Potions are often times considered the lamest of the magic items; more expensive than scrolls, limited to 3rd level spells, and personal spells are illegal. These days, no one even bothers to buy healing potions, which were once considered must-have items (in previous editions, before the advent of CLW wands and clerical spontaneous healing). I wouldn't waste a feat on learning how to craft them, and I certainly wouldn't spend precious gold buying them under normal circumstances.
That being said, the Alchemist gets the feat for free at 1st level, two levels early. Sice they have the feat, it might as well be used. But I am at a lose as to how to make potion crafting a valid exercise throughout game play. So I bring this challenge to you: help me come up with methods to make potion crafting useful and fun, especially beyond the lower levels. What are some good ways to take advantage of these over-priced magic items?
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Quick drinker trait.
Injection spears/blades.
There's your "use" upgrades.
Alchemist gets the feat for free, and can accelerate the speed of completion.
Witches can get cauldron, then an upgraded version that allows for multiple potions crafted in the same process.
Both can take hedge wizard trait for further gp reduction, and Skill Focus(Alchemy/Spellcraft).
Boom, move-action potions, of a huge array of spells, at reduced cost and time to craft.
Not sure if there's anything else to toss in thee, but either way, you have a Witch or Alchemist to back up their potion making.
Seeing as it allows you limited access to spells outside your class list, I think it is really quite useful as far as feats go.
There are some potions that can be very useful. A potion of Darkvision lasts for 3 hours, easily a dungeon in many circumstances; stealthy humans love it. A potion of Restoration, Lesser takes only 1 round to drink instead of 3 rounds to cast, which means it can actually be used in combat to offset some heavy penalties for a martial character. It never hurts to have a potion of Fly stashed away. A Potion of Herosim gives a pretty decent bonus for lasting nearly an hour. Many potions are garbage, but there are a few well worth the cost.
Two words: Alchemical Aloocation.
With that extract, potions will become pure gold. Convince your party to part with 750 gold to arm your 4th-level alchemist with 3rd-level spells from any class. If you're not playing PFS, get some absolutely insane effects from Summoner potions. Find the highest caster-level potion of Greater Magic Fang that you can and use Alchemical Allocation to buff your Druid friend and/or her companion all day long. Live like the god of alchemy that you are!
I've read in a number of threads the hotly debated loophole about potion crafting, that since they aren't spell trigger or completion items, the crafter can technically make a potion from any list by upping the DC by 5. Is that accurate? If so, then that's a neat way for a witch to deal with its woeful lack of defensive magic; brew a few potions of resist energy, for instance.
I've read in a number of threads the hotly debated loophole about potion crafting, that since they aren't spell trigger or completion items, the crafter can technically make a potion from any list by upping the DC by 5. Is that accurate? If so, then that's a neat way for a witch to deal with its woeful lack of defensive magic; brew a few potions of resist energy, for instance.
Yep.
The real trick is figuring out how to get alchemical allocation for characters other than the alchemist. Could you put it in a wand or something (ie. find an alchemist with craft wand or a cooperation between say a wizard and an alchemist)?Infusion Discovery.
Done.
Indeed. I'm afraid I had assumed that when I talked about allocating a high-level Greater Magic Fang for your Druid. My Alchemist in last year's Iron Player Tournament used nearly his entire daily allotment of 2nd-level extracts to GMF all of the lion shaman's natural attacks to +5. It was worth it.
Well in "The Gateway to the east" there is a regional trait I think that gives you access to any one spell that can be made into a potion specifically for making a potion.
Might be limited to first level only though.
I've read in a number of threads the hotly debated loophole about potion crafting, that since they aren't spell trigger or completion items, the crafter can technically make a potion from any list by upping the DC by 5. Is that accurate? If so, then that's a neat way for a witch to deal with its woeful lack of defensive magic; brew a few potions of resist energy, for instance.Yep.
This is awesome.
Now the witch character in our Kingmaker game will have a good reason to get the potion making hex.
I've read in a number of threads the hotly debated loophole about potion crafting, that since they aren't spell trigger or completion items, the crafter can technically make a potion from any list by upping the DC by 5. Is that accurate? If so, then that's a neat way for a witch to deal with its woeful lack of defensive magic; brew a few potions of resist energy, for instance.
I have to believe that is not a loophole at all, but rather a very much intentional design decision, since it is the only thing that really makes the Brew Potion feat remotely interesting or worthwhile. And even as written it's still not even close to a must have.
