Ok, so assuming that Energy Admixture is allowed in your game, how do the effects stack with Maximize and Empower? How would Intensified work into that?
We already know that an empowered & maximized spell deals normal dice maximized, then adds in the +50% extra dice from empowered.
This suggests that the Energy Admixture would just add extra dice of the different energy type. Similarly, Intensified would also add 5 levels of whatever damage type the original spell did, right?
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We already know that an empowered & maximized spell deals normal dice maximized, then adds in the +50% extra dice from empowered.
I may have misunderstood, but it seems to me this combination normally gives you 100% of variable damage + 50% of normally rolled.
So, an empowered maximized spell with a 10d6+5 base would deal 65 + (10d6+5)/2 damage.
We already know that an empowered & maximized spell deals normal dice maximized, then adds in the +50% extra dice from empowered.I may have misunderstood, but it seems to me this combination normally gives you 100% of variable damage + 50% of normally rolled.
So, an empowered maximized spell with a 10d6+5 base would deal 65 + (10d6+5)/2 damage.
Far as I understand it, half of 10d6 is 5d6, not (the value of 10d6)/2. I believe that's the way that particular mechanic works... (though, I may be wrong. It's how we've been playing it at our table)
Anyone have a reference for this?
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An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus half the normally rolled result.
When you think about it, it's actually clearer than the Empowered Spell description that states "increases by half", when Maximized clarifies the exact benefit by "add half the normally rolled result".
Thus, Maximized empowered 10d6 => 60 + (10d6)/2, not 60 + 5d6.I had to search recently for this so I remembered while reading your post. :)
An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus half the normally rolled result.When you think about it, it's actually clearer than the Empowered Spell description that states "increases by half", when Maximized clarifies the exact benefit by "add half the normally rolled result".
Thus, Maximized empowered 10d6 => 60 + (10d6)/2, not 60 + 5d6.
I had to search recently for this so I remembered while reading your post. :)
Ok, so to use Fireball for example (even though these 4 feats would push it epic, let's just ignore that for the moment). You'd wind up with:
Maximize: 60 [fire]Empowered: 10d6/2 [fire]
Energy Admixture[cold]: 10d6 [cold]
Intensified: 5d6 [fire]
Does that sound right?
An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus half the normally rolled result.When you think about it, it's actually clearer than the Empowered Spell description that states "increases by half", when Maximized clarifies the exact benefit by "add half the normally rolled result".
Thus, Maximized empowered 10d6 => 60 + (10d6)/2, not 60 + 5d6.
I had to search recently for this so I remembered while reading your post. :)Ok, so to use Fireball for example (even though these 4 feats would push it epic, let's just ignore that for the moment). You'd wind up with:
Maximize: 60 [fire]
Empowered: 10d6/2 [fire]
Energy Admixture[cold]: 10d6 [cold]
Intensified: 5d6 [fire]Does that sound right?
I'm not quite sure how Energy Admixture works out, but if it's anything like Elemental Spell, than it just realigns the entire spell.
Intensified Spell actually increases the dice cap of the spell, so maximizing it would indeed 'stack.'
So an Elemental (Cold) Intensified Empowered Maximized Fireball would deal: 90 + 10d6/2 [cold]
EDIT: Although I would recommend using the Admixture Subschool that an Evoker can take; realign spells to another energy type 3+Int times per day. (When you cast a fire, cold, electric, or acid spell, you can change the damage to another one of those 4)
Also; this is a 6th level spell:
It's essentially a Elemental [Cold], Intensified, Widened, Heightened (3 levels) Fireball.
It also has a few bonus abilties (deals 15d8 instead if its against a water creature; freezes the surface of water for 1 round/level; delay firing)
So in order to get a fireball to do that, a 3rd level spell, excluding the bonus abilities, you'd need to increase the level by 8, or an 11th level spell.
...just learn this 6th level spell and give up on metamagic? >.<; At least that's what Pathfinder makes me feel like doing. You can always use metamagic rods... >.>
I've never been a huge fan of metamagic. I think it's novel and I'm glad it exists to give options, but I never really find myself using it. With the notable exception of a lesser metamagic rod of extend is always one of the first purchases my Mage makes so that his Mage armor can last all day ASAP.
