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Mistake 1:
5-6 players (one keeps not showing up, as does another, so I end up with 4-5 usually)
The number of players is difficult to manage encounters, but that should be balanced by using the 6 player mode, and the xp split will be less...however...
Simple: Combat tracker is your friend worth every peny you spend on one. Pathfindersrd / Magic / spell cards. will save you a ton of time if you make your players print them out for the spells they use all the time.
Mistake 2:
I was using the fast XP track instead of the medium and that sort of put the PCs at level 7 for 4, and level 6 for the ones that only get half xp for missing part of sessions. So we've got 4 level 7s and 2 level 6's. They're way higher than they should be, and their quite powerful. Is there a way to convert them to medium build, or should I be cutting xp off of monsters? I need to slow their rate down as they're walking through everything already.
Just keap them where there at and move them to the med. exp table for there level 8. so that keaps them all in line with each other. So level 8 they will need 51,000 exp. They will just have to tough out being level 7 for a long time.
Problem 3:
This is a problem, not a mistake. They unknowingly built power houses against plants/trolls/ and other such fire weak creatures. They're capable of fireballs (alot of them) breathing fire, etc. So they rolled through the trolls like they were nothing (and I grouped them to fight apart from each other, but at the same time, which should have devestated them) So is there a way to stop them from doing such without outright killing them?
This is not a problem some group are realy good at some encounters. And have problems with difrent ones. If you have that meny casters when you start the 3rd book it will be clear where there weakness is.
Problem 4:
They're bored of exploring. They don't want to do the hexes or kingdom build much anymore. So I'm worried about KM 3, so I've decided to switch over to a custom made expedition to Numeria. My problem is summing up any plot relevant things that will happen in KM 3 (NPC rulers will explore, build city, etc. but if there is something I missed that's important to part 4/5 I should include it.Parts 4,5, and 6 would be right up their alley.
I recomend staying with the AP. And if your new to DM it's a good idea not to go off on a tangent. You can run kingdom in the back ground by useing the stat blocks in the start of each of the other AP. Now them being tired of exploring and kingdom building. I can't help you there. Thats what kingmaker is about for the most part. If they don't like sand boxes don't force it. Start somthing else and come back.
So that's all the ones I can think of, and I appreciate any help on fixing these things. Also, my characters have high stats. (I used my old 3.5 method of 4d6, 2 sets, re-roll 1's, drop the lowest)
This is your bigest problem. 4D6 standard or 20 point buy. Any thing over that will brak your game with out rewrighting the AP encounters. My group uses 15 Point buy and they are still taring thow encounters like there nothing. My five players are level 3 and the killed a Dire Bear(CR 7) in 1 1/2 rounds. They do have a optimized party. The Bards Inspire Courage and the Warlords Commanding Presence stack. So every one in the group is geting a +3 to hit and damage for right now. The bard hase master preformer from the faction guide(I waved the faction requirements for it). So at level 16 at the end of the AP there looking at a + 7 to hit and damage from the bard and warlord. Now they lack spell power for battle field control. And that might hurt them later on but hase not yet.
Oracle of Battle Weapon:Fauchard(Reach,Trip)
Bard Melee focused Fauchard(Reach,Trip)
Warlord (From tome of Secrets) Falcata&Sheild
Ranger Falcata(2)/Composet Long Bow
Rogue Short Swords(2)/Short Bow
Calagnar has some good ideas, but I will also add that Kingmaker is not for everyone. I enjoyed it, but such a freeform makes some people bored since it does not have enough focus.
I would not go to Numeria since you are knew, and you writing your own stuff defeats the purpose of an AP. A different AP might work. I would ask the players what they want out of the campaign. Get general idea as opposed to go to nation X.
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Thats all from the high ability scores. My group use to run with 25 point buy. And I hade to remake all the encounters for APs for them to be any kind of chalange. A realy good tool for makeing monsters with more HP and advanced templets. Is the Pathfindersrd web sight and just go under there monster builder. A few clikes later and you have a fully stated out monster.