Maybe an item that increased the versatility of potions?
I've read in a number of threads the hotly debated loophole about potion crafting, that since they aren't spell trigger or completion items, the crafter can technically make a potion from any list by upping the DC by 5. Is that accurate? If so, then that's a neat way for a witch to deal with its woeful lack of defensive magic; brew a few potions of resist energy, for instance.I have to believe that is not a loophole at all, but rather a very much intentional design decision, since it is the only thing that really makes the Brew Potion feat remotely interesting or worthwhile. And even as written it's still not even close to a must have.
This feat would be of great use to spontaneous casers, such as sorcerer or bard. A nice way to expand on a limited collection of spells. Expensive, but an option.
There are some potions that can be very useful. A potion of Darkvision lasts for 3 hours, easily a dungeon in many circumstances; stealthy humans love it. A potion of Restoration, Lesser takes only 1 round to drink instead of 3 rounds to cast, which means it can actually be used in combat to offset some heavy penalties for a martial character. It never hurts to have a potion of Fly stashed away. A Potion of Herosim gives a pretty decent bonus for lasting nearly an hour. Many potions are garbage, but there are a few well worth the cost.
That's a good call on the Lesser Restoration Potion; all the times I've cast that spell over the years, and I never noticed the three round casting time.
You bring up some good points on the usefulness of certain potions, which further begs the question: out of all the available potions, which are gems and which are garbage?
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Spells that can be made into potions or oils (Note, oils can be actually a lot better than potions in some ways).
Absorbing Touch
Accelerate Poison
Acute Senses
Aid
Air Walk
Align Weapon
Allfood
Animate Rope
Ant Haul
Anthropomorphic Animal
Anticipate Peril
Arcane Lock
Barkskin
Bear's Endurance
Bestow Curse
Bestow Grace
Blade of Bright Victory
Blade of Dark Triumph
Bleed
Bless Weapon
Blessing of Courage and Life
Blessing of the Mole
Blindness/Deafness
Blood Transcription
Bloody Claws
Blur
Brand
Bristle
Bull's Strength
Bungle
Burrow
Burst Bonds
Cackling Skull
Cast Out
Cat's Grace
Cause Fear
Cloak of Shade
Cloak of Winds
Compassionate Ally
Confess
Contagion
Continual Flame
Corruption Resistance
Countless Eyes
Crafter's Curse
Crafter's Fortune
Create Treasure Map
Cup of Dust
Cure Light Wounds
Cure Moderate Wounds
Cure Serious Wounds
Cushioning Bands
Dancing Lantern
Darkvision
Daylight
Daze
Daze Monster
Decompose Corpse
Defile Armor
Delay Pain
Delay Poison
Delusional Pride
Devolution
Disguise Other
Dispel Magic
Displacement
Doom
Draconic Reservoir
Eagle's Splendor
Eldritch Fever
Endure Elements
Enlarge Person
Erase
Evolution Surge
Evolution Surge, Lesser
Excruciating Deformation
Feast of Ashes
Feather Fall
Feather Step
Fester
Fire Trap
Flames of the Faithful
Fly
Forced Quiet
Fox's Cunning
Fumbletongue
Fungal Infestation
Gaseous Form
Gentle Repose
Good Hope
Guidance
Haste
Heal Mount
Heroism
Hex Ward
Hide from Animals
Hide from Undead
Hideous Laughter
Icicle Dagger
Ill Omen
Imbue with Aura
Inflict Light Wounds
Inflict Moderate Wounds
Inflict Serious Wounds
Invigorate
Invisibility
Invisibility, Greater
Jump
Keen Edge
Keen Senses
Ki Arrow
Knock
Levitate
Life Bubble
Light
Lockjaw
Mad Hallucination
Mage Armor
Magic Fang
Magic Fang, Greater
Magic Stone
Magic Vestment
Magic Weapon
Magic Weapon, Greater
Make Whole
Malicious Spite
Masterwork Transformation
Memory Lapse
Mending
Miserable Pity
Murderous Command
Natural Rhythm
Nature's Exile
Negate Aroma
Neutralize Poison
Nondetection
Obscure Object
Open/Close
Oppressive Boredom
Overwhelming Grief
Owl's Wisdom
Pass without Trace
Penumbra
Pernicious Poison
Phantom Trap
Poison
Pox Pustules
Protection from Arrows
Protection from Chaos
Protection from Energy
Protection from Evil
Protection from Good
Protection from Law
Protective Penumbra
Purify Food and Drink
Putrefy Food and Drink
Rage
Reckless Infatuation
Reduce Animal
