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Drench
School conjuration (creation) [water]; Level sorcerer/wizard 0
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one creature or object of size Large or smaller
Duration 1 round
Saving Throw Reflex negates (object); Spell Resistance yes (object)
A sudden downpour soaks the target creature or object. The rain follows the subject up to the range of the spell, soaking the target with water. If the target is on fire, the flames are automatically extinguished. Fires smaller than campfires (such as lanterns and torches) are automatically extinguished by this spell.
How does this spell interact with fire elementals and the like (more specifically the smaller ones)? I wouldn't expect it to be an instant fizzle-pop-death. However, I would not begrudge one of my players for thinking to deal significant damage with the spell.
After-thought: The spell description does not specifically call out non-magical fires, either. The saving throws and SR only mention objects. Does that mean a creature cannot make a save? I would (obviously) rule otherwise on that were I allowing a player to cast this spell offensively.
Drench
School conjuration (creation) [water]; Level sorcerer/wizard 0
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one creature or object of size Large or smaller
Duration 1 round
Saving Throw Reflex negates (object); Spell Resistance yes (object)
A sudden downpour soaks the target creature or object. The rain follows the subject up to the range of the spell, soaking the target with water. If the target is on fire, the flames are automatically extinguished. Fires smaller than campfires (such as lanterns and torches) are automatically extinguished by this spell.How does this spell interact with fire elementals and the like (more specifically the smaller ones)? I wouldn't expect it to be an instant fizzle-pop-death. However, I would not begrudge one of my players for thinking to deal significant damage with the spell.
After-thought: The spell description does not specifically call out non-magical fires, either. The saving throws and SR only mention objects. Does that mean a creature cannot make a save? I would (obviously) rule otherwise on that were I allowing a player to cast this spell offensively.
Considering it's a cantrip, I'd say no more than 1d3 points damage.
Considering it's a cantrip, I'd say no more than 1d3 points damage.Target one creature or object of size Large or smaller
Saving Throw Reflex negates (object); Spell Resistance yes (object)
A sudden downpour soaks the target creature or object. If the target is on fire, the flames are automatically extinguished. Fires smaller than campfires (such as lanterns and torches) are automatically extinguished by this spell.
I would agree if not for the last bolded line. That pretty much sounds like it would snuff out a small or medium fire elemental with a single cast.
I understand the RAI is for this to extinguish burning creatures that have caught fire because of something like a fire elemental's burn ability, but the spell as written is not clear enough on that. The spell is vague, and has enough supporting details (emphasized above) that I can't justify saying 'nothing happens' should it come up in game.
Another after-thought: Sure, a fire elemental isn't ON fire, it IS fire. That's a semantics argument and doesn't really solve the issue. Just nipping that in the bud.
Considering it's a cantrip, I'd say no more than 1d3 points damage.I would agree if not for the last bolded line. That pretty much sounds like it would snuff out a small or medium fire elemental with a single cast.
I understand the RAI is for this to extinguish burning creatures that have caught fire because of something like a fire elemental's burn ability, but the spell as written is not clear enough on that. The spell is vague, and has enough supporting details (emphasized above) that I can't justify saying 'nothing happens' should it come up in game.
Another after-thought: Sure, a fire elemental isn't ON fire, it IS fire. That's a semantics argument and doesn't really solve the issue. Just nipping that in the bud.
Considering that even a tiny fire elemental is still the size of a campfire, unless all your campfires have been really big honkin things, then it still wouldn't put out the campfire sized object, as per your bolded text.
As Stubs said, it's not really semantics, it's an important distinction. Even if you have a table-ruling that says that the elemental is small enough to fall under that text, the very basic premise of cantrips is that they aren't supposed to be powerful spells. yes, they may be used to powerful effects, and yes, acid splash may well instantly kill some first level NPCs, that's not their intended role.
I miss the days when a cantrip couldn't deal more than a single point of damage...
Fire Elemental are not small fires, they are elemental.
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How does this spell interact with fire elementals and the like (more specifically the smaller ones)? I wouldn't expect it to be an instant fizzle-pop-death. However, I would not begrudge one of my players for thinking to deal significant damage with the spell.
As written, fire elementals are not harmed by water but are vulnerable to cold. Their interaction with water reads, "A fire elemental cannot enter water or any other nonflammable liquid. A body of water is an impassible barrier unless the fire elemental can step or jump over it or the water is covered with a flammable material (such as a layer of oil)."
Introducing water on a fire elemental creates a bit of a conundrum, but also room for creativity. Frankly, how is this different from create water in terms of how it interacts with fire elementals? The specific language? That it has duration rather than being a creation spell with duration other than instantaneous? I'd go with no damage, but with a short term problem associated with an impassible barrier on the floor for a period of time. All told, it should probably have lesser impact than create water in this regard due to the duration, but in both cases, these are 0-level spells; keep it creative and fun but not overwhelming in effect.
