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Thing is, if I'm a Were creature then I should have more strength to hold things anyway, so I guess I could still go through with it, although I am really tempted to get a Sun Blade on top of the secondary Bastard Sword.Only really gone with pretty strong weapons as I'm worried about damage reduction later on. I mean what's the point in hitting if you can't surpass that? :/
Hama - Lol, maybe I'm used to too much animé then. Thing is I've gone through I think 3 different weapons for my off hand now, and it's just getting silly. The plan is to get a bastard sword to allow myself to use weapon specialization Bastard Sword etc, so it works for both weapons. Though I guess I could make it a magic weapon, meaning it should weigh almost nothing? I've had a +1 one handed Hammer I found, a rapier, and am now using my Fathers Short Sword, and Bastard Sword was my next option, though depending on what this saw weapon is classed as, I might change the bastard sword for that, just so it makes a little more sense.
Also yea, a few people have a little picture next to their names. Maybe it's just to do with post count? :/
Not really..if your strength isn't high, it isn't high, no matter what you are. As i read it, your strength is 13. It is certainly above average considering that most normal people have 10s (halflings 8s) in that stat, but i as a GM wouldn't let you use weapon finesse on an off hand bastard sword. If your GM is ok with that, fine by me. It just seems wrong in a common sense manner.
Magical weapons do not weigh less, they just make hitting things with them more easy and hurt those things more. For less weight, you should use mithrall, which is a special material, but again, it wouldn't change the way a weapon is handled. If it is one-handed it is one-handed...
Also, depending on how many wishes I get, I'd use one of those wishes to free the Genie from his life of wish granting.
Those aren't the genies you're looking for. Genies in PF aren't usually trapped in lamps and forced to grant wishes. Most genies do have the ability to grant wishes, or at least their nobility can if the common version can't.
The reasons genies grant wishes can be manifold.
Also, I really like the Bastard Sword idea, but wondered if I took those feats you listed (most of which I was going to take anyway), what would my attack bonus actually turn into? I know with the Kukri you said the first few attacks could get up to +41 on top of what you roll, but just wondered how different the scores would be whilst wielding two Bastard Swords.
I'd definitely ignore bastard swords. Your damage is already suffering from low strength. You don't want to let your attack suffer, too.
For two-weapon fighting fighters, kukris are nice. Good critical chance.
As a fighter you will have access to penetrating strike as a feat which will let you ignore 5 points of DR and another 5 for the follow up feat. Also I think most can be bypassed with enough plusses later on.
Oh, nice! I just checked them out so thanks for telling me about that. I hadn't come across those feats before. That's something I'm gonna grab at later levels then. Will definitely come in handy!
Lore - Do you know where I can find the Sawtooth Saber? It's not in equipment or magical weapons. Thanks man. :)
Leonal - Does using Power Attack not stop me from using all of my other attacks if I use it? I have a nasty feeling that if I choose to Power Attack or Cleave, it forfeits my other attacks, limiting me to one per round.
Kae - Trouble is I've already changed my feats a few times when I'm not really supposed to. The DM told me to and allowed me to put certain things in, but if I keep doing that, it's unfair on the other players.
I have exotic weapon proficiency Bastard Sword and before that had some kind of a proficiency with a hammer that allowed me to get an additional +1 Attack Bonus for it, so it's been changed once already. Also, is there nothing good natured I can do for a Genie?
Hama - Does that not in fact make me one of the strongest Halflings around? They're funny little guys really.
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Power attack means that you subtract 1 from your attack, and an additional one for every 4 levels you have, to add twice that much to damage, or twice as much multiplied by 1.5 with two handed weapons. You can do full attacks with that. Not with cleave though...
I suggest you sit down and read the rules. Very thoroughly...
Leonal - Does using Power Attack not stop me from using all of my other attacks if I use it? I have a nasty feeling that if I choose to Power Attack or Cleave, it forfeits my other attacks, limiting me to one per round.
Cleave will, Power Attack will not (it's a turn on/off thing). Power Attack will reduce your already reduced attack bonuses due to Two Weapon Fighting though, and is in my experience better used with two handed weapons.
*ninjaed
Leonal - Does using Power Attack not stop me from using all of my other attacks if I use it? I have a nasty feeling that if I choose to Power Attack or Cleave, it forfeits my other attacks, limiting me to one per round.Cleave will, Power Attack will not (it's a turn on/off thing). Power Attack will reduce your already reduced attack bonuses due to Two Weapon Fighting though, and is in my experience better used with two handed weapons.
