Not trying to turn this into a "pathfinders wrestling rules" book or anything, but the text in the players handbook on Grapple/Pin leaves me a bit to be desired as far as ruling help.
Scenario: Captured Party, stripped of weapons and armor, are now attempting to break out. First obstacle: their Ogre Jailor. Being as he's armed and they're not, they resort to immobilization.
Party warrior announces a Grapple/Pin Maneuver on the Unaware Jailor in a Surprise Round. Roll is made and his CMB+Roll beats the Ogre's CMD...Grapple Attack successful.
Questions:
1) Is the "Pin" Part of that maneuver "automatic"? Does the PC simply get to apply the "pinned" condition simply because his grapple was successful or is there another CM Roll required? If another maneuver, can this be applied on the same round or is this on a different round? If another roll required, does the penalty for Grappled apply?
2) Assuming a completely bare, very large room, the only thing the ogre would be "pinned" to would be the floor...does "pinned" automatically assume the "prone" condition as well? Is this on a "case by case" basis? Is that chosen by the Player or the DM or is it "scenario" based?
3) Does the Grapple/Pin break happen automatically or is it considered an Action? i.e. Does the Ogre automatically get a chance to break the grapple once it's applied or does the roll against the CMD Constitute the "chance" for the ogre to have not become grappled and break is a completely different action? On a surprise round should I allow an attempt to "break" or if this is considered an "action" should it be disallowed till next round, even though no real "action" is required?
4) Putting this all together if the Grapple is successful and if pin is applied automatically, and the ogre is pinned to the floor, then the Ogre currently has 2 conditions currently set by a single PC Action: Pinned and Prone, and the Ogre is still without weapon (it's not been drawn yet but is attached to his belt). So at this point the ogre has 3 actions to perform to get ready for the next round: Break the Grapple/Pin, Stand up and Draw his weapon...
According to rules:
* Escape a Grapple is a Standard Action (I assume this is the same for pinned).
* Stand Up from Prone is a Move Action
* Draw a Weapon is considered a "Move" action but can be combined with a move action in this case.
Given the surprise round does this make the NPC ogre a round behind? Even assuming a failed grapple/pin attempt the next round, the ogre still needs to break grapple (standard action) and stand (move action) and potentially draw (combined with move action) wasting his entire next turn and allowing the PC's to perform it all over again? Does this setup an unwinnable condition where the Ogre is perpetually "out of the fight" simply trying to recover (and if so is this what is intended by the rules?). By what I'm reading it looks like once grappled / pinned you would have to break and recover on one round (avoiding being hit by a grapple/pin attempt that round) and then avoid AGAIN being hit by a SECOND grapple/pin before being able to attack...in other words you'd have to be able to dodge 2 attempts to recover from each success. (Though I guess the second grapple/pin in the cycle would be punctuated by an attack of opportunity by my now armed Ogre).
What part of the above would any of you rule allowed during the surprise round (if any) and what part must wait till the next round of combat?
Assuming you are ruling this at the end of the round (assuming the Grapple break roll is successful) what would be your "final status" for the surprise round? (What conditions apply to each of the two combatants and what actions is each capable of in round 1?)
The scenario is certainly bad for the PCs (the weapon the ogre carries is damaging enough that it's possible to one shot some of the weaker PCs). On one hand, I don't want to make the encounter too easy, but on the other hand I suspect the PC's don't need bad ruling in this case: It will likely be challenging enough.
--Illydth
Go check the Pathfinder rules online (www.d20pfsrd.com) under grappling and you'll find an INCREDIBLE pdf easy-to-follow flow chart about grappling. It's done miracles in my game.
Ultradan
Thanks VERY much for the Grapple Information. The flow charts there do in fact answer a few of the questions posted.
I still, however, am a bit confused/concerned with some of the information above.
Specifically:
* Following the flowchart it looks like applying "pinned" comes the round after Grapple. In other words you must grapple on round 1, be maintaining the grapple by your turn in round 2 to apply pinned...am I reading that right?
* Does "pinned" also initiate "prone" in the case where the attacker chooses (or is this DM / Scenario choice) to pin the defender to the ground? This would logically seem to be the case but maybe not intended by the rules since the second status condition is not mentioned in the rules anywhere.
I do see, according to the flow charts, where, if they are two different round actions, this gets past the "double round" issue I mention above however since grapple must exist on the target for a round before Pin can be put in place.
--Illydth
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Thanks VERY much for the Grapple Information. The flow charts there do in fact answer a few of the questions posted.
I still, however, am a bit confused/concerned with some of the information above.
Specifically:
* Following the flowchart it looks like applying "pinned" comes the round after Grapple. In other words you must grapple on round 1, be maintaining the grapple by your turn in round 2 to apply pinned...am I reading that right?
Yes, it takes a full round to pin a target. The first round you initiate the grapple and apply the grappled condition. On the second round, if the target hasn't broken free and you beat their CMD again you can apply the Pinned condition.
* Does "pinned" also initiate "prone" in the case where the attacker chooses (or is this DM / Scenario choice) to pin the defender to the ground? This would logically seem to be the case but maybe not intended by the rules since the second status condition is not mentioned in the rules anywhere.
