I think that there's a lot of potential for the Repose domain's Gentle Rest ability to be abused. Some of these might require controversial stuff like using the Quicken SLA feat with Cleric domain powers, but others are fairly straightforward like just having multiple Clerics gang up (imagine if everybody in the party took a level of Cleric). Either way it effectively ends up putting stuff to sleep with no saving throw and no HD limit (that's why I feel like it could become an "abuse")
I could possibly dissuade the PCs from going sleep attack crazy by threatening that "Clerical Death Squads" will come take vengeance on the PCs for using their favored tactic. That would be unfair and not very nice, so I think it might make more sense to just issue a house rule. I'm not sure what, if any, ruling would be fair though. Some ideas I've had include.
#1 - Gentle Rest doesn't stack with itself - Identical effects don't generally stack, so you'd have to find some other way to stagger the foe first to put him to sleep with Gentle Rest (Staggering Critical and a Monk's ability to stagger foes with Stunning Fist would work since they're different effects from Gentle Rest)
#2 - Once you use Gentle Rest on a creature that creature is immune to your Gentle Rest for 24 hours - This resembles the fey domain's power. It would stop solo Clerics from using the sleep trick with Quicken SLA or hero points, but it probably wouldn't stop the Clerical Death Squad
#3 - Creatures with more HD than your cleric level can't be put to sleep by Gentle Rest - This would let the Cleric(s) suppress full attacks from big bads but not just auto slaughter them
#4 - Creatures with more HD than your cleric level can't be affected by Gentle Rest at all - This seems a little too harsh to me since it means that you're likely to step up, fail to stagger the enemy due to HD, and get clobbered. Dazing Touch from the Charm domain has this problem, but dazed is a lot nastier than staggered (excepting the weird stacking thing)
#5 - Just delete the bit about putting stuff to sleep - This seems like a bigger change than what's really "needed"
Come to think of it, I suppose that option #1 has some chance of being a real rule instead of a house rule. Unless somebody has a better idea or can talk me out of it I think I'm likely to issue that ruling to the group in an upcoming email. I'm not sure if I can "prove" it is a "correct" ruling, but I can't see a lot of proof that it is an incorrect ruling either (I'm sure some of you will of course, and that's part of what makes the boards interesting)
Come to think of it, I suppose that option #1 has some chance of being a real rule instead of a house rule.
Nope. Gentle Rest is not an ongoing effect, it's an instantaneous effect that causes a condition. When the second cleric uses Gentle Rest, the opponent does not have "Gentle Rest" on him, he's simply an enemy who is staggered.
If you have players who are likely to abuse this power, a houseruling is certainly appropriate. I've never had a problem with it in any games I've played, but that's probably because no one really knows about it and without a party built around it it's not deadly.
point being, the game is full of no save touch effects. You should then nerf all of them.
I think you might be overestimating the power of the ability.
There are several limits on its efficacy:
1) Spell-like Abilities provoke attacks of opportunity. Its a very easy rule to overlook, but this means that a Cleric using this ability has to risk getting smacked or make a concentration check and lose his action.
2) Its got a relatively low number of uses per day, 6-7 uses at low levels, up to maybe 10-12 by the time you can can get Quicken SLA. It takes two daily uses to put someone to sleep, and even then it only lasts for 1 round. Thats only 3-6 rounds of sleeping one opponent per day.
3) Sleep is also probably the easiest condition to break as any opponent can break the sleep with a standard action. And considering it took you two actions to put the person to sleep, thats really hurting your action economy.
4) I assume you want to set the opponent up for a Coup de Grace while sleeping. Depending on initiative order he might get woken up by another enemy before one of your allies can deliver the coup de grace. Also, remember that coup de grace is a full round action, so the killer has to be within a five-foot step in order to make the coup de grace. Also, the coup de grace provokes an AoO just like the SLA does.
5) If you miss one of the two needed touch attacks or blow a concentration check, you've only staggered your opponent for the round (Not that staggered isn't a pretty good condition to put on someone) so your carefully orchestrated coup de grace is wasted.
In order to kill opponents using this power you need three characters at lower levels, or two at level 10+ (assuming you are allowed to take quicken SLA). At least one of these characters needs to be within a five foot step of the target at the start of the round, and all of these characters will be at some point need to be adjacent to the opponent and taking actions that provoke attacks of opportunity.
So in the end that means three characters spending their full rounds to kill one opponent. Unless you are fighting single or perhaps paired opponents, this tactic isn't really that effective. Certainly not enough that it needs houseruling, unless I have missed something?
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point being, the game is full of no save touch effects. You should then nerf all of them.
Yeah, pretty much...enter touch of evil from the evil domain. He touches you and you become sickened and are counted as good for the purposes of smite good. That's how my players killed kyuss in AoW. The cleric did this to him and the anti-paladin did a full attack...wham, no more kyuss.