*ninjaed
Ah right, that's nice to know!
I did really like the idea of Power attack, and although it takes my bonus' down, they're still not bad, so I'll be okay with doing that. :D
I'll just power attack every single round from that point on (unless it's incredibly hard to hit something), as the Archer Monk has the same kind of ability for his arrows, and it makes a huge difference.
Hama - I've read about as much as I can deal with to be honest, but some things will remain unclear to me, no matter how much I go over them. I actually learn better when I'm doing something, rather than reading something. I don't know what it is, but things just don't tend to stick in my head.
I'll probably reference back to this thread a few times before I finally get used to everything. It's just the way I am.
Also, keep in mind that a +3 weapon bypasses cold-iron and silver DR, at +4 it also bypasses adamantine DR, and at +5 it bypasses alignment based DR. That pretty much covers your DR bypassing needs.
There are plenty of ways to handle DR, trying to squeeze an extra d10 instead of d8 makes very little discernable difference.
Removed posts. Please post civilly.
Regarding the sawtooth sabre - it's most recently reprinted in the campaign setting. I do notice however that it now essentially gives the same bonus as "improved balance" in that it only counts as a light weapon for the purposes of two-weapon fighting - it is no longer finessable.
The Aldori dueling blade *is* finessable, but it does not count as a light weapon for the purpose of two-weapon fighting. You "improved balanced" will get around that though. So there's your item. Dual-wield Aldori dueling blades. (The weapon is also in the new campaign setting.)
Regarding the sawtooth sabre - it's most recently reprinted in the campaign setting. I do notice however that it now essentially gives the same bonus as "improved balance" in that it only counts as a light weapon for the purposes of two-weapon fighting - it is no longer finessable.
The Aldori dueling blade *is* finessable, but it does not count as a light weapon for the purpose of two-weapon fighting. You "improved balanced" will get around that though. So there's your item. Dual-wield Aldori dueling blades. (The weapon is also in the new campaign setting.)
So does that mean if I have a +5 weapon, I no longer need to worry about Damage Reduction indefinitely?
If that's the case there's no point in getting those feats that allow me to ignore DR, as I could just save up for/find a +5 weapon and happily deal whatever damage I roll (+ my magical thundering and shocking bonuses).
Dual-wield Aldori dueling blades sound good, but is there a way I can find out about them? We haven't been given anything regarding campaign only weapons, so the only references I have are from Core and APG.
Thanks a lot for all of the help!
Well, I think waiting to see if a Good Genie comes along would be the best and probably safest option, so although I could test things with the Sorcerer (if he grabs the 9th level Wish spell), I think I'd rather do it in a way that's likely to have more success.
Also, depending on how many wishes I get, I'd use one of those wishes to free the Genie from his life of wish granting. In fact I'd probably just ask for two things from him/her, and on the third wish (assuming I might be able to get three), I'd grant him/her their freedom.
Feytharn - Taking into account everything you've suggested to me, I think I'll have to have a chat with the DM tomorrow, asking him what goals would fit into the campaign right now, and what kind of things he'd allow if I got the chance to wish for things.
Lorekeeper - Providing I go along with my above ideas on the wishing front, I guess I'll just have to rework what I'm asking for. I don't want it to be gamebreaking. ;)
Ashiel - I don't think I'll be getting speed weapons now, as the costs for them are very high, but I've just seen the Boots of Speed, so if possible I'll be getting them to give me an extra attack on top of what I can already do.
Also, I really like the Bastard Sword idea, but wondered if I took those feats you listed (most of which I was going to take anyway), what would my attack bonus actually turn into? I know with the Kukri you said the first few attacks could get up to +41 on top of what you roll, but just wondered how different the scores would be whilst wielding two Bastard Swords.
In regard to my stats, I doubt I'll reach 30 Strength. These are my current stats:
Str: 13
Con: 14
Dex: 20
Int: 7
Wis: 10
Cha: 9I'm currently level 4, so put my 1 point into Strength which took it up to 13 from 12. This means if I do reach level 20, I'll have 17 Strength due to the fact I'm going all Strength now, and I'll be saving up for the belt of a Belt of Physical Perfection which could take it up to 23, but I don't see how I could get my...
