Non-combat / "challenge" XP awards


Rules Questions


krome wrote:


Yes certainly! You can award XP for a ROLEplaying encounter as well. Combat is not the only way to earn XP. ANY time there is a challenge to be overcome, either with combat, skills, or roleplaying, you should award XP.

Something I've long wondered - should researching a new spell count as a "challenge" for a Wizard? CR=the spell's level, maybe, or the minimum caster level needed?

That's one thing that bothers me - we have NPCs of advanced levels, but the basic assumption is that XP are gained through adventuring (the Challenge of Champions articles being in the minority). More succinctly, you only get XP when you risk your neck. If that were true, these advanced NPCs would all be retired adventurers, and that many adventurers would surely have erased any opportunities for new adventures years ago.

I would submit researching new spells and identifying magic items as being opportunities for non-adventuring characters to gain XP. Does anyone else have any ideas for other non-combat chances to gain XP?

(Partly, this is me trying to figure out how to justify the existence of *NON*-adventuring NPCs in my campaign world.)

Paizo Employee Creative Director

In my world view... XPs are only earned by the PCs. NPCs gain levels as the result of long years of doing what they do or sudden flashes of insight or taking part in wars or becoming king or being visited with visions from gods or whatever—in other words, NPCs who aren't closely tied to the PCs as cohorts gain levels arbitrarily when the GM decides they do.

The PCs are among the most unique creatures in your campaign. They break the rules more than they follow them.

As for awarding XP for a PC researching a new spell... I'd either split that XP up among ALL the players, or I'd make sure to offer non-wizards options to earn an equivalent amount of XP doing similar off-time things, like building magic items, running kingdoms, going on thieving missions, doing missionary work, entertaining a tavern with song and dance, and so on.


I usually assign RP encounters a CR, and award XP based on the CR and how well they did.

For things like researching a spell, I assign a CR as well, and award XP on how well the person did.

Example, I set up an RP situation where the team can either talk their way into the village, or they can force their way in. If they talk their way in, they get XP equal to 1/2 to 1.5 times the CR (depending on how well they did, making a dozen new friends is worth more than bullying their way in short of violence).

For researching the spell, I let the player describe what he's doing to research it. If he comes up with interesting things that have game effects (like asking everyone to detour to a city to research in a mage guild) then he get's more than if he says 'I uh, i just work on it'.


James Jacobs wrote:


As for awarding XP for a PC researching a new spell... I'd either split that XP up among ALL the players, or I'd make sure to offer non-wizards options to earn an equivalent amount of XP doing similar off-time things, like building magic items, running kingdoms, going on thieving missions, doing missionary work, entertaining a tavern with song and dance, and so on.

While James and I disagree on the world building, extremely so, this I think is excellent advice. Everyone should have opportunities for extra XP through RP.


I came up with a non-combat challenge which used combat mechanics with worked pretty well, I posted about it here

Conclusion I came to about NPCs getting XP which locked it into proper perspective for me - XP awards are a reward given to Players for good play.

The players gets to allocate the XP to level up their character, but NPCs aren't part of that system. They're not players and don't have players running them, so don't get awards for good play.

To a Player an NPC with the party is the same as a magic sword, it might help with the encounter but it doesn't get a share of the XP.

NPCs are the GM's, so level up wholly at the whim of the GM (and/or by the special rules such as Leadership and animal companions and such).


James, you essentially gave me the same answer my wife gave - only you were more, um, diplomatic about it. :D She says it's the writer in me, demanding to know the "how s/he got here"s to all my characters, PC or NPC. I dislike the arbitrary "because I said so" method of setting NPC levels (even though I use it frequently on my children!) because - *to me* - it lacks the "organic" feel of a setting that has grown from a seed into what we see now, as characters.

But, then, I've been known to take so long developing game-worlds, that they never get played in.

So it seems to me that NPCs the physical classes would be younger than NPCs of the more mental classes, given equal levels. (just as an aside)

Hm - surfacing memory. GURPS actually had a method of tracking time spent doing something professionally to count toward increasing that skill. That's effectively the same as saying "NPCs gain levels as the result of long years of doing what they do." Of course, now I want to figure out some sort of guidelines on how long it would take an NPC "doing what they do" to level up.

And I'm not at all adverse to allowing for other N/PCs to gain XP via non-combat "one-on-one"s. My main interest in this was specifically aimed at NPCs, but I'm not at all adverse to letting PCs partake, as well.


Doc_Outlands wrote:


Hm - surfacing memory. GURPS actually had a method of tracking time spent doing something professionally to count toward increasing that skill. That's effectively the same as saying "NPCs gain levels as the result of long years of doing what they do." Of course, now I want to figure out some sort of guidelines on how long it would take an NPC "doing what they do" to level up.

Personally, the way I tend to handle it in game is assume the following :

You get XP for learning. As you get higher, there is less and less you can learn from things that taught you in the past.

So, for example, the young buck warrior who just signs up with the city guard learns quickly, going from level 1 to level 2 rather quickly, busting heads with drunks, dealing with pickpockets and sneak thieves, etc. However, about level 5 he starts getting to the point where patrol work doesn't challenge anymore (IE: All he get's are CR 1 encounters). And I stop awarding XP for encounters more than 3 levels below the level of the character. At this point, he either slips into a routine and spends the rest of his life going with the motion, or he get's bored and challenges himself. He multiclasses into expert instead, and takes a job as an investigator, not a beat cop. Then he starts learning again. But eventually he hit's level 8, and all he's getting are CR 4 encounters, and he's in a holding pattern again.

This, to me, works well because it explains why NPCs tend to be lower than PCs after awhile (they aren't constantly challenging themselves), but it still leaves it logical for replacement characters to exist around the corner. It also explains why there are powerful NPCs and Villains in the world.


Asphesteros, thanks for the link to your system. I'm going to save it off for later use and to see what other interesting twists your approach might inspire.

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