No, there are plenty of ways to hold someone immobilized tightly without holding them down on the ground - think of a bearhug or full nelson hold.
Thanks much folks for the clarification! :)
Go check the Pathfinder rules online (www.d20pfsrd.com) under grappling and you'll find an INCREDIBLE pdf easy-to-follow flow chart about grappling. It's done miracles in my game.
Ultradan
Those grapple flow charts are amazing! Thank you for pointing them out!
But there are at least a couple of missing or incorrect pieces of information. (Missing mention of special grapple maneuvers, which is forgivable, incorrect on stating it's a +4 to maintain, it's a +5 to maintain)
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Here's another question: when the defender in a Grapple is pinned, and he rolls high enough on his Combat Maneuver to beat the attackers CMD, does he break free of the grapple entirely, or just from the pinned condition?
Since the attackers need to through "Grappled" to get to "Pinned" I have been ruling that a pinned character who gets free just goes back to "Grappled". I have been requiring a second action to break the grapple, after the pinned condition is ended. However, unless I missed it, it looks like the Rules As Written allows a Pinned creature to get completely free in one action.
I prefer the two-step process both ways, as it allows for slightly more dramatic grappling.
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I prefer the two-step process both ways, as it allows for slightly more dramatic grappling.
3.5 was pretty explicit that the two step process was how it works, but as you noticed PF isn't so clear and so it seems that RAW if you escape the pin you escape the grapple completely, and as its easier to break out when pinned as opposed to just grappled it best to let yourself get pinned!
3.5 was pretty explicit that the two step process was how it works, but as you noticed PF isn't so clear and so it seems that RAW if you escape the pin you escape the grapple completely, and as its easier to break out when pinned as opposed to just grappled it best to let yourself get pinned!
how do you figure? neither your CMB nor the grappler's CMD changes. Under Pinned it says "you loose your Dex bonus to AC" but the CMD section says that any "PENALTIES TO AC" also apply to CMD. Since loosing DEX is not a penalty CMD stays the same i.e. CMD -2 (from -4 grapple). CMD section does say Flat-footed creatures don't add DEX to CMD but Pin section doesn't say Flat-footed, just no DEX to AC so I would argue doesn't apply.
Conversely, the CMB of the Grappler goes up +5 b/c of circumstance bonus for rounds after first and your CMD goes down -4 from AC penalty from Pinned condition plus adds swaps out -4 DEX from grappled for no DEX to CMD at all b/c Flat-footed. Also if you get pinned and the grappler has Greater Grapple, he'll have you tied up and helpless before you get another turn.
EDIT: also I would say breaking pin just moves back to grapple
Here's another question: when the defender in a Grapple is pinned, and he rolls high enough on his Combat Maneuver to beat the attackers CMD, does he break free of the grapple entirely, or just from the pinned condition?
There's nothing that says otherwise, so you escape the grapple completely.
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how do you figure?
Escaping the Grappled Condition
Either:Victim's CMB versus foe's CMD-2
As both parties are under the Grappled condition, both suffer a -4 penalty to Dex, which results in a -2 penalty to the grappler's CMD, but no effect on the victim's CMB, assuming he doesn't have agile manouevres feat.
...or...
Victim's Escape Artist skill-2 versus foe's CMD-2
As both parties are under the Grappled condition, both suffer a -4 penalty to Dex, which results in a -2 penalty to the grappler's CMD, and a -2 penalty to the victim's Escape Artist check.
Escaping the Pinned Condition
Either:
Victim's CMB versus foe's CMD-2 or CMD-Dex Bonus whichever is lower
The foe has the Grappled condition losing -4 to Dexterity and so a -2 to Dex Mod. In addition he loses his Dex bonus to AC (which also applies to his CMD). So if the grappler's Dex modifier after the -4 penalty to the score is a zero or negative, use original CMD-2, if grappler's Dex modifier is still a positive after the -4 to the score use original CMD less normal Dex Bonus.
...or...
Victim's Escape Artist skill versus foe's foe's CMD-2 or CMD-Dex Bonus whichever is lower
As above use the lower of the grappler's CMD-2 or CMD-Dex bonus, but as the victim is no longer suffering the Grappled condition, just the Pinned condition, they do not suffer a -4 dexterity penalty and so their Escape Artist skill is unmodified.
So, admittedly there are some scenarios where it is no easier to escape a pin than a grapple (where foe has Dex of 15 or less and victim is using CMB to escape) but in all other scenarios it is easier to escape when pinned because the victim's Escape Artist skill is higher when pinned, and / or the DC may be lower (if the foe had a Dex of 16 or more).
Hopefully I have explained that okay, please let me know if I haven't or if I have got anything wrong.
Pin section doesn't say Flat-footed, just no DEX to AC so I would argue doesn't apply.
Has this been errataed then? As in my copy of the PF RPG it says "A pinned creature cannot move and is flatfooted." In addition they take another -4 to AC (and thus CMD, but CMB is unaffected).
EDIT: also I would say breaking pin just moves back to grapple
Unfortunately, whilst that may have been the intention it isn't explicit in the rules with the Pinned condition stating "A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat
maneuver check or Escape Artist check." - now if they meant "freeing itself from the pin, but still leaving it grappled" (which isn't really freeing itself IMHO) it should have been made clearer.