My biggest concern for you is the fact your Ability Scores aren't set up for what you seem to be doing. The 13 strength can get you enough to get feats that you may need (power attack, for example), but I'd put nothing else in it other than bonuses from magic items. If you have access to wishes (which you can prior to 17th level if you have a wizard in your party) to get inherent modifiers to your ability scores (+5 to everything is essentially a +2.5 modifier). With a +5 inherent, and +6 enhancement, you can reach 24 Strength which isn't terrible for a Dex-based Fighter.
In the meantime, you should probably drop the bastard sword idea. Honestly, bastard swords aren't very good as an actual weapon (maybe if they were just martial, but requiring a feat makes them a useless trap), and they cannot be used with Weapon Finesse, making them hurt your strengths badly. Instead, I'd grab a pair of light, high critical-chance weapons, and be a walking Ginsu set.
If you went with Kurki, they deal 1d4 + strength + other bonuses, are finesse-able, are light weapons so they're dual-wield friendly (saving you 2 feats at least), and their high critical hit chance can be improved to 25% critical chance with either Improved Critical or keen. So instead of Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Bastard Sword), you could pick up Two-Weapon Rend.
Now, as a Fighter, you will eventually have the opportunity to auto-confirm critical hits, as well as increase the damage multiplier of your favorite weapons by 1. If you have a maxed Dexterity, this would be your usual damage at 20th.
Str 24, Dex 34-35 (20 + 4 levels + 6 enhancement +5 inherent).
You get +12 to hit from Dex.
You get +7 to damage from Str.
You get +5 to hit/damage from Weapon Training.
You get +2 to hit from Weapon Focus / Greater Weapon Focus.
You get +4 to damage from Weapon Specialization / Greater Specialization.
You get +5 to hit/damage from +5 weapons.
You get -2 to hit for dual wielding.
You get +1 to hit from haste.
Attack Routine: +42/+42/+42/+37/+37/+32/+32/+27/+27.
Your damage should be: 1d4+21. One out of every 4 attacks, statistically, should land a critical. Each critical will deal 3d4+63 damage, and possibly inflict additional effects (if you have Critical feats).
In addition, your to-hit chances are pretty good, and if you land a hit with both weapons in a round, you automatically deal an extra 1d10+10 damage (average 15) from two weapon rend.
Against a Pit Fiend (AC 42 with buffs) you auto-hit on your first 3 attacks (assuming you roll anything but a 1), then hit on a 5, 5, 10, 10, 15, 15. That puts your average damage per round against a pit-fiend at about...
157.175 damage per full-attack, counting two-weapon rend.
This is without counting critical hits, which should increase the damage to about 263.8 damage per round. It also doesn't account for any critical feats such as stunning, blinding, or bleeding critical.
Just some considerations.
EDIT: The attack routine and damage should increase slightly, as I forgot to add the +1 bonus to hit from Haste. In short, the damage should statistically increase by a small percentage due to the increased hit chance.
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You'd honestly be better off with a weapon you dont need an exotic proficiency for. You're going to be feat starved as is. To really be an effect 2 wpn fighter consider these feats: Double Slice, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Weapon Focus (Primary Weapon), Greater Weapon Specialization (Primary), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Vital Strike, Power Attack, Toughness, Two-Weapon Defense, Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Rend, Vital Strike, Weapon Focus (Primary Weapon, off hand Weapon), Weapon Specialization (Primary).
Im sure that other people will recommend other feats as well. But 2 weapon fighting is a feat hungry set up and you're already handicapped by not playing a human. And with such a low int, you're missing out on some helpful feats (combat expertise). A monk would have an easy time of taking you out played properly (flurry of blows with improved grapple/disarm = game over).
Ashiel - Are you still getting the 9 attacks as if I had a speed weapon? I've scrapped that idea now. :/
Also, I don't have weapon training as the Two Weapon Warrior feats replace that, so that's already a 5 gone. :(
As for weapons, I guess I'd have to go with a Kukri if I do that, but would I not be dealing significantly less damage than I would be with a Bastard Sword? I mean the only good thing I can see with the Kukri is that it's probably the best option for Criticals.
Oh and sorry, I just realised what you meant about my Strength and Dex scores. You're saying if I bare with my +1 Strength for the minute and then put my other 4 points (that I should get every 4 levels onward) onto my Dex, and then wish for the Inherent Bonuses and get my Belt of Physical Perfection, I should be able to reach those scores. Isn't that a lot of if's?
Also, if you're wishing for a +5 inherent bonus, don't you have to wish for +1 at a time? Meaning I'd have to convince the Sorcerer to do it 5 times for me, providing he actually has that spell?