Reduce Person
Rejuvenate Eidolon
Rejuvenate Eidolon, Lesser
Remove Blindness/Deafness
Remove Curse
Remove Disease
Remove Fear
Remove Paralysis
Remove Sickness
Resist Energy
Resistance
Restful Sleep
Restoration, Lesser
Restore Corpse
Restore Eidolon
Restore Eidolon, Lesser
Righteous Vigor
Root
Sanctify Armor
Sanctify Corpse
Sanctuary
Sands of Time
Sculpt Simulacrum
Shield of Faith
Shillelagh
Shrink Item
Silk to Steel
Sleep
Slipstream
Slow
Speak with Dead
Spider Climb
Stabilize
Steal Voice
Stoneskin
Strong Jaw
Tireless Pursuit
Tongues
Touch of Fatigue
Touch of Gracelessness
Touch of Idiocy
Touch of the Sea
Unadulterated Loathing
Undetectable Alignment
Unfetter
Unprepared Combatant
Unshakable Chill
Vanish
Versatile Weapon
Vestment of the Champion
Virtue
Vocal Alteration
Warp Wood
Wartrain Mount
Water Breathing
Water Walk
Weapon of Awe
Wood Shape
Wrathful Mantle
Youthful Appearance
A few that stand out to me as a nifty flavor wise if nothing else.
Remember, for an adventuring party, wands are usually good. But, a lot of people don't have spells or UMD, and potions just work. So, a potion is very popular with people who can't cast or use wands, and cheaper generally when needed than keeping an adept around full time to cast spells.
Also, spells with expensive components at low levels are also good candidates for potions, since for a wand you have to do 50x the expensive component, and a lot of times you don't need 50 castings of something, just 1 or 2 uses for odd emergencies.
Small treatise first though...
Youthful Appearance : I can see these being very popular in brothels. :)
Blade of Dark Triumph/Bright Victory : An (Anti)Paladin spell that can be turned into an oil, gives some really nice boosts.
Restore Eidelon : Another of those expensive component items that you might want to toss your eidelon in combat, rather than waiting till later to cast.
Stoneskin : DR 10/Adamantine is nice to have, but you may not want to spend 12,500gp plus the price of a 3rd level wand for 50 uses.
A few that stand out to me as a nifty flavor wise if nothing else.
Remember, for an adventuring party, wands are usually good. But, a lot of people don't have spells or UMD, and potions just work. So, a potion is very popular with people who can't cast or use wands, and cheaper generally when needed than keeping an adept around full time to cast spells.
Also, spells with expensive components at low levels are also good candidates for potions, since for a wand you have to do 50x the expensive component, and a lot of times you don't need 50 castings of something, just 1 or 2 uses for odd emergencies.
Small treatise first though...
Youthful Appearance : I can see these being very popular in brothels. :)
Blade of Dark Triumph/Bright Victory : An (Anti)Paladin spell that can be turned into an oil, gives some really nice boosts.
Restore Eidelon : Another of those expensive component items that you might want to toss your eidelon in combat, rather than waiting till later to cast.
Stoneskin : DR 10/Adamantine is nice to have, but you may not want to spend 12,500gp plus the price of a 3rd level wand for 50 uses.
Wow, good list. But aren't potions restricted to 3rd level spells? Stoneskin is 4th level, isn't it?
Level alchemist 4, druid 5, inquisitor 4, sorcerer/wizard 4, summoner 3
Level alchemist 4, druid 5, inquisitor 4, sorcerer/wizard 4, summoner 3
Ahhhh. That will teach me to not read other spell lists. I should have noticed that when I was skimming the summoner earlier. Good to know.
Blade of Dark Triumph/Bright Victory : An (Anti)Paladin spell that can be turned into an oil, gives some really nice boosts.It's not very useful for characters without the divine bond or fiendish boon.
Could use UMD, I think. . .
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Blade of Dark Triumph/Bright Victory : An (Anti)Paladin spell that can be turned into an oil, gives some really nice boosts.It's not very useful for characters without the divine bond or fiendish boon.Could use UMD, I think. . .
Not any more than you could use UMD to cast Enlarge Person on an ooze.
Not any more than you could use UMD to cast Enlarge Person on an ooze.
