| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
I've been reading a lot of posts on metamagic and spell slots recently, including the horrendous 150+ poster on slots from ability scores.
The consensus is that since metamagic'd spells are not really higher level than their base, a spellcaster who has high-level slots that he can't fill due to a low ability score can fill them with metamagic'd low level spells. I.e. a INT-11 wiz3 could use his single lvl2 slot to prepare and cast a metamagic'd level 0 or 1 spell (assuming the "slot" taken is 2nd level).
This is based off of two quotes from the PRD:
A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower levels.
Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.
Now, I have two questions regarding this interpretation. I suspect the discussion will lead to it, despite being the consensus, being considered incorrect.
1) How does this interact with the following quote (also from feats chapter under metamagic, but further down):
In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell. (emphasis mine)
So even though the wiz can't cast a level 2 spell, he can cast one that is "prepared and cast" as a level 2 spell?
2) How does this interact with potions? Using the above rules, let's say I want potions of enlarge for my fighter. I can buy a CL-1 potion of enlarge person (1 minute) for 50 gp. I can buy a CL-3 potion of enlarge person (3 minutes) for 150 gp. Or I can buy a CL-3 extended potion of enlarge person (6 minutes) for... 150 gp? Really? After all, it's "really" level 1, with a CL 3 only so that the caster would have access to the level 2 slot. But once you're at a CL that allows metamagic, there's no reason not to metamagic unless it takes you above the level cap for the type of item...
Items use the slot. You still get the slots, even though you're inadequate to cast the required level of spell, so you can use metamagic to fill them with more effective versions of the lower spells.
So a CL4 Enlarge Person (extended, 2nd level spell slot) = 4x2x50=400gp, 200gp to make.
My reading of RAW and interpretation of RAI is that the low int wizard could indeed use his higher level slots for metamagic enhanced spells.
As a GM I'd find this concept to be quite intriguing. I'm tempted to try it out myself.
I see no reason to further punish a wizard with a low int... his DC is going to suck, his spell selection is going to be crazy limited, he will lack bonus spells....
Geez, give the dude SOMETHING.
Items use the slot. You still get the slots, even though you're inadequate to cast the required level of spell, so you can use metamagic to fill them with more effective versions of the lower spells.
So a CL4 Enlarge Person (extended, 2nd level spell slot) = 4x2x50=400gp, 200gp to make.
Compare to PRD: http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/potions.html
"The price of a potion is equal to the level of the spell × the creator's caster level × 50 gp"That's not the slot, that's the level of the spell. Is there something in the rules that I'm missing?
My reading of RAW and interpretation of RAI is that the low int wizard could indeed use his higher level slots for metamagic enhanced spells.
Your reading of RAW even with the quote 1 that I put above?
2) How does this interact with potions? Using the above rules, let's say I want potions of enlarge for my fighter. I can buy a CL-1 potion of enlarge person (1 minute) for 50 gp. I can buy a CL-3 potion of enlarge person (3 minutes) for 150 gp. Or I can buy a CL-3 extended potion of enlarge person (6 minutes) for... 150 gp? Really? After all, it's "really" level 1, with a CL 3 only so that the caster would have access to the level 2 slot. But once you're at a CL that...
A metamagiced spell is treated as its beginning level to determine the effects of the spell - duration, save DC, damage, how hard it is to dispel, etc. However, it is treated as the higher spell level when determining what spell slot it uses, or item pricing.
A potion of Extended Enlarge Person is priced according to a 2nd level spell (1 level for the Enlarge Person, 1 level for the Extend spell), and has a minimum caster level of 3 (the minimum to cast a 2nd level spell, so costs 300 gold (150 gold to make). But in all other ways, it is still a first level spell - it has a duration of 3 minutes (6 minutes because of the Extend Spell), is treated as first level when someone tries to use Dispel Magic on it, etc.
Wait, does this mean that a wand of, say, Empowered Burning Hands has a save DC of 11 because it's a 1st level spell and can be created with a minimum Int of 11, despite being a 3rd level wand?
Wait, does this mean that a wand of, say, Empowered Burning Hands has a save DC of 11 because it's a 1st level spell and can be created with a minimum Int of 11, despite being a 3rd level wand?
Yes. It is priced using a 3rd level spell, but in all other ways, it is still a first level spell.
A metamagiced spell is treated as its beginning level to determine the effects of the spell - duration, save DC, damage, how hard it is to dispel, etc. However, it is treated as the higher spell level when determining what spell slot it uses, or item pricing.
Hey Jeraa, thanks for the responses. Do you have a source for the item pricing, above?
Can you use a metamagic feat when creating items?
Yes; calculate the magic item’s price using the new spell level (as adjusted by the metamagic feat). A wand of maximized cure light wounds, for example, would cost 21,000 gp (spell level 4 times caster level 7 times 750 gp). You couldn’t make a wand of maximized cure moderate wounds, because that’s a 5th-level spell, which is beyond the spell level limit of a wand.
If you’re not using the spell’s level to calculate the price, remember to estimate the price using the improved potency of the effect for comparison (rather than using the non-metamagic version of the spell).
Granted, that quote is from the 3.5 Dungeons and Dragons FAQ, but since 3.5 is what Pathfinder is based on, it is a really good bet it still works the same.