Aazen - I've got two weapon defense, two weapon proficiency and double slice already, but I was really thinking of just putting every skill point possible onto my Strength, just so I can make a difference.
Ashiel - Are you still getting the 9 attacks as if I had a speed weapon? I've scrapped that idea now. :/
Also, I don't have weapon training as the Two Weapon Warrior feats replace that, so that's already a 5 gone. :(
As for weapons, I guess I'd have to go with a Kukri if I do that, but would I not be dealing significantly less damage than I would be with a Bastard Sword? I mean the only good thing I can see with the Kukri is that it's probably the best option for Criticals.
A bastard sword's average damage is 5.5.
A kurki's average damage is 2.5. Only 3 points of difference. However, the bastard sword is going to cost you feats, as well as accuracy (or more feats to try to reduce the accuracy penalty), and doesn't take advantage of your high Dexterity modifier nearly as well. Your strength is so low that you really want to be using your Dex for more.In short, the bastard sword's average damage will actually be lower for you down the line because of the fewer criticals, as well as being less accurate (accuracy = hits and hit = damage).
Oh and sorry, I just realised what you meant about my Strength and Dex scores. You're saying if I bare with my +1 Strength for the minute and then put my other 4 points (that I should get every 4 levels onward) onto my Dex, and then wish for the Inherent Bonuses and get my Belt of Physical Perfection, I should be able to reach those scores. Isn't that a lot of if's?
Yes, and at the same time, no. By level 20 you should be able to comfortably support that. The +4 Dex from gaining levels is all you. The belt you should be able to get from your friendly neighborhood magical artisan, or possibly by searching around repeatedly at different major cities, or commissioning one by a powerful wizard. Honestly, if you cannot get a +6 stat bonus item (a mere 36,000 gp) by the time you're level 20, you have more serious problems than kurki vs bastard sword. :P
Also, if you're wishing for a +5 inherent bonus, don't you have to wish for +1 at a time? Meaning I'd have to convince the Sorcerer to do it 5 times for me, providing he actually has that spell?
Get them from Genies. You can get free wishes as early as 11th level. Use planar binding to call an efreeti under peaceful circumstances. Ask for a moment of his or her time, and ask for an aladdin's deal. 2 wishes for 1. Get 3 genies to help you, since it costs them nothing and gets them a wish in the process, and you can get your +5 inherent modifiers filled out for your party in about a week of game-time. I've had players in my group do this. It's fairly simple and strait-forward, and works quite well.
Aazen - I've got two weapon defense, two weapon proficiency and double slice already, but I was really thinking of just putting every skill point possible onto my Strength, just so I can make a difference.
The problem here is, unless you began with a 14 strength, you really won't feel much of a bang at high levels. With a 14 strength, a +6 magic item, +5 levels, and +5 inherent, you can reach 30 which would give a +10 to hit and damage. Honestly, with your Dex, you can easily reach 34 Dexterity which would be a +12 to hit, and a +7 to damage from your Strength, and that I believe is superior to the extra +2 damage that a 28 strength would muster (since you'd lose no less than 15% of your to-hit accuracy, resulting in a lower average damage).
Regarding the sawtooth sabre - it's most recently reprinted in the campaign setting. I do notice however that it now essentially gives the same bonus as "improved balance" in that it only counts as a light weapon for the purposes of two-weapon fighting - it is no longer finessable.
The Aldori dueling blade *is* finessable, but it does not count as a light weapon for the purpose of two-weapon fighting. You "improved balanced" will get around that though. So there's your item. Dual-wield Aldori dueling blades. (The weapon is also in the new campaign setting.)
So does that mean if I have a +5 weapon, I no longer need to worry about Damage Reduction indefinitely?
If that's the case there's no point in getting those feats that allow me to ignore DR, as I could just save up for/find a +5 weapon and happily deal whatever damage I roll (+ my magical thundering and shocking bonuses).
Dual-wield Aldori dueling blades sound good, but is there a way I can find out about them? We haven't been given anything regarding campaign only weapons, so the only references I have are from Core and APG.
Thanks a lot for all of the help!
There are a few types of DR that you wont overcome with a +5 weapon (for example a sword doesn't overcome bludgeon and piercing DR) - but as a rule you are DR fine.
A bastard sword's average damage is 5.5.
A kurki's average damage is 2.5. Only 3 points of difference. However, the bastard sword is going to cost you feats, as well as accuracy (or more feats to try to reduce the accuracy penalty), and doesn't take advantage of your high Dexterity modifier nearly as well. Your strength is so low that you really want to be using your Dex for more.