You don't see the high stats as being a problem as a player. As a DM you can realy tell the difrence in power level of the characters. The reason the players don't see it is the DM is incressing the power level of the monster your fighting. Rember all monster use a 15 point buy base + race modifiers + Size modifiers to get there total. As well as reducing the abilitys of anamil companions, Bond Mounts, Mounts, and Edlions. By haven a high point buy system all the pet class take a stealth hit to there class abilitys. With all of them starting with a 15 point buy. So high point buy effect the game more then you think of as a player. As a DM that hase run both 25 epic fantisy, and 15 standard fantisy. I'm not going back to 25 point buys. I might try a 20 point buy.
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http://paizo.com/store/gameAids/gamingMats/gamingPaper
Best stuff ever for this AP. And for any AP if you get the grid map for combat. To me its so much easyer to use place markers then keap track of where all 5 players are in my head. I maped out the borders for the AP befor we started. And fill it in as they explore the area. So as they explore they can add there map notations on one big map. There is enough paper after They get it set out how they want things. We will start using the Second map for there kingdom building.
Now on the other part buildings and all the other stuff. I spent alot of time puting every thing in a much longer form we can fill in and keap track of. It's alot of book keaping and if you get behind. It's realy not any fun. I realy don't know of a easy why to keap up with all of it. The bigest problems is keaping track of what all the buildings do as you incress in size. That is why i made the longer building forms one per city district. To keap track of bonus per city district. It's easyer but not easy.
This is the only think I know of. I don't have this so im not sure how good or bad it is. Book of the River Nations: Complete Player's Reference for Kingdom Building
Alright, so I figured out some of the problems:
Kingmaker requires ALOT of extra book keeping, which we lack general organization. Is there a place I can buy like a Kingmaker kit? Something with the hex maps, ways to mark where we've been, where stuff has been placed, etc? I think that would make it a bit easier. I see GM decks, but don't know what they're used for. Maybe an improvement on bookkeeping would help.
Also, about the xp...so they're halfway through level 7 (unless I move the xp bar up) which puts them pretty high to go through KM 3, which is why I was going to do a custom scenario. Should I just cut xp from KM 3 then, or what? They need to be level 10 I think for KM 3, so Ihave to regulate how much xp they get.
The Kingmaker Player's Guide is a free download that includes a hex-map page template, as well as a couple of other forms for use in tracking the kingdom building aspects of the game.
If you're willing to spend a reasonable amount, you might also consider the print version of the Kingmaker Map Folio. It includes big poster maps for the four map areas of the Stolen Lands. Buy four poster sleeves (my Friendly Local Game Store orders Ultrapro poster sleeves of the appropriate size for me) to protect them, or get them laminated, so your players can use wet-erase transparency markers to track their progress and discoveries.
If you search the forums for Kingmaker Spreadsheets, there are a couple of useful ones out there - the one by Berhagen comes to mind. They help track buildings per city, and do all the calculations of kingdom statistics.
Finally, about XPs. Many DMs here on the boards don't award XPs normally - instead, we simply decide when is an appropriate time for the PCs to level up and announce it when the time comes. This eliminates the need to track XPs entirely, lets you have leveling coincide with the recommended levels of the adventure, and helps avoid players making metagame decisions based on how many XPs they need to level up so they can instead make decisions based on what their characters would actually do in a given situation.
Mistake 1:
5-6 players (one keeps not showing up, as does another, so I end up with 4-5 usually)...Mistake 2:
I was using the fast XP track...Problem 3:
This is a problem, not a mistake. They unknowingly built power houses against plants/trolls/ and other such fire weak creatures...Problem 4:
They're bored of exploring...
Others have chimed in, but here are some further thoughts:
1- 5-6 players isn't bad. My own group has six total. Sometimes we play four, sometimes five, sometimes six. The nature of the AP allows players to "be at work" on the kingdom while the rest adventure. At least sometimes. Preparedness can help when it comes to combat, naturally.