Well, not quite -- but UMD doesn't work anyway. You can't use UMD to qualify for a spell's target. You can only use UMD to cast a spell (say, from a scroll) or activate a magic item. It won't emulate class features that a spell could work on.
Oh well. . .
Blade of Dark Triumph/Bright Victory : An (Anti)Paladin spell that can be turned into an oil, gives some really nice boosts.It's not very useful for characters without the divine bond or fiendish boon.
Meh, sorry. I misread it as Bonded Weapon, not Divine Bonded Weapon. If it didn't have Divine in it, then anyone with a bonded weapon could use it, like Wizards, Blade Bound Magus, etc.
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I've read in a number of threads the hotly debated loophole about potion crafting, that since they aren't spell trigger or completion items, the crafter can technically make a potion from any list by upping the DC by 5. Is that accurate? If so, then that's a neat way for a witch to deal with its woeful lack of defensive magic; brew a few potions of resist energy, for instance.I have to believe that is not a loophole at all, but rather a very much intentional design decision, since it is the only thing that really makes the Brew Potion feat remotely interesting or worthwhile. And even as written it's still not even close to a must have.
I see this as a misreading of the rules for item creation. The DC change is a general rule about creating any kind of item. The various item descriptions list any requirements. The specific rules for potions do not include requirements, it specifically states you have to have the spell prepared. Potions do not have any requirements listed in the item descriptions (unlike say wondrous items).
Do you intend to follow the same line of reasoning that anyone with scribe scroll can write any spell with a DC+5 penalty?
If you're reading the rules in this way, it sounds like this should be covered in the FAQ to clarify.
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I see this as a misreading of the rules for item creation. The DC change is a general rule about creating any kind of item. The various item descriptions list any requirements. The specific rules for potions do not include requirements, it specifically states you have to have the spell prepared. Potions do not have any requirements listed in the item descriptions (unlike say wondrous items).
Do you intend to follow the same line of reasoning that anyone with scribe scroll can write any spell with a DC+5 penalty?
If you're reading the rules in this way, it sounds like this should be covered in the FAQ to clarify.
It's one of the differences between Spell Completion items (scrolls), Spell Trigger items (wands), and Use Activated items (potions)...
'... In addition you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites...' (Core book page 549, emphasis mine).
Mdt seems to have missed some potential potions off his (awesome BTW!) list - such as Shocking Grasp. Drinking a potion of Shocking Grasp means you're attacking yourself with a Shocking Grasp spell... so it's not a sensible thing to do. Enter the Witch's favourite spell: Beguiling Gift (APG page 205)...
Mdt seems to have missed some potential potions off his (awesome BTW!) list - such as Shocking Grasp. Drinking a potion of Shocking Grasp means you're attacking yourself with a Shocking Grasp spell... so it's not a sensible thing to do. Enter the Witch's favourite spell: Beguiling Gift (APG page 205)...
That was intentional. I intentionally tried not to do anything that was an attack spell or a mental spell that required the caster to make decisions, since you can't really do that to yourself. :)
The list comes from me putting every spell from every book into a spreadsheet, figuring out it's level from each class that gets it, then checking the stat blocks to see if it could be made into a potion by any class (3 or less, non personal, etc).
Then I put all that into a database so I could use it in a random item generator program to populate villages, thorps, metropolises, etc. So it's kind of easy now to pull a list of spells by specific requirements (level, caster list, potion or wand valid, etc).
Mdt seems to have missed some potential potions off his (awesome BTW!) list - such as Shocking Grasp. Drinking a potion of Shocking Grasp means you're attacking yourself with a Shocking Grasp spell... so it's not a sensible thing to do. Enter the Witch's favourite spell: Beguiling Gift (APG page 205)...That was intentional. I intentionally tried not to do anything that was an attack spell or a mental spell that required the caster to make decisions, since you can't really do that to yourself. :)
The list comes from me putting every spell from every book into a spreadsheet, figuring out it's level from each class that gets it, then checking the stat blocks to see if it could be made into a potion by any class (3 or less, non personal, etc).
Then I put all that into a database so I could use it in a random item generator program to populate villages, thorps, metropolises, etc. So it's kind of easy now to pull a list of spells by specific requirements (level, caster list, potion or wand valid, etc).
Wow, that must have taken a lot of work! I'm glad you did it, though. This makes it much easier to find a valid potion, rather then thumbing through endless pages of spell descriptions.
