to become an altruistic savior of the elven nation, thanklessly doing the hard work for them. Also, to rub salt into wounds, your benefactors pretty much screw you over at one point. I know that if I ran SD as written, my group would quit the main plot at Memory of Darkness. Worst. Module. Ever.
Council of Thieves is more of a missed opportunity and misplaced expectations thing. When the AP was announced, everybody was hoping for an urban guerilla warfare campaign about fighting the evil Chelaxian regime, devils, HKs, inquisitors, freedom the the people and all that kind of stuff. Instead we got a rather sad tussle with some bland thieves guild. Color me not impressed.
LoF is cool, as long as arabian nights and extraplnar journeys gel with you. If they do, you will love it. Also, PUGWAMPIS.
What roguerogue says.
Also, SD is crippled by a major disconnect between the first two adventures and the rest of the AP - you kick off as employees of a shady gambling hall, implicating a more "scoundrel" feel to the AP, and halfway around you are supposed to become an altruistic savior of the elven nation, thanklessly doing the hard work for them. Also, to rub salt into wounds, your benefactors pretty much screw you over at one point. I know that if I ran SD as written, my group would quit the main plot at Memory of Darkness. Worst. Module. Ever.
Council of Thieves is more of a missed opportunity and misplaced expectations thing. When the AP was announced, everybody was hoping for an urban guerilla warfare campaign about fighting the evil Chelaxian regime, devils, HKs, inquisitors, freedom the the people and all that kind of stuff. Instead we got a rather sad tussle with some bland thieves guild. Color me not impressed.
LoF is cool, as long as arabian nights and extraplnar journeys gel with you. If they do, you will love it. Also, PUGWAMPIS.
Yea that was my players and kind of my problem with second darkness. They kind of set you up to be morally ambiguous and then basically drop you into the role of savior for an entire race that constantly is a jerk to you and treats you like crap.
Also pugwampis are awesome!
The City of Brass angle is a bit of a damp squib
I think you mean "damp squid".
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...SD is crippled by a major disconnect between the first two adventures and the rest of the AP - you kick off as employees of a shady gambling hall, implicating a more "scoundrel" feel to the AP, and halfway around you are supposed to become an altruistic savior of the elven nation, thanklessly doing the hard work for them. Also, to rub salt into wounds, your benefactors pretty much screw you over at one point. I know that if I ran SD as written, my group would quit the main plot at Memory of Darkness. Worst. Module. Ever.
Gorbacz hits the problems on the head, however; I cannot agree that it is the worst ever module. Yes, it feels like several separate attempts at the same adventure path were mashed together and that is squarely the fault of the editorial staff, but the individual attempts were great. As James Jacobs has said, putting so much emphasis on the Gold Goblin was a huge mistake. When running it, I made sure to play up the suspicious nature and activities of the employees and owner to keep the players off balanced. It left the players wanting to burn down the casino and leave town, if only for a small while. Don't let your players enjoy the casino so much they don't want to leave it.
The second book is also a great story that does drive the story arc along and leaves the players feeling like there is something to pursue. Book three holds up well until they step into the way back machine. a vision/dream scene is much easier and leaves you room to expand upon the running battle and gives your hack and slash players free rein to go nuts. Book four is where I plan to go sandboxy and let my players bask in the glow of faerie fire (mostly CN party that I want to lull into initially thinking they have reached the promised land and slowly let the true horror creep up on them until they are running scared, and possibly CG, all the way back to their benevolent elven overlords). Fifth and sixth books seem tedious, but we'll see. All in all, worth having if you want great ideas for several different campaigns.
Council of Thieves is more of a missed opportunity and misplaced expectations thing. When the AP was announced, everybody was hoping for an urban guerilla warfare campaign about fighting the evil Chelaxian regime, devils, HKs, inquisitors, freedom the the people and all that kind of stuff. Instead we got a rather sad tussle with some bland thieves guild. Color me not impressed.
I have come to realize that I must be the only one not hoping to have a character making placards that read "I support disestablishmentarianism" with this AP. I was hoping that they were serious about spotlighting and showcasing Cheliax by letting the characters be involved in the moving and shaking in the political world of a LE kingdom. The cherry on top of this contradictary story was putting in an hellknight prestige class for those players that just have to play a LG/LN/LE character in what is an overwhelmingly CG storyline. Major disappointment here for this poster. Additionally, putting the emphasis on tieflings here because now it is devil ridden, but nothing about aasimars because for centuries it was the most blessed land of Aroden made no sense to me.
LoF is cool, as long as arabian nights and extraplnar journeys gel with you. If they do, you will love it. Also, PUGWAMPIS.
Having been a player in this AP, I must say that I hate pugwampis so very very much.