2- Hmm..Well, at the beginning of Book 3 they should be Lvl 7, so this may be okay. My group has pretty much ditched normal XP, and I tell them when to level. If your group likes the math part, I'd say move to Med track, look at the beginning of the book for "players should be level x when y", and go from there. They might wonder why they haven't leveled as quickly, but let 'em wonder. :)
3- Trolls, eh? Well, there's a bit more than just that out there. Shouldn't be a problem overall. They'll excel in some encounters, and you can always toss a few fire-based monsters there way, just to remind them that not everything is scared of flame. ;)
4- Oh, boy. Bored of kingdom building I can understand, but exploring? Okay, suggestions: For kingdom building, find some of the Excel files floating around the boards and you can stat out your players' cities on your own. At least that way they know what cities are in their kingdom.
As for exploring, I might suggest getting your hands on the Kingmaker Map Pack here at Paizo. If you don't mind them seeing the whole thing, tape them together, maybe glue or tap them together onto some cardboard. Then you can place pins into the map at certain places of note. Little flags or something.
Book 3 shouldn't be too bad, however. There is exploring, but there's the main quest which can be very direct.
Lastly, use the minor quests to your advantage. "It's not exploring, this guy wants you to find some eels! Go search some lakes and rivers!" You can have them investigate places in order to fulfill the quest, while not fully "exploring" the hex.
Of course, you know your group best. If they want to travel to Absalom, Quadira, and Sandpoint on a whirlwind tour of the Inner Sea, ditch the path for now and have fun. Sure, ten Golarion years from now when they return to the Stolen Lands, they may find the entire area a vast desert, but hey, that might be fun, too...:)
Tell the players that for book 3 onwards there will be more plot and direct quests. That grants them some patience.
If they need an adventure right now, then I recommend inserting one of these two adventures: Carnival of Tears or Realm of the Fellnight Queen. The former brings menace and splatter horror-comedy to your PCs' kingdom and foreshadows the BBEG menace; the latter foreshadows the BBEG menace. Just make the antagonists lieutenants of the AP's Book 6 villain. What this does is get them to invest in their kingdom (rather than abandon it) and to signal an epic fight ahead of them.
The simplest way to make the combats harder is to use the simple advanced template (basically +2 to all rolls, +4 to AC) and to max out the HP. The other thing to recognize is that the players may like rolling over certain encounters. Plants and trolls are going to be declining in frequency over the next books, so they should enjoy it while it lasts. Meantime, get some variety in there to test them.
Since accusations of cheating can ruin friendships and only rarely solve the problem, I recommend compensating for that dolt by having every monster he engages gain the advanced template and max HP. It's not a punishment; it's a correction.
This party is geared to deal out direct damage through melee and spell. What you need to do is to not play their game. Have some encounters where you have casters that specialize in battlefield control spells that immobilize or separate the party. Target some weak saves, likely reflex with this bunch. Fliers that make it tougher on melee should help lots too.
With respect to the Map Folio, I didn't bother to laminate or protect it- instead, I bought a bunch of small white labels that I gave to the players. They stick them to the map when they want to make a note of something. In the short-term, they don't leave any residue on the map - can't guarantee that they won't in the long-term, but frankly, I likely won't use the maps again so it doesn't really matter to me.
If your players are bored with exploring, there seems to be very little that you will be able to do to fix that. Exploring is a key part of that AP. For future considerations, I would consider what someone said in a different thread - try to get a one or two-sentence summary of a few different APs - if the players aren't interested in them, it certainly helps if you know that before starting.
That being said , I do have one idea that may help; it leant a bit of interest to my own campaign. I spent a bit of time setting up a few encounters that were more interesting than the average "random encounter," but using the monsters on the random encounter table as a baseline. So, for example, I put together an encounter with a family of trolls returning to their lair after a hunt, complete with a tactical map, stat blocks, and so on, and then organized those encounters by CR. It improved the quality of my random encounters markedly, and adding things like "the crumbling ruin of a tower infested by undead" interspersed with the exploration kep my players interest up.