Hopefully this is still in the spirit of the thread, but I have a question.
What are some of the best/coolest/most powerful spell and metamagic combos? If this is derailing from the original intent too much just say and I'll start a new thread.
Metamagic isn't great for everything -- I think anyone can see that. However for specific points it does have a lot of use.
Intensify and Reach spell are both extremely useful, if for different groups -- Intensify can be very useful for bards, oracles and clerics of the blasting persuasion, while Reach can very much help out the debuffing wizard or cleric or the healing witch, oracle or cleric (especially the last two that can sacrifice a spell of higher level to metamagic their cure spell). Intensify is also very useful for sorcerers using spells like dragon's breath -- taking a fourth level spell to fifth level for an additional 5d6 damage can be worth it in the right circumstances -- indeed for several sorcerers it is better than empowering or maximizing a spell most times (since they get extra damage per dice rolled).
Maximize can be very useful -- with the right spell for summoning it has potential but empower is probably a better choice -- that said about the only summoning I would do with these feats would be for more lantern archons -- one of the only monsters from the lower lists that can stay relevant at later levels.
Extend can save you spell slots too -- by giving up a higher level spell slot you can often cause a spell to last long enough for the entire adventuring day instead of simply 2/3 of it. Heroism is an excellent example of a spell that this can be good for as is Resist Energy.
I've never been a huge fan of metamagic. I think it's novel and I'm glad it exists to give options, but I never really find myself using it. With the notable exception of a lesser metamagic rod of extend is always one of the first purchases my Mage makes so that his Mage armor can last all day ASAP.
Hopefully this is still in the spirit of the thread, but I have a question.
What are some of the best/coolest/most powerful spell and metamagic combos? If this is derailing from the original intent too much just say and I'll start a new thread.
Well, in Pathfinder, most nice metamagic combos involve the application of lower level metamagic to great effect.
Extend spell is indeed one of the handier metamagics because of the low adjustment. Reach spell is pretty cool, especially when you turn touch attacks into short range attacks.
Persistent spell is just powerful. Dazing spell is perhaps the most powerful metamagic, but comes with the hefty price of +3. Quicken enables casting 2 spells per turn, but at +4, you might just want to purchase the expensive (but worth it) lesser rod of quicken.
The new Toppling and Rime metamagic from UM are pretty sweet; a +1 adjustment to turn Evocation into a more controller-ish thing. Piercing may be a good alternative to Spell Penetration.
Of course, the trait Magical Lineage (decrease level by 1 when the chosen spell has metamagic applied) is an enabler for all sorts of metamagic combos, especially with just one +1 metamagic.
I'm not quite sure how Energy Admixture works out, but if it's anything like Elemental Spell, than it just realigns the entire spell.
Intensified Spell actually increases the dice cap of the spell, so maximizing it would indeed 'stack.'
So an Elemental (Cold) Intensified Empowered Maximized Fireball would deal: 90 + 10d6/2 [cold]
EDIT: Although I would recommend using the Admixture Subschool that an Evoker can take; realign spells to another energy type 3+Int times per day. (When you cast a fire, cold, electric, or acid spell, you can change the damage to another one of those 4)
um, no.
Energy Admixture is not Energy Substitution (which is now similar to Elemental Spell), which is what you're describing. Basically, it doubles the damage of the spell by adding a second energy type (and copies the dice of damage to that new energy type). It also uses up a spell slot 4 levels higher.
To use fireball as an example again: Energy Admixture [cold] Fireball (3rd level spell in a 7th level slot)
Fireball 10d6 [fire]
10d6 [cold]
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Most people didn't like the Sudden Metamagic feats (but they love the Metamagic Rods, being able to use feats without spending feats), but I've gotten a lot of use out of Sudden Widen. When you can cast Sudden Widened Glitterdust at 3rd level, you get a lot of utility. Since Widen Spell is +3 spell level, it has a huge payback.
The economy for Empower and Maximize typically isn't worth it, and can typically be replaced with a higher-level spell. The larger the die, however, the better the economy of Maximize.