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| 1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I see this as a misreading of the rules for item creation. The DC change is a general rule about creating any kind of item. The various item descriptions list any requirements. The specific rules for potions do not include requirements, it specifically states you have to have the spell prepared. Potions do not have any requirements listed in the item descriptions (unlike say wondrous items).
Do you intend to follow the same line of reasoning that anyone with scribe scroll can write any spell with a DC+5 penalty?
If you're reading the rules in this way, it sounds like this should be covered in the FAQ to clarify.
It's one of the differences between Spell Completion items (scrolls), Spell Trigger items (wands), and Use Activated items (potions)...
'... In addition you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites...' (Core book page 549, emphasis mine).
I take your point in reference to non usage trigger items being specifically excluded in the text you quote.
However all the other use trigger items specifically list the prerequisites which can be overridden by the DC+5 option. For Potions, there is no specific prerequisite to be overridden, the spell memorisation "must have" is not stated to be a pre-requisite, so can't be overridden.The creator must have prepared the spell to be placed in the potion (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.
For all other use activated items the prerequisites are clearly mentioned. Not so for potions. Had it stated that the prepared spell was a prerequisite, then I'd agree with your interpretation.
As a meta-rule point, I find it hard to believe that the intention was to allow spell list shopping for spells to get the lowest level for a given spell by class. This sounds like the old polymorph issue that was only limited by the monsters in the bestiary.
Given that this can be interpreted more than one way, it's FAQ material.
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Just to note that a lot of the PF rules on item creation are a direct copy of the 3.5 SRD.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm
The major change was the paragraph waiving the prerequisite for DC+5.
Thus for 3.5 you have to be able to cast the spell to make the potion, no get-out clause.
My view is that the DC+5 rule was intended for the permanent use activated items and potions were not clearly included or excluded in RAW.
Interestingly, the 3x caster level is a simple pre-requisite meaning that a lvl 1 Wizard has the same DC+5 for a +1 or a +5 weapon in RAW. This seems unbalanced.
Wow, that must have taken a lot of work! I'm glad you did it, though. This makes it much easier to find a valid potion, rather then thumbing through endless pages of spell descriptions.
Yep, a LOT of copy/paste/edit to get it into the spreadsheet, and then a lot of double checking each spell to see if it's potionable (and a LOT of judgement calls).
Yup - mdt's bumper list of potionable spells is definitly worth adding as a favourite post!
LOL, thanks.
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Just to note that a lot of the PF rules on item creation are a direct copy of the 3.5 SRD.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm
The major change was the paragraph waiving the prerequisite for DC+5.
Yes - and it was a major change - it was meant to be, to make Item Creation Feats for PCs more attractive and useful. It worked.
Thus for 3.5 you have to be able to cast the spell to make the potion, no get-out clause.
Yes... in 3.5 there was no 'get out' clause for any Item Creation, was there? You just had to suck it up and manage to hit all the prerequisites...
My view is that the DC+5 rule was intended for the permanent use activated items and potions were not clearly included or excluded in RAW.
Yes, they clearly were included, by dint of not being spell-trigger or spell-completion items.
Put another way - if for some strange reason you couldn't skip the spell prerequisite for potions, why would anyone ever even try to brew the things, instead of just making Wonderous Item 'elixirs' instead? So you need to ban making elixirs that way too... but they're Wonderous Items, so I guess you need to ban making them like that as well... and soon enough it's... oh, wait - we've right back at the bad old days of 3.5 Item Crafting... ;)
Interestingly, the 3x caster level is a simple pre-requisite meaning that a lvl 1 Wizard has the same DC+5 for a +1 or a +5 weapon in RAW. This seems unbalanced.
The debate on whether 'caster level' is a prerequisite you can skip with +5 DC is a long and involved one going round, and round, and round... Try a search or two for some threads - but suffice to say it's a different issue to that of not needing to know the spell to brew the potion: which is clearly established RAW.
If you happen to prefer the old 3.5 Item Crafting rules, then by all means, feel free to use them - but Pathfinder did change them (I think for the better, but that's just me...).
I don't think the intention was to allow someone to make a potion of a spell not on their spell list however. I think a +5 for making a spell you don't know (such as a sorcerer making potions for example) is acceptable, if he's making a sorcerer spell potion. I don't think he should be able to take +5 and make a cleric potion however. So, in my own games, you can bypass having the spell memorized, but not having the spell on your casting list at the level you're making it.