Kingmaker for 6 thread This is for 6 players, at a 20 point buy. Since your guys are "higher/better" it is a good starting point, and may even be enough.
Combat Manager This is a new, but pretty good Combat Manager, and in my case, since I use PCGen, it imports the character files directly as well as has all (almost all) the monsters built in.
Others have given links to spreadsheets, but just take a look thru the Kingmaker forum and there is lots of data to help.
-- david
Papa.DRB
Alright, so I figured out some of the problems:
Kingmaker requires ALOT of extra book keeping, which we lack general organization. Is there a place I can buy like a Kingmaker kit? Something with the hex maps, ways to mark where we've been, where stuff has been placed, etc? I think that would make it a bit easier. I see GM decks, but don't know what they're used for. Maybe an improvement on bookkeeping would help.
Also, about the xp...so they're halfway through level 7 (unless I move the xp bar up) which puts them pretty high to go through KM 3, which is why I was going to do a custom scenario. Should I just cut xp from KM 3 then, or what? They need to be level 10 I think for KM 3, so Ihave to regulate how much xp they get.
There is an excel sheet that helps with the book keeping for the kingdom.
Click here for the Excel document.
AFAIK this is the latest upgrade. It also includes any corrections that were put on the boards to account for errors in the book.
Just some random thoughs from someone almost at the end of book 2.
-If your players don´t want to go and explore, either punish them by giving their kingdom some kind of penality the can end if the solve a problem in an undiscovered hex - or bait them with rumors of resources or loot.
-If you have more than 4 players, preparation and time management are key. I bought the combat tracker years ago, and it´s a great investment. I usually delegate tracking ini to one of my players.
Everyone should have their stuff prepaired, that means the summoner has modified statistics for almost all his monster, everyone rolls attack roll, confirmation roll and the damage rolls at the same time (differently coloured dice). A slow combat is usually never fun for the players.
-If your players find the fights to easy, it might be usefull to ad an extra monster, and use the advanced template on pretty much everything. You have to be carefull though, I added an ongre magus to after they found the trolls and tryed to smoke them out. A flying invisible creature that heals .... tough one.
-ad in some social encounters, maybe let them roleplay a monthly audience for all those interested in the stolen lands: ambassadors, traders, bounty hunters, envoys from the other river kingdoms, a loyal pig farmer complayning that the party fighter is lying drunk in his pig sty.....
- The random kingdom event table will help you to keep things spicy
- Your PCs can hire people to explore their kingdom if the don´t wish to do it - of course there is a chance that they will have to head out to find the missing group
- do not be afraid to change stuff your group won´t accept, if the adventure has a scene everyone in the group won´t like - cut it out or change it! You know your group better than any designer ever could.
-If you have the time: Prepare handouts, maybe some cryptic notes, of half finished letters for the next adventures?
Get the map Folio either as physical product or as download, I prepared a self made map for my players and lamiated it, and I put the map folio map into two giant picture frames.
-Talk to your playes what they would like to do with their kingdom an plan ahead
-I introduced some early sub plots, I introduced my players to their charming neightbor in the south by challenging a retired swordlord in their service to a duel.
-If everything else fails cheat - if it results in your players having fun - well done ^^
I'm running a Kingmaker game where we don't really have time to do hex-by-hex exploration (it's an online IRC-based game), so I've distilled the adventures into the key plotted points and we're using the Fast XP track (since I'm basically gutting the adventures of exploration, and thus much of the XP to be gained.)
You can do this in your own group as well!
Varnhold Vanishing has run great so far this way, as it's the most linear/railroady of the adventures - though I suspect that Blood for Blood will as well. Just put your kingdoms in the background instead of having your players deal with the kingdom growth aspect.
As to your group wanting to explore Golarion... this really isn't the AP for that. Your group should've been told ahead of time this was the "You get to build a kingdom!" AP, and not the "You get to go off and explore Golarion!" AP. Since the former clearly says "you need to stay in one general location", after all.