Extend Spell is usually used to make buffs last longer, but in the case of spells that do damage over a long period of time, they can essentially double their damage output--like Extended Acid Arrow or Summon Monster.
Since the cost of casting Permanency is based on the spell and not its level, casting a Heightened version of a low-level spell is a great way to make it more difficult to dispel. Permanency on a Heightened Enlarge Person, for example.
I have a Sorcerer/Oracle that wears regular armor and uses a lot of Still Spell when it's critical to have the spell take place.
I'm not quite sure how Energy Admixture works out, but if it's anything like Elemental Spell, than it just realigns the entire spell.
Intensified Spell actually increases the dice cap of the spell, so maximizing it would indeed 'stack.'
So an Elemental (Cold) Intensified Empowered Maximized Fireball would deal: 90 + 10d6/2 [cold]
EDIT: Although I would recommend using the Admixture Subschool that an Evoker can take; realign spells to another energy type 3+Int times per day. (When you cast a fire, cold, electric, or acid spell, you can change the damage to another one of those 4)
um, no.
Energy Admixture is not Energy Substitution (which is now similar to Elemental Spell), which is what you're describing. Basically, it doubles the damage of the spell by adding a second energy type (and copies the dice of damage to that new energy type). It also uses up a spell slot 4 levels higher.
To use fireball as an example again: Energy Admixture [cold] Fireball (3rd level spell in a 7th level slot)
Fireball 10d6 [fire]
10d6 [cold]
*takes a look in Complete Arcane*
Ah, okay. Then an Energy Admixtured Maximized Empowered Intensified Fireball would deal: 90 + 15d6/2 [fire] AND 90 + 15d6/2 [cold]
From how the metamagic are worded, they indeed all stack.
...if you could somehow cast that at 15th level. Arcane Thesis, Easy Metamagic, Practical Metamagic, Incantatrix, Halruaan Elder, etc? (You are using 3.5 stuff. O_o)
(shrug) Metamagic rods.From how the metamagic are worded, they indeed all stack.
...if you could somehow cast that at 15th level. Arcane Thesis, Easy Metamagic, Practical Metamagic, Incantatrix, Halruaan Elder, etc? (You are using 3.5 stuff. O_o)
Well, you can only use one rod at a time.
Rod of Energy Admixture + Magical Lineage makes it a level 8 spell. Doable at 15th.
True. However, even including 3.5, I'm not sure if there's ever been a rod of Energy Admixture. (Like there's no such thing as a rod of Widen or rod of Still) ...but this is almost beside the point. It all depends on whatever rules are available to Nostagar.
*takes a look in Complete Arcane*
Ah, okay. Then an Energy Admixtured Maximized Empowered Intensified Fireball would deal: 90 + 15d6/2 [fire] AND 90 + 15d6/2 [cold]
From how the metamagic are worded, they indeed all stack.
...if you could somehow cast that at 15th level. Arcane Thesis, Easy Metamagic, Practical Metamagic, Incantatrix, Halruaan Elder, etc? (You are using 3.5 stuff. O_o)
Yes, basically the rule at our current table is that it's D&D 3.75. We play with the 3.5 sources, unless there's something in Pathfinder that says otherwise. Which means that 90% of the time it's pathfinder plus spells & feats taken from 3.5.
True. However, even including 3.5, I'm not sure if there's ever been a rod of Energy Admixture. (Like there's no such thing as a rod of Widen or rod of Still) ...but this is almost beside the point. It all depends on whatever rules are available to Nostagar.Rod of Energy Admixture + Magical Lineage makes it a level 8 spell. Doable at 15th.
So what? Only the GM can say that you can't have a non-standard metamagic rod. Just like he can say you can't have any metamagic rods because he thinks they are unbalancing. The mechanics for creating a rod is already in PF. Instead of making it yourself, you just have someone with the feat make it for you (or cooperate in making it with you), or your GM includes it in your treasure.
If nothing else, it never hurts to ask the GM "Hey, can I get a ..." unless your GM has already said "Piazo sources only!" and even then, unless he's already peeved at you, the worst he'll do is say no.