I think you might be overestimating the power of the ability.
There are several limits on its efficacy:
1) Spell-like Abilities provoke attacks of opportunity. Its a very easy rule to overlook, but this means that a Cleric using this ability has to risk getting smacked or make a concentration check and lose his action.
To my knowledge, just like a normal touch spell, a touch (sp) allows you to "cast" before you're 5 feet next to the guy, avoiding the AoO. Also, the quickened one won't provoke due to being quickened. Not that it matters much, because casting defensively is so easy with what must be an equivalent level 1 spell like (given that you get it at level 1).
2) Its got a relatively low number of uses per day, 6-7 uses at low levels, up to maybe 10-12 by the time you can can get Quicken SLA. It takes two daily uses to put someone to sleep, and even then it only lasts for 1 round. Thats only 3-6 rounds of sleeping one opponent per day.
All you need is one round on a given enemy. The person who moves after you in initiative can coup de grace. They could even delay to wait for you to sleep the enemy, that way they definitely go right after you. No HD limit, no will save, and the enemy is helpless and ready to be offed by the next person in initiative.
3) Sleep is also probably the easiest condition to break as any opponent can break the sleep with a standard action. And considering it took you two actions to put the person to sleep, thats really hurting your action economy.
They won't get a chance, since you'll wait to use the ability until you have someone ready to coup de grace.
4) I assume you want to set the opponent up for a Coup de Grace while sleeping. Depending on initiative order he might get woken up by another enemy before one of your allies can deliver the coup de grace. Also, remember that coup de grace is a full round action, so the killer has to be within a five-foot step in order to make the coup de grace. Also, the coup de grace provokes an AoO just like the SLA does.
The coup de gracer can use a reach weapon, or for maximum range can use a scorpion whip two-handed to coup de grace from a starting position 20 feet away. At level 1 with 20 STR and power attack, a character could coup de grace for 2D4+20 with the whip, as it can optionally be held in two hands. 2D4+26 if it's a barbarian. That DC 32 or higher is still an outright death for enemies who don't roll a 20 on their save, even several levels higher.
The other issues I have already addressed, as you'd ensure the initiative order with a delay and you'd avoid the SLA AoOs by defensively casting or casting before moving next to the enemy.
5) If you miss one of the two needed touch attacks or blow a concentration check, you've only staggered your opponent for the round (Not that staggered isn't a pretty good condition to put on someone) so your carefully orchestrated coup de grace is wasted.
Staggered is not bad for use against a monster with lots of attacks or against a high-level martial NPC, as it reduces the enemy to a single attack.
Half-elf clerics will have the easiest go of this, as they can simply take arcane training as an alternate racial feature and use a wand or scroll of true strike before the big battle, essentially making it impossible to defend against the sleep effect.
To my knowledge, just like a normal touch spell, a touch (sp) allows you to "cast" before you're 5 feet next to the guy, avoiding the AoO. Also, the quickened one won't provoke due to being quickened. Not that it matters much, because casting defensively is so easy with what must be an equivalent level 1 spell like (given that you get it at level 1).
Yep, you can take the 5 foot step with a SLA. But again, this means you have to start at 5 foot stepping range, or move and cast defensively. Also, DC 17 isn't a trivial check at low levels. Its not immense or anything either, but its still a ~40% fail rate at first level.
All you need is one round on a given enemy. The person who moves after you in initiative can coup de grace. They could even delay to wait for you to sleep the enemy, that way they definitely go right after you. No HD limit, no will save, and the enemy is helpless and ready to be offed by the next person in initiative.
Depending on the vagaries of the initiative dice rolls you might not have an ally who can delay until after your action, or you might end up all having to delay until the end of the round. That might be in your best interest in this case anyway though, considering you want things close to you without having to take actions with this tactic.
They won't get a chance, since you'll wait to use the ability until you have someone ready to coup de grace.
Again, making this positional. If you have to spend round 1 setting up three characters to land a combo on round 2, I'm really not that bothered by the power. 3 PCs focusing on one opponent for 2 rounds would kill most threats anyway.
The coup de gracer can use a reach weapon, or for maximum range can use a scorpion whip two-handed to coup de grace from a starting position 20 feet away. At level 1 with 20 STR and power attack, a character could coup de grace for 2D4+20 with the whip, as it can optionally be held in two hands. 2D4+26 if it's a barbarian. That DC 32 or higher is still an outright death for enemies who don't roll a 20 on their save, even several levels higher.
Not disagreeing with you here. If the coup de grace lands, it is always going to be devastating. What I think your example does point out is that to maximize the usefulness of this combo you need a third character purpose built to take advantage of this domain ability.