If they don't want to play that game... well, maybe you shouldn't be playing Kingmaker.
I'm focusing heavily on adding some sub-plots and changing some things up.
As for the fact they might be playing the wrong AP, I picked the AP. I figured the group would enjoy it and so far they have, but there are some things that need to be changed. It isn't like they hate the game, there's just some changes. I've noticed some of the problems I have others have had as well. When two players make all the kingdom building rules and the rest stay back bored, this seems to be common.
But, there's also alot of rules in the last KM module about exploring and fighting other countries and such. And a bit of a "side quest" for acquiring new customs/technology from Numeria isn't out of place. They like fantasy, but we've been playing fantasy for years and would love to add some extra stuff to spice it up. The possibilities of Numeria's Gear Legion and whatnot offers alot of different things that could easily change the pacing/technology of the setting and bring new elements to it while maintaining the core.
Another question: Why doesn't Nyrissa attempt to subdue one of the PCs by manipulation like she did some of the bandits? I know she's a hands off type villian till the last chapter, but wouldn't it make sense for her to attempt to woo a particular party member?
Also, what about Chorol? There's alot of really higher level story potential lying within Kingmaker that really brought alot of attention to my players. (The Half-dragon is playing a descendent of Chorol after all)
Choral the Conquerer: I plan to let him come out out to play once the revolution has already begun and armies clash on the battlefield.
Using his as a subplot could distract your players from the real threat.Nyrissa: She plans to use Irovetti to accomplish hear goal, and maybe she is to busy with her plan.
I'm focusing heavily on adding some sub-plots and changing some things up.
As for the fact they might be playing the wrong AP, I picked the AP. I figured the group would enjoy it and so far they have, but there are some things that need to be changed. It isn't like they hate the game, there's just some changes. I've noticed some of the problems I have others have had as well. When two players make all the kingdom building rules and the rest stay back bored, this seems to be common.
But, there's also alot of rules in the last KM module about exploring and fighting other countries and such. And a bit of a "side quest" for acquiring new customs/technology from Numeria isn't out of place. They like fantasy, but we've been playing fantasy for years and would love to add some extra stuff to spice it up. The possibilities of Numeria's Gear Legion and whatnot offers alot of different things that could easily change the pacing/technology of the setting and bring new elements to it while maintaining the core.
Another question: Why doesn't Nyrissa attempt to subdue one of the PCs by manipulation like she did some of the bandits? I know she's a hands off type villian till the last chapter, but wouldn't it make sense for her to attempt to woo a particular party member?
Also, what about Chorol? There's alot of really higher level story potential lying within Kingmaker that really brought alot of attention to my players. (The Half-dragon is playing a descendent of Chorol after all)
Nyrissa doesn't tangle with the PCs primarily because she has already done all of that 'brand' of leg work before the campaign even begins. She initially doesn't even know that they exist, and by the time she does her other minions - known quantities instead of the unknowns that are the PCs - are already in play and doing what she set in motion years ago.
Choral the Conqueror is a "post KM" BBEG 'as written'. However, you can certainly mix in elements of the brewing civil war to their north, unveiling Choral at the appropriate moment.
Numerian stuff is not even revealed as a big deal until Chapter 5. I would recommend against anything that you're not personally prepared to deal with.
Above all, have fun!
When two players make all the kingdom building rules and the rest stay back bored, this seems to be common.
Ah. Then just do the kingdom building sections by email. The two interested ones can make decisions and the uninterested can monitor, or not, and speak up when they've got a concern. Then do special events at the table.
Ah. Then just do the kingdom building sections by email. The two interested ones can make decisions and the uninterested can monitor, or not, and speak up when they've got a concern. Then do special events at the table.When two players make all the kingdom building rules and the rest stay back bored, this seems to be common.
This.
Ah. Then just do the kingdom building sections by email. The two interested ones can make decisions and the uninterested can monitor, or not, and speak up when they've got a concern. Then do special events at the table.When two players make all the kingdom building rules and the rest stay back bored, this seems to be common.
