Anger Inquisition and Rage sub-domain: point of effective barbarian level?

[Talon Stormwarden]

Both the Anger Inquisition out of Ultimate Magic and the Rage sub-domain from the APG give a value for your effective barbarian level (level - 3 for Anger, half cleric for Rage).

What is the point of this distinction?

The only level dependent factor of the Rage ability that I can see is number of rounds of rage available, and this is spelled out for both abilities (Wisdom bonus + 1/inquisitor level beyond 4th for Anger and 1 per cleric level for Rage).

Am I missing something pertinent?

Thanks

[Momar]

Talon Stormwarden wrote:

Both the Anger Inquisition out of Ultimate Magic and the Rage sub-domain from the APG give a value for your effective barbarian level (level - 3 for Anger, half cleric for Rage).

What is the point of this distinction?

The only level dependent factor of the Rage ability that I can see is number of rounds of rage available, and this is spelled out for both abilities (Wisdom bonus + 1/inquisitor level beyond 4th for Anger and 1 per cleric level for Rage).

Am I missing something pertinent?

Thanks

It allows you to qualify for rage powers that have a level req. In the case of anger inquisition you'd need rage powers from another source, probably barbarian levels, but you could then use the effective barbarian level increase to qualify for better rage powers later, obtainable through the extra rage power feat. The subdomain is a little bit trickier. It depends a little on how your dm rules it; if you're considered to have the rage class feature and the rage power feature you can again use EBL to take certain rage powers via the feat (note that the rage powers you get from the domain cannot have a level req), if you're not considered to have those features it doesn't do much unless you're DM rules that it stacks with barbarian levels.

[Quandary]

I`m pretty sure these `pseudo-Barbarian levels` count towards scaling Rage Powers like Rolling Dodge or Strength Surge (whose AC or skill/CMB bonus depend on your Barbarian Level).

Even though such abilities aren`t specifically mentioned, Rage Domain says `otherwise your barbarian level is equal to 1/2 your cleric level´ which would seem to include them (although it doesn`t actually say it STACKS with real Barb levels for other purposes, so while Cleric levels would advance these Powers, it`s not clear they stack with real Barb levels, e.g. you may just use the highest effective Barb level). Anger Inquisition does explicitly say `these levels stack when determining the effect of your rage`, and I would include the effect of Rage Powers within the effect of your Rage.

I`m not sure about 2 other issues for both Rage Domain and Anger Inquisition...

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On one hand, you could read intent of the Rage Domain to be excluding using your `pseudo-Barb levels` to qualify for minimum Barb Level Pre-Req powers, i.e. they are only useful for determining the effect of `scaling` rage powers. On the other hand, that limitation is an elaboration of the Rage Powers you select `for free` (as part of ability), so possibly the `pseudo-Barb levels` DO count for Barb Level Pre-Req powers selected via Feat or Barb levels???

The Anger Inquisition is also somewhat unclear... The Inquisition doesn`t grant any free Rage Powers in the first place, and also/thusly doesn`t have any language like the Domain does about not allowing/counting for Barbarian Level Pre-Req powers (which you would need to spend a Feat on Extra Rage Power or dip into Barbarian to actually gain a Rage Power). On the other hand, it actually only says the Inquisitor pseudo-Barb levels stack with real Barb levels `for determining the effect of your Rage`, i.e. STR/CON/Will and scaling Rage Powers, and doesn`t say it stacks for all purposes, i.e. Rage Power Pre-Reqs.

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Interestingly, unlike the Rage Domain, the Anger Inquisition says `If you have levels in barbarian, these levels stack when determining the effect of your rage.` Which I would interpret to mean increasing the STR/CON/Will Save Bonus... Those are usually gained thru `Greater/Mighty Rage`, technically a separate class ability, but that`s the only thing that makes sense... Those are how `the effects of Rage` change depending on Barbarian level, after all.

So by the lack of such a line, one could read the Rage Domain as NOT scaling those bonuses. Although the line `otherwise your barbarian level is equal to 1/2 your cleric level` COULD be interpreted as also doing that, the fact it avoided using clearer wording stating Rage Domain levels STACK for determining Rage strength (pointing out how things stack is STANDARD for how these type of abilities are written), makes me lean towards saying that by RAW, Rage Domain does not advance STR/CON/Will Save bonus (beyond that a Barb receives at Level 1).

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FAQ QUESTION: Do `pseudo Barbarian Levels` from Rage Domain / Anger Inquisition count towards Barbarian Level Pre-Reqs of Rage Powers (taken via Extra Rage Power Feat or by dipping in Barbarian class after levels of Cleric/Inquisitor)???

Does Anger Inquisition advance the STR/CON/Will Bonus of Rage?

Does Rage Domain advance the STR/CON/Will Bonus of Rage?

[Driver 325 yards]

Quote:

Divine Anger (Ex): At 6th level, you gain the ability to rage like a barbarian. Your effective barbarian level for this ability is your inquisitor level – 3. If you have levels in barbarian, these levels stack when determining the effect of your rage. You do not gain any rage powers from this granted power, though if you have rage powers from another class, you may use them with these rages. You can rage a number of rounds per day equal to your Wisdom bonus, plus 1 round for every inquisitor level above 4th.

