| HappyDaze |
My group of 5 3rd level PCs have a pack of four riding dogs that are trained as hunting dogs (they are not also trained to be ridden). These are each a CR 1 creature, and at these low levels, the dogs seem to make some encounters too easy. I know that they have restrictions on what they can attack (per the Attack trick under Handle Animal) and that they take a move action to send into battle (ruled to be one move action to give the entire pack a shared target), but when animals and humanoids are fairly common opposition, they still contribute a bit too much to just factor in as equipment.
Should the dogs reduce the xp awards given to the party? Do they just subtract their xp value (1,600 xp) from the total of encounters that they participate in? Do they increase the APL?
Maxximilius
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The "powerful strategy/character" is always the perfect target for The Worf. Big Large or Huge BEG comes, takes a dog or two in his hands, and sends it flying on you with a dramatic effect. Girallon is fun for this. Four arms, four dogs, bull's strength or raging creature, grappling, throwing, PROFIT !
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/magical-beasts/girallon
Make the wolfs, the worfs !
Your party will remember this all their life.
The Worf (c): for all your drama needs.
(Or, like said before, just throw large things and make your ennemies hit the punny little dogs that bite them. Right now, the dogs are powerful weapons but taking them back brutally would only frustrate your players. I suggest to put more monsters into play so that you always have a menace to them. Maybe make only one dog survive and become a regular companion for character development, either as a simple dog not entering fight anymore - except for dramatic fight - or a kind of animal companion to the group following the same rules than a ranger's ?)
| Lurk3r |
From the GM side: Yes, you should increase the APL. Not by much, though. since these doggies are 2 levels lower than the party. They are, however, extra bodies with attacks and damage which contribute to the fight. Similar to how a character with a cohort should really count as two for the purposes of APL (I know that isn't in the rules, but it works out that way).
From the player side: How did they get the doggies? If they are from someone's class ability, no work necessary. If they were purchased, then you should let the player keep them, but impress upon them the effort necessary in keeping pets: "now son, you're going to have to feed it yourself..." If said player doesn't put any more effort into the dogs than a one time purchase, then they should eventually fade into the adventure background just like a masterwork sword does when the +1 sword comes along. However, if your player is actively working on making hound-mastery the core of his/ her build, you shouldn't punish the player for that. Maybe have them take the Leadership feat and keep the doggies as a sort of joint cohort (which will level up) or keep them as they are and give them the advanced template if the player works hard enough on them. I would not subtract their experience from the party's, as this will just make everyone feel cheated, especially if the dogs stay at level 1 after eating up the exp.
| HappyDaze |
The dogs were purchased and are a part of the character's WBL (about 10% each of two characters). The dogs stay in the fight longer than you might think since the cleric's channeling heals them up quite nicely at the same time it's healing up the PCs. Once combat is joined, they contribute near constant flanking bonuses to the PCs as well as acting as speed bumps to prevent enemies from charging the squishy character at the beginning of an encounter - and this is with playing their animal intelligence.
Howie23
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My group of 5 3rd level PCs have a pack of four riding dogs that are trained as hunting dogs (they are not also trained to be ridden). These are each a CR 1 creature, and at these low levels, the dogs seem to make some encounters too easy. I know that they have restrictions on what they can attack (per the Attack trick under Handle Animal) and that they take a move action to send into battle (ruled to be one move action to give the entire pack a shared target), but when animals and humanoids are fairly common opposition, they still contribute a bit too much to just factor in as equipment.
The combat aspect of the game is largely geared on the action economy. Animals add actions available to the characters; as such they are valuable additions. That said, the Handle Animal skill is designed, in part, to reduce the transaction value.
Currently, you've ruled that a single move action commands the entire pack into battle. In other words, one move action is traded for the full round equivalent actions for four creatures, both in the first round and for the rest of combat, or until the target creature dies, at which point this resets. You've made the cost in terms of action economy very low. Per RAW, it is a move action to get an animal to attack a specific foe. I would strongly suggest returning this aspect to the action economy. It's one thing when a single PC spends a move action to gain 4 move/standard sets. It's another when the PCs have to spend 4 move actions. In addition, the Handle Animal check to have them attack is DC10 when trained to attack; restoring the move action per dog is going to place additional pressure on the skill ranks.
If you keep your current action economy for the animals, it seems like it is such a valuable tactic that enemies would use it as well. This would be particularly true in a campaign where the bad guys are learning about the capabilities of the PCs due to preliminary encounters. Either the baddies are gonna start getting dogs or start using anti-dog tactics (animals that dogs won't attack, summoning tactics, subverting the dogs via charm animal or other tactics, etc.)
Should the dogs reduce the xp awards given to the party? Do they just subtract their xp value (1,600 xp) from the total of encounters that they participate in? Do they increase the APL?
If the party is highly effective due to the dogs, then they effectively have a higher APL or should be able to face encounters of higher CR; the two terms are pretty much synonymous. If they're steamrolling encounters, give 'em tougher encounters to keep things challenging. Formally, the XP award for the PCs isn't changed any more than if they had spent their WbL on other equipment.
In a subsequent post, you've mentioned clerical channeling. If taking place during battle (or just after), remember that this will generally heal the bad guys, too.
| Some call me Tim |
I know that they have restrictions on what they can attack (per the Attack trick under Handle Animal) and that they take a move action to send into battle (ruled to be one move action to give the entire pack a shared target), but when animals and humanoids are fairly common opposition, they still contribute a bit too much to just factor in as equipment.
Well, there's your problem.
| Valandil Ancalime |
My group of 5 3rd level PCs have a pack of four riding dogs that are trained as hunting dogs (they are not also trained to be ridden). These are each a CR 1 creature, and at these low levels, the dogs seem to make some encounters too easy. I know that they have restrictions on what they can attack (per the Attack trick under Handle Animal) and that they take a move action to send into battle (ruled to be one move action to give the entire pack a shared target), but when animals and humanoids are fairly common opposition, they still contribute a bit too much to just factor in as equipment.
Should the dogs reduce the xp awards given to the party? Do they just subtract their xp value (1,600 xp) from the total of encounters that they participate in? Do they increase the APL?
WBL=3,000 gp at 3rd, you could have a wand of fireballs(and Im sure there are worse 3rd level spells out there) with 20+ charges, would it increase their APL? Would you reduce xp for it? How about for an intelligent sword? No, they are equipment. The dogs are equipment.
I wouldn't worry about it too much. They will start loosing dogs all the time (monsters will 1 shot them to death). Then the group will start wanting to use rope trick to rest or start using spells with a limited numbers of passengers (teleport, etc...) and the dogs will be left home.
Dogs are pack animals, 1 action to direct the pack seems reasonable to me.
| Shadowborn |
The dogs' Will saves aren't great. How about a druid with hold animal or a wizard with a fear spell? Or encounters with humanoids that use their own guard/attack animals.
Also, the dogs, when ordered to attack, should beeline to the target. It would be up to the PCs to use the tactic of circling around into a flanking position. That isn't something a trained dog would normally do. So in narrow areas, that would rule out flanking without PCs using Acrobatics to tumble through their opponents' squares.