Yup. I've only got one player who is really interested in the kingdom building and we do almost all of it online. During our live sessions, he discusses with the other players what sorts of things the kingdom should be focussing on, in which direction they should expand, etc. but then takes care of all the details himself away from the table. That way, everyone else *feels* like the kingdom is in the background but it's still quite unique to our group and everyone wins.
Are there stats for Choral the Conqueror?
Also, wow. I'm actually amazed at how simple and good that advice is. Do it via email, that's a brilliant idea. I'm going to use that. Thanks again, you guys have been incredibly helpful.
So now I have one more question:
It's memorial day weekend, the Oracle, The Paladin, and the Barbarian are out. So that leaves me the two clerics and the sorcerer, and they still want to play and hate one shots.Do I keep running Kingmaker and hope they live, or do I run a module, or what? I'm sure others have come across this problem. I'd break for the weekend, but I'm stuck working and the others don't have anything else to do. Do you guys know of anything good to fill the spot that doesn't cause me to murder my already overpowered group or give them too much xp?
The three of them won't be so overpowered. Let them play - and let the dice fall where they may.
Choral's "book" stats are in the back of Chapter 6.
Agree. A socerer and two clerics party is definitely doable. They'll have to change tactics a bit to account for the lack of melee brutes, but thesheer amount of spellpower they have available should carry them through OK.
If you really think they need a meat shield, give them an NPC to go along, perhaps Kesten Garess or the fallen paladin from book 1, whose name escapes me for the moment. Advance him to an appropriate level and run him as a GM character.
Shouldn't be necessary, though.
You guys are awesome.
Good idea. They have the Raging Owlbear to contend with, and then they start Varnhold Vanishing. I hope they go straight to Varnhold with only three of them. Nah...that'd be mean...
Wait. The Raging Owlbear might prove a pretty big challenge as it is a grapple monster. Looking at the Obituaries thread on Kingmaker, it seems like it is one that's killed a goodly number of PCs, although no TPKs.
I'd let them take about a dozen 2nd level warriors with them. They're simple enough to use and will give the casters time to shine.
Are there stats for Choral the Conqueror?
Also, wow. I'm actually amazed at how simple and good that advice is. Do it via email, that's a brilliant idea. I'm going to use that. Thanks again, you guys have been incredibly helpful.
So now I have one more question:
It's memorial day weekend, the Oracle, The Paladin, and the Barbarian are out. So that leaves me the two clerics and the sorcerer, and they still want to play and hate one shots.Do I keep running Kingmaker and hope they live, or do I run a module, or what? I'm sure others have come across this problem. I'd break for the weekend, but I'm stuck working and the others don't have anything else to do. Do you guys know of anything good to fill the spot that doesn't cause me to murder my already overpowered group or give them too much xp?
My suggestion: give them a fun adventures in the city, or if the really want to explore, let some of the kingdom npcs come with them.
You guys are awesome.
Good idea. They have the Raging Owlbear to contend with, and then they start Varnhold Vanishing. I hope they go straight to Varnhold with only three of them. Nah...that'd be mean...
The Owlbear could cripple them - but if the sorcerer can cast fly, it´s like shooting fish in a barrel.
Varnhold with 2 clerics, could be done^^. If you don´t want to start the next adventure without a full group, run some kingdom events from the table. Chasing an arsonist in the streets of their city could be entertaining, especially since the "adventureres" have a pretty good reason to keep the damage to a minimum.
Yeah, roll a few random kingdom events and expand them to give you 2 or 3 urban based things to deal with. the three PCs can always call on guards, hire adventures in an inn, etc if they need help.
I recently had some alu-demons attack a barracks (by disguise, charms etc). it was a tough challenge weeding them out as no one new who anyone was, so excellent rp oppurtunities but wasnt tough 'fight wise'
You have a small party with 3 people with +ve Charisma scores (i assume), so go make use of that