Only problem for this is you can only finesse your off hand, not your primary, so my dex instead of str would only effect my off hand in terms of damage capabilities.
Still, a 1D3 (because I'm small) Kukri would fail to get past any kinds of damage reduction right now, due to my +1 on damage. The problem with this is when the monk isn't around or is in trouble, the party relies on me to get things done, and as it is the group's struggling at times right now, so if I can't get past Damage Reduction at the minute, there would be no point in even fighting until later levels where I should be capable of dealing mass damage.
Also, how can I use Planar Binding to call an efreeti genie to me? I don't know what Planar Binding is, so I doubt my character would be able to do it, unless this is something for the Sorcerer to do?
Steel - I was going to have a Sun Blade as an optional off hand weapon for when it comes to fighting the Undead. :)
Lore - Thanks for clearing that up. I can now choose other feats that should benefit me, instead of worrying about this!
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You can finesse any hand as long as you use a light weapon in it.
Dex only affects the ability to hit, not damage...that always relies on strength
Planar binding is a spell...you can find it in the spell description in the core rulebook. It is a high level wizard/sorcerer spell.
Why would you need an efreeti?
There's a feat that allows you to use half your dex as damage instead of Strength, that my DM was going to allow me to use if I had stuck with short swords.
Ashiel - Planar Binding traps something against its will, so would it not try and hunt me down?
I don't really see how trapping something is a peaceful thing, so is there not a way to find one and just talk to it? If I ask for two wishes instead of one, could I ask for a straight out +5 inherent bonus to everything, and then say to the genie he/she can wish for something him/herself? That way the genie gets its own wish.
Well, I don't know if I'll ever get a chance to wish for anything, but if I do, I like the idea of these wishes. Though some are maybe too much to ask:
1. I wish to be immortal, without changing my mental or physical form in any way other than what I can already do (meaning I should be able to keep my Were abilities).
2. I wish to have a deed for a relatively large plot of land already occupied by a once used but vacant Castle, that's in pristine condition and ready for me to occupy.
3. I wish for the world to know that I am the Half-ling King.
4. I wish for anyone who opposes me to have 10 strength and dex damage.
5. I wish for the world to know there is a safe haven for all good half-ling's.
6. I wish all Half-ling's living within my Kingdom to be seen as the Dominant species of the world.
7. I wish for anyone visiting my kingdom with good intentions to have a permanent boost of +2 to Will saves.
8. I wish for a 100 foot statue of myself to be placed at the peak of a mountain for everyone to see.
9. I wish nobody can ever successfully cast death on me.
10. I wish to have Angel wings when I pass the age of 100.
Wishes are spoken, never written (with one exception pre-3e). So, let us look at these wishes from the standpoint of the granting genie:
1.) I would use the "simple eternal" template. You indeed become immortal - you also never again gain a single point of XP.
2.) You receive the deed to a vacant castle in good repair. However, the dungeon beneath is not vacant. The occupant(s) of the aforementioned dungeon is entirely subject to Whatever the GM Feels Like Playing With - CR is not a factor. Depending upon the campaign and world, the language of the deed and the location of the castle is subject to discretion.
3.) The world knows your name as "Half-ling King". This is your true name. You can be called or summoned by any one with sufficient ability. You cannot infiltrate, for all know who you are by your mere presence, let alone appearance. All methods of disguise fail. You cannot lie about your name, for you know no other name.
4.) This ability would draw the power for doing so to one's foe one at a time by inflicting 10 ability damage to all of your ability scores. For each foe. The Gawds help you if a mob of angry peasants armed with pitchforks and torches...
5.) There is a safe haven for all good half-lings. What ever those creatures may be. It is never where you are.
6.) Indeed, all half-lings are the dominant species. If any existed.
7.) This wish draws its power from you. Every creature so visiting your kingdom - once you have one - receives a +2 bonus on their Will saves - at the expense of yours. Once your Will save bonus is depleted to -20, you automatically fail all Will saving throws, even on a natural 20. The next one renders you ever after unable to benefit from morale bonuses of all sorts. Each step past that makes you permanently suffer from mind-affecting effects in the order in which you encounter them: charms, compulsions, fear effects, morale penalties, patterns, phantasms and all other affects with the mind-affecting descriptor.
8.) A 100 foot tall statue of you is placed at the peak of a mountain. Sadly, you have no clue where that mountain is. Is it even on the same planet ? The same plane ? Did it appear out of thin air adjacent to the lair of a pit fiend or balrog or a rather vainglorious solar? Is it at the peak of a mountain thrust up from the ocean depths? You don't know, and the grantor sure isn't telling you. It's too funny.