Let me use my lawyering skills to analyze the text. The first three sentence are talking only about the rage ability gain through Divine Anger. The fourth sentence focuses only on how rage powers are affected. The last sentence determines the number of rds of rage.

From the first three sentence it is clear that one rages like a barbarian Inq -3 levels. The only thing this can possibly refer to is rage, improved rage, greater rage, tireless rage. After all, the only questions when it comes to rage is str/con/will/ac and whether you fatigue. We are done with rage.

Now lets look at rage powers from the fourth sentence. You gain no rage powers. Since you gain no rage powers, you can not take ERP as a feat to get rage powers, unless you have the rage power class feature from somewhere else. It clearly says, however, that you can use your rage powers with this rage. So, what determines you rage powers effectiveness? Your effective barbarian level determines them. So, whatever rage powers you have scale up in accordance with you effective barbarian level.

Seems pretty clear if the sentences are read in a straight forward manner. Take the sentences out of context and you have a problem.

[Driver 325 yards]

Quote:

Rage (Su): At 8th level, you can enter a fearsome rage, like a barbarian, for a number of rounds per day equal to your cleric level. At 12th and 16th level, you can select one rage power. You cannot select any rage power that possesses a level requirement, but otherwise your barbarian level is equal to 1/2 your cleric level. These rounds of rage stack with any rounds of rage you might have from levels of barbarian.

Now lets look at the rage subdomain. The first sentence talks about rds of rage. The second about rage powers you can select through this domain power. The third sentence simply puts limitations on the second sentence and gives you an effective barbarian level obtained from this power. The last sentence further explains the first sentence.

So add up your barbarian rage rds and the round from this power to get the total rds of rage. Your rage powers function like your effective barbarian level. Finally you rage like a barbarian of your effective level.

You almost have to start off assuming that they left something out to reach the conclusion that something was left out after reading it. Assume that all of your question were answered in what was written and the answer to the question of this post seems obvious

[Driver 325 yards]

Now here is the real question. What happens if you have a cleric that takes the anger inquistion and the rage subdomain.

One bad ... cleric happens. That is why everyone acts like the wording in the domain and inquistion is murky. It is not. It is just too good to be true.

At high enough levels, this cleric rages better than a barbarian. At least this is the case until there is an errata or a clarification that changes the wording.

[Quandary]

Driver 325 yards wrote:

From the first three sentence it is clear that one rages like a barbarian Inq -3 levels. The only thing this can possibly refer to is rage, improved rage, greater rage, tireless rage. After all, the only questions when it comes to rage is str/con/will/ac and whether you fatigue. We are done with rage.

Now lets look at rage powers from the fourth sentence. You gain no rage powers. Since you gain no rage powers, you can not take ERP as a feat to get rage powers, unless you have the rage power class feature from somewhere else. It clearly says, however, that you can use your rage powers with this rage. So, what determines you rage powers effectiveness? Your effective barbarian level determines them. So, whatever rage powers you have scale up in accordance with you effective barbarian level.

You're contradicting yourself here. That effective barb level could possibly apply to scaling rage powers AND/OR the increasing levels of rage (imp, greater, tireless?) is two distinct aspects of rage that could be affected... So the first claim I bolded ('the only thing this can possibly refer to...') is totally undermined.

The text is insufficient to make clear EITHER of the applications, albeit it doesn't make sense unless at LEAST one of them IS affected. But neither effective barb level for rage power effect is clearly stated NOR is it made clear that you should 'progress' the bonuses of Rage. Besides Imp, Greater Rage which just increase bonuses, Tireless Rage is a completely lateral ability, negating a downside. The RAW just isn't clear on this.

[Quandary]

re: Rage Domain, it is hardly as clear as you think.
The entire issue of whether Imp, Greater Rage are gained (increasing Rage bonuses), not to mention Tireless Rage, isn't clear... Those are all distinct abilities, that not every Barbarian has and thus are not a core part of 'raging like a barbarian rages'.
You cannot gain Barb Level Pre-Req Rage Powers thru this Domain, but 'otherwise' you gain an effective barb level.

Regardless, you are not going to out-Rage a full Barbarian by taking both Domain and Inquisition:
you will have about 6 less Rage Rounds, from combining both Domain and Inquisition.

you will get very few 'free' Rage Powers that can't have Level Pre-Reqs.
the Inquisition says: 'Your effective barbarian level for this ability is your inquisitor level – 3...You do not gain any rage powers from this granted power', so you cannot count as having the 'Rage Power' ability from having this Inquisition. The Domain grants free Rage Powers, but only ones that don't have Level Pre-Reqs. To gain access to the 'full' Rage Power ability, which is needed to take Extra Rage Power (and Level-Pre Req Rage Powers), you will need to multi-class 2 levels in Barbarian.

It is definitely not clear whether you progress to Improved and Greater Rage. Effective Barb level is useful to determine scaling Rage Powers, and so the mentioning of that does NOT necessarily imply that the Rage Bonuses increase as if you gained the distinct Imp/Grt Rage class abilities that do that (the Rage ability itself doesn't automatically scale in that way). Tireless Rage is likewise a distinct class ability from Barbarian Rage.

Sure, taking both Inquisition and Domain as a Cleric will make you a better Rager than a Cleric who only took one or the other. But you aren't going to be better than a Barbarian at it, rather you will be signifigantly worse in certain aspects.