Fire Elemental are not small fires, they are elemental.
I'm going to quote this one more time...
Target one creature or object of size Large or smaller
A fire elemental is a CREATURE. The spell text never says "non-magical fires" and does not make ANY EXCEPTIONS to contradict this use of the spell. I am fully aware of the INTENT.
The spell can target creatures. The spell extinguishes fire. All I wanted to know was how people would handle it. I even said that I didn't think it should be an instant snuff, but that the description implied that it would harm said creatures. My posts have only been to point out the details of the spell that lend to the idea of casting it with offensive intent.
If I had wanted snark, I would have troll'd for it.
I doubt it would affect magical fires and therefore not affect elementals.
As written, fire elementals are not harmed by water but are vulnerable to cold. Their interaction with water reads, "A fire elemental cannot enter water or any other nonflammable liquid. A body of water is an impassible barrier unless the fire elemental can step or jump over it or the water is covered with a flammable material (such as a layer of oil)."
Introducing water on a fire elemental creates a bit of a conundrum, but also room for creativity. Frankly, how is this different from create water in terms of how it interacts with fire elementals? The specific language? That it has duration rather than being a creation spell with duration other than instantaneous? I'd go with no damage, but with a short term problem associated with an impassible barrier on the floor for a period of time. All told, it should probably have lesser impact than create water in this regard due to the duration, but in both cases, these are 0-level spells; keep it creative and fun but not overwhelming in effect.
This is a reasonable answer, and far more informative. Thank you. I was actually just questioning the real utility of this spell in comparison to create water.
However, your post does raise another question: how do water elementals react to fire elementals? Hostile? If they fight, does a fire elemental win because the water elemental doesn't quench the elemental fire? Does a fire elemental just avoid a water elemental because it is a 'barrier' or sorts?
I doubt it would affect magical fires and therefore not affect elementals.
This. Puts out a smallish fire, a person affected by fire magic, something lit by a spark spell, or even a small campfire, etc., but it would evaporate instantly against a fire elemental of any size, and couldn't put out magical fire.
It could counter Spark. That's it.
You'd need a higher level spell for big fires, like Quench.
It says target creature because if bob the fighter got hit by something that lit him on fire you cast drench on him.
i doubt it does anything to fire elementals.
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However, your post does raise another question: how do water elementals react to fire elementals? Hostile? If they fight, does a fire elemental win because the water elemental doesn't quench the elemental fire? Does a fire elemental just avoid a water elemental because it is a 'barrier' or sorts?
If memory serves, the elemental planes bleed together at their edges, yet they still exist, implying that they cannot simply destroy each other. Given that fire elementals are weak to cold, a water elemental may be at an advantage, but the game has a difference between water and cold attacks.
I'm sorry, but I think something has been forgotten in all this.
A campfire is not the size of a halfling. Halflings are size Small.
Campfires, in my opinion, should be considered size tiny. Consider that's 2 1/2 feet of fire. That sounds like every camp fire I've ever had...
A Torch should likely be considered Diminutive, as they are roughly a foot long or so with a burny bit on the end. Lamps and candles should likely be size small at half a foot or there abouts.
A Small Fire Elemental is roughly the size of a halfling or your average 10 year old human kid.
Water Elementals and Fire Elementals do not get any bonuses to each other, though it would make sense from a role play aspect, the rules however are set up to deal with the roll players.
As I said way back at the beginning, given the nature of a small fire elemental, and the nature of the drench spell (I envisioned it like the little storm cloud that follows a character around from old cartoons that makes a character all wet), I'd be willing to give it a single point of damage against a fire elemental. I'd even be willing to let myself be swayed by a good argument that it could do as much as 1d3 of damage. if it's a REALLY good argument, i'd go as high as 1d4, but no chance of going any higher.
A better use of the spell, imo, is to control where the elemental could go, heard it where you want it, then hit it with Ray of Frost...
Fire Elemental are not small fires, they are elemental.I'm going to quote this one more time...
Target one creature or object of size Large or smallerA fire elemental is a CREATURE. The spell text never says "non-magical fires" and does not make ANY EXCEPTIONS to contradict this use of the spell. I am fully aware of the INTENT.
The spell can target creatures. The spell extinguishes fire. All I wanted to know was how people would handle it. I even said that I didn't think it should be an instant snuff, but that the description implied that it would harm said creatures. My posts have only been to point out the details of the spell that lend to the idea of casting it with offensive intent.
If I had wanted snark, I would have troll'd for it.
Wow, I really wasnt trying to be snark at all. I was trying to make a point that this spell looks like was supposed to effect other things, not be a combat spell really. I am sure the game designers know people would think about using such a spell on an elemental, but when it comes do to it I still come down to my original assessment which I was trying to say in a quick and easy sentence. You are looking too much into this spell, it does nothing really that it does not say it does.
That being said, at worst considering this is continual spell, I would probably say they are distracted, maybe Dazzled for the duration of the spell.