Re-Roll Before Results are Revealed and (Mis)fortune Revelation

[E I]

Okay, so I noticed this in the write-up for the dual cursed oracle, where it can get an ability called Misfortune to "force a creature within 30 feet to reroll any one d20 roll that it has just made before the results of the roll are revealed as an immediate action". Now there are other classes and abilities that have similar wording.

My question is, at what point do you consider this to be too late? The name of the feat is supposed to make it seem like this is a bad thing, but presumably you could use this to force an ally to re-roll a bad roll.

For example, Jim the ranger tries to shoot an arrow at Phil the Orc, but his attack roll is only a 3. Before checking against the GM to see whether his attack roll with all it's modifiers, Steve the Oracle forces him to re-roll it, and Jim does much better on his second roll. I think this interpretation is okay by the rules. I think that the same would apply if Jim rolled a 1 as well.

Now let's say Phil the Orc rolls a nat 20. I can't see that because the GM is behind a screen, but I can see the GM pick up his dice and re-roll it. Would this be considered meta-gaming cheese?

[King of Vrock]

With break mechanics like this both you and your GM have to work cooperatively. Let the GM know you may use you Misfortune roll against his monsters attack so they can either tell you the roll or roll in the open. Either way the GM hasn't added in the monsters attack modifier and you don't necessarily know the total. Obviously if you see the die come up high you'll want to use your ability which is perfectly normal.

--Vrock, Paper, Scissors

[Some call me Tim]

E I wrote:

Now let's say Phil the Orc rolls a nat 20. I can't see that because the GM is behind a screen, but I can see the GM pick up his dice and re-roll it. Would this be considered meta-gaming cheese?

That particular case, I would say is to meta-gamey for my taste.

In a broader sense, the problem is you GM rolling behind a screen when you have such an ability. You have no way of knowing if a roll is high or low.

When I GM, only rolls specifically stated as being secret do I roll behind a screen. This is just another good reason to roll in the open.

I consider it too late once the total is calculated. If it is an attack roll. As GM, I roll a 16. You now have to decide if you want to force a re-roll. Once I add the attack bonus of +12. It would be too late as you now your armor class is only 27.

This is where players need to try and not metagame. Once you seen the creature once or twice, its all too easy to reverse engineer the attack bonus and figure out what die roll is needed.

Natural 20's also pose the problem of always been a hit. So, in a way they announce the result before such a feature could kick in as it were. Of course disallowing it too work in such a way would drastically reduce its power.

So, in practice I just allow the use of the power up until damage is revealed. Who knows you might just 'waste' the power when I roll a '1' on the damage. This also requires the GM to provide a pause between the roll and damage being rolled and announced.

Since, I doubt your GM will start rolling in the open. I would suggest that your GM at least allow you to state when you want to use the re-roll power. Such as, 'the first enemy attack roll that is greater than 16.'

[E I]

Some call me Tim wrote:

E I wrote:

Now let's say Phil the Orc rolls a nat 20. I can't see that because the GM is behind a screen, but I can see the GM pick up his dice and re-roll it. Would this be considered meta-gaming cheese?

That particular case, I would say is to meta-gamey for my taste.

In a broader sense, the problem is you GM rolling behind a screen when you have such an ability. You have no way of knowing if a roll is high or low.

When I GM, only rolls specifically stated as being secret do I roll behind a screen. This is just another good reason to roll in the open.

I consider it too late once the total is calculated. If it is an attack roll. As GM, I roll a 16. You now have to decide if you want to force a re-roll. Once I add the attack bonus of +12. It would be too late as you now your armor class is only 27.

This is where players need to try and not metagame. Once you seen the creature once or twice, its all too easy to reverse engineer the attack bonus and figure out what die roll is needed.

Natural 20's also pose the problem of always been a hit. So, in a way they announce the result before such a feature could kick in as it were. Of course disallowing it too work in such a way would drastically reduce its power.

So, in practice I just allow the use of the power up until damage is revealed. Who knows you might just 'waste' the power when I roll a '1' on the damage. This also requires the GM to provide a pause between the roll and damage being rolled and announced.

Since, I doubt your GM will start rolling in the open. I would suggest that your GM at least allow you to state when you want to use the re-roll power. Such as, 'the first enemy attack roll that is greater than 16.'

Good idea.

However, I just realized my metagaming cheese could backfire, since my GM plays with critical fumbles as well, so I could just as well be saving him from a critical fumble.

[Varthanna]

Hey, didnt want to start a new thread but its a bit of a thread-jack.
Misfortune specifies a creature within 30ft. Do you count as a creature within 30ft of yourself?

[Austin Morgan]

For those thinking of using Misfortune on themselves or allies, you might want to read a little closer:

Misfortune wrote:

Misfortune (Su): The witch can cause a creature within 30 feet to suffer grave misfortune for 1 round. Anytime the creature makes an ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, it must roll twice and take the worse result. A Will save negates this hex. At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round. This hex affects all rolls the target must make while it lasts. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.

[Cheapy]

Austin Morgan wrote:

For those thinking of using Misfortune on themselves or allies, you might want to read a little closer:

Misfortune wrote:

Misfortune (Su): The witch can cause a creature within 30 feet to suffer grave misfortune for 1 round. Anytime the creature makes an ability check, attack roll, saving throw, or skill check, it must roll twice and take the worse result. A Will save negates this hex. At 8th level and 16th level, the duration of this hex is extended by 1 round. This hex affects all rolls the target must make while it lasts. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.

Sorry mate, but you may want to take your own advice and read that this thread is about the Oracle's misfortune, not the Witches.

[Varthanna]

Thanks, Cheapy. :)

Yes, we're talking about the ORACLE revelation from Ultimate Magic

[Serisan]

E I wrote:

Now let's say Phil the Orc rolls a nat 20. I can't see that because the GM is behind a screen, but I can see the GM pick up his dice and re-roll it. Would this be considered meta-gaming cheese?

Who rolls attacks behind the screen? There's no need for those to be secret.

[sveden]

Serisan wrote:

E I wrote:

Now let's say Phil the Orc rolls a nat 20. I can't see that because the GM is behind a screen, but I can see the GM pick up his dice and re-roll it. Would this be considered meta-gaming cheese?

Who rolls attacks behind the screen? There's no need for those to be secret.

In a perfect world the GM would have an entire table to themselves and be able to roll behind or not behind the screen when needed. As it stands fitting 6 people around the two tables crammed together in my home does not allow the me to have as much space as I desire.