Granted, that quote is from the 3.5 Dungeons and Dragons FAQ, but since 3.5 is what Pathfinder is based on, it is a really good bet it still works the same.
Ok. Mind hitting the FAQ button on this so that it gets added to the Pathfinder FAQ and people don't have to look through 3.5 stuff?
My reading of RAW and interpretation of RAI is that the low int wizard could indeed use his higher level slots for metamagic enhanced spells.Your reading of RAW even with the quote 1 that I put above?
Yes, because the RAW is inconsistent. I believe the final quote you put above is the RAW that should be given an errata.
Wait, does this mean that a wand of, say, Empowered Burning Hands has a save DC of 11 because it's a 1st level spell and can be created with a minimum Int of 11, despite being a 3rd level wand?Yes. It is priced using a 3rd level spell, but in all other ways, it is still a first level spell.
A first level spell which has a caster level of 5 (minimum level for craft wand), so that wand will have a save DC of 11, but will do 1.5x 5d4 damage (save for half).
2) How does this interact with potions? Using the above rules, let's say I want potions of enlarge for my fighter. I can buy a CL-1 potion of enlarge person (1 minute) for 50 gp. I can buy a CL-3 potion of enlarge person (3 minutes) for 150 gp. Or I can buy a CL-3 extended potion of enlarge person (6 minutes) for... 150 gp? Really? After all, it's "really" level 1, with a CL 3 only so that the caster would have access to the level 2 slot. But once you're at a CL that...
A metamagiced spell is treated as its beginning level to determine the effects of the spell - duration, save DC, damage, how hard it is to dispel, etc. However, it is treated as the higher spell level when determining what spell slot it uses, or item pricing.
A potion of Extended Enlarge Person is priced according to a 2nd level spell (1 level for the Enlarge Person, 1 level for the Extend spell), and has a minimum caster level of 3 (the minimum to cast a 2nd level spell, so costs 300 gold (150 gold to make). But in all other ways, it is still a first level spell - it has a duration of 3 minutes (6 minutes because of the Extend Spell), is treated as first level when someone tries to use Dispel Magic on it, etc.
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I get that she quoted it how it should be. I disagree that there's anything in the core rulebook to tell anyone that's how it works.
+1I get that she quoted it how it should be. I disagree that there's anything in the core rulebook to tell anyone that's how it works.
That actually got me thinking - where does it say that you can have metamagiced potions/wands at all? I know that they exist, but I can't find any rules allowing for their creation in the first place. So it'd be perfectly reasonable to say that they can't be created, and thus it's a moot question.
That actually got me thinking - where does it say that you can have metamagiced potions/wands at all? I know that they exist, but I can't find any rules allowing for their creation in the first place. So it'd be perfectly reasonable to say that they can't be created, and thus it's a moot question.
In the description of what a metamagic feat is. Page 113 of the Core Rulebook, under Magic Items and Metamagic Spells.
Magic Items and Metamagic Spells: With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell's higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn't need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell.
That actually got me thinking - where does it say that you can have metamagiced potions/wands at all? I know that they exist, but I can't find any rules allowing for their creation in the first place. So it'd be perfectly reasonable to say that they can't be created, and thus it's a moot question.In the description of what a metamagic feat is. Page 113 of the Core Rulebook, under Magic Items and Metamagic Spells.
Magic Items and Metamagic Spells: With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell's higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn't need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell.
Ah, thank you. I didn't think to look there - I was looking at all the item rules. I think that pretty much answers the pricing question. If the level limit is based on the higher spell level, then the price should be too.
Ah, thank you. I didn't think to look there - I was looking at all the item rules. I think that pretty much answers the pricing question. If the level limit is based on the higher spell level, then the price should be too.
I'm not convinced that's a strong argument. Reasonable, yes.
But compared to someone saying "here's the price for a potion, which says 'caster level', here's the part on metamagic feats that says 'not really a higher-level spell', here's the part that says I can use metamagic on potions - oh, and by the way, I can't metamagic them up to a 'pretend' level above 4"... I'd have to say the other person isn't wrong, by RAW. I can't imagine RAI being anything other than what you and Jeraa have said. Yet I'm not at all convinced RAW says it.
Ah, thank you. I didn't think to look there - I was looking at all the item rules. I think that pretty much answers the pricing question. If the level limit is based on the higher spell level, then the price should be too.I'm not convinced that's a strong argument. Reasonable, yes.
But compared to someone saying "here's the price for a potion, which says 'caster level', here's the part on metamagic feats that says 'not really a higher-level spell', here's the part that says I can use metamagic on potions - oh, and by the way, I can't metamagic them up to a 'pretend' level above 4"... I'd have to say the other person isn't wrong, by RAW. I can't imagine RAI being anything other than what you and Jeraa have said. Yet I'm not at all convinced RAW says it.
I think this is starting to enter "But the dead condition doesn't say you can't take actions" territory. I certainly agree that it should be more explicit, but sometimes you just need to apply common sense. If you want a first level spell in potion form, it costs 50g. If you want a stronger version of that spell, you can apply metamagic feats to it, as long as it doesn't raise the level over the limit for a potion. It also provides more benefit than the base form. Therefore, you should price it as per the higher spell level.
The alternative is that every single first level potion should be empowered, and every second level potion should be extended, because that wouldn't increase the cost.