Half-elf clerics will have the easiest go of this, as they can simply take arcane training as an alternate racial feature and use a wand or scroll of true strike before the big battle, essentially making it impossible to defend against the sleep effect.
Truestrike has to be used before the end of your next combat round, so you are either gonna have to do this in combat, or get your positioning absolutely perfect the round after you knock in the door. Course wasting a scroll of truestrike every now and again won't break the bank either.
Also, a big thing I forgot to mention in the previous post: flying creatures. Admittedly only an issue up until a certain level threshold, but before 5th at least, and probably more like 7th or 8th, they will completely shut down your sleep touch attack plan.
Your actual real biggest problem is the humble 5-foot wide hallway. Only way I see of making it work there is to start with one 'toucher' adjacent to an opponent, touch, move action away, second toucher has to move action/5 foot step in, touch, and then you have to have a reach weapon equipped person deliver the coup de grace.
Also, it isn't going to break a campaign. Here is a list of the races/types/subtypes immune to sleep: elves, half-elves, constructs, dragons, elementals, inevitables, oozes, plants, undead, and swarms. SR is going to add an extra level of protection for almost all devils, daemons, demons, and other big hostile outsiders.
First off, I totally forgot that the players and I were already talking about house ruling coup de grace to be just an auto crit with a card (we use a crit deck). I proposed that rule to make ghouls a little less randomly deadly, but if the players go for it then it will solve this "sleep trick" too. Gentle Repose would still be a very good power IMO since it can suppress full attacks without any saving throw.
Omelite has already made many of the replies which I might have, only probably more eloquently. One thing I'll add is that while SR might help out a bit at higher levels outsiders in my game can't rely on SR against the human Cleric since the favored class ability from the APG is in play (+1 caster level per cleric level to beat outsider SR).
Some of the positioning arguments are interesting too, but with hero points in play it can really be as simple as walking up to the BBEG, touching him twice, and having your friend finish him off. This could be especially problematic if you allow Heroic Fortune, a 2nd level spell which grants a temporary hero point. The spell is likely overpowered all on its own though, at least when combined with option of spending a hero point to get an extra standard action. It isn't as bad as White Raven Tactics from 3.5, but it still seems like a bit much to me.
Here is a list of the races/types/subtypes immune to sleep: elves, half-elves, constructs, dragons, elementals, inevitables, oozes, plants, undead, and swarms.
This is probably the biggest mitigating factor, but I kind of dislike the way stuff like this can pigeonhole the DM into using or not using certain kinds of monsters. I saw more than one 3.5 DM slowly get frustrated and reach the point where he was throwing almost nothing but golems and undead at the PCs level after level. I don't want to be that guy. I didn't remember that plants were still immune to sleep though, and that could help A LOT in my current campaign.
Still, the fact that some monsters are immune to a tactic doesn't convince me that the tactic isn't abusive. I mean, let's say there were a power called H-Bomb which does 10d6 fire damage per level with SR but no save. The DM could still run devils, red dragons, and fire elementals without any trouble. He could probably even run some half-dragons and various sorts of constructs. Demons, monks, and drow might avoid the spell with SR half the time. I can imagine that some people would argue it isn't really a broken power since there are dozens or possibly hundreds of monsters which aren't easily destroyed by it.
Heck, trim that down to 5d6 per level and it begins to remind me of Fast Bombs, but that's a subject for another thread...
Some of the positioning arguments are interesting too, but with hero points in play it can really be as simple as walking up to the BBEG, touching him twice, and having your friend finish him off. This could be especially problematic if you allow Heroic Fortune, a 2nd level spell which grants a temporary hero point. The spell is likely overpowered all on its own though, at least when combined with option of spending a hero point to get an extra standard action. It isn't as bad as White Raven Tactics from 3.5, but it still seems like a bit much to me.
Using a SLA counts as your 1 spell cast per round unless you use Quicken SLA, so you can't use hero points to get 2 touches in one round anyway.
Using a SLA counts as your 1 spell cast per round unless you use Quicken SLA, so you can't use hero points to get 2 touches in one round anyway.
I must have missed the "1 spell per round" rule. That fixes most of the other hero point abuse I was worried about too. Thanks for pointing that out. I was able to find it under the section for "Cast a Quickened Spell" once I knew to look.
I still think the power is a little over the top, but it seems less likely to get completely out of hand now. I guess it is the DM's job to step in and rain on a player's parade when things get out of hand, but I'd rather rain on him with rules so I can blame an impersonal power like rulebook.
The last DM would just do stuff like have monsters fail save or die saves and not die. I'm not saying that's "wrong", just that I could imagine the player getting frustrated if we're always countering his latest ubertactic purely with DM fiat. I want to be "fair", after all.