9.) Since there is no specific Death spell, this is granted. If you meant "death effects", you need to try again.
10.) Granted! You sprout magnificent feathered wings like unto those of the angels when your character passes the age of 100. They even work.
Well, I don't know if I'll ever get a chance to wish for anything, but if I do, I like the idea of these wishes. Though some are maybe too much to ask:
3. I wish for the world to know that I am the Half-ling King.
5. I wish for the world to know there is a safe haven for all good half-ling's.
6. I wish all Half-ling's living within my Kingdom to be seen as the Dominant species of the world.
In order to clarify, since wishes are spoken, I will re-visit these based upon "Half-ling" being "Halfling".
3. As my first reply, replacing "Half-ling King" with "Halfling King". This otherwise remains unchanged.
5. The whole world knows that there is now a safe haven for good halflings. This includes the bad guys.
6. When you indeed found a kingdom within which halflings live, all of them enjoy the delusional arrogance of believing that they are the dominant species of the world. Your population of hobbits become aggressively fascist, blaming "humans" for their problems, cursing them for making everything too big, eating too much and drinking all the good beer (among many many other things). If you do not share these beliefs with your citizens, you face exile, execution or interrogation as a "hobbit traitor".
Well, at least your genie is nice enough to give me the last wish, even if he's a complete bum regarding everything else.
I guess I could become Half-Celestial to sort out my bonuses, but other than that I might try to just get Inherent Bonuses on my Strength and Dex, otherwise I feel it's a little too much to ask of a Genie. I mean I doubt they like being harassed for wishes all of the time, or even like granting them.
As long as I can get the wings, that's at least a Symbol of Hope to everyone who may eventually see me as a hero.
Everything else I can just work towards by saving up, but as it stands, I'm going halves with the Sorcerer to buy back the punching dagger that will grant me Were powers, so I'll have no money left after that.
When the Cleric died, a Half-Orc Alchemist replaced him, so I guess we have a healer, but how effective he'll be, I don't know, as I've never seen how an Alchemist plays out. This one specialises in sword play and bomb throwing.
I could always ask for three wishes, take two myself and grant the Genie one, but I wouldn't want to allow the genie to have too many wishes, as it could wish for my wishes to be taken away lol.
Well, at least your genie is nice enough to give me the last wish, even if he's a complete bum regarding everything else.
I guess I could become Half-Celestial to sort out my bonuses, but other than that I might try to just get Inherent Bonuses on my Strength and Dex, otherwise I feel it's a little too much to ask of a Genie. I mean I doubt they like being harassed for wishes all of the time, or even like granting them.
As long as I can get the wings, that's at least a Symbol of Hope to everyone who may eventually see me as a hero.
Everything else I can just work towards by saving up, but as it stands, I'm going halves with the Sorcerer to buy back the punching dagger that will grant me Were powers, so I'll have no money left after that.
When the Cleric died, a Half-Orc Alchemist replaced him, so I guess we have a healer, but how effective he'll be, I don't know, as I've never seen how an Alchemist plays out. This one specialises in sword play and bomb throwing.
I could always ask for three wishes, take two myself and grant the Genie one, but I wouldn't want to allow the genie to have too many wishes, as it could wish for my wishes to be taken away lol.
One thing to keep in mind that would play much more favorably is to negotiate in advance with the three-wish genie: If your two wishes are reasonable in scope - for example, the wings I would grant immediately if you had requested them without the age requirement - the genie will grant them as close to the spirit as it can IF the third and final wish frees the genie from ever having to grant wishes to mortals. (This would also remove the ability from the genie altogether, but the genie wouldn't know this.) The contingency is this - if you welsh on the deal, the two previous wishes are revoked immediately.
The "trifecta" of wishes that are comparatively reasonable go as follows:
"I wish for a timeless body." (grants timeless body class feature)
"I wish for a venerable mind." (grants the bonuses to Int, Wis and Cha from the venerable age category - this would require a grantor willing to follow the 'spirit' of the wish rather than the letter of the wish, or it becomes a series of wishes to acquire). If you use the below wish, this is unnecessary, since you'll get these bonuses naturally in due course.
"I wish for a grey elf's lifespan." This was a wish made in my Greyhawk Savage Tide campaign. Grey elves live somewhere between 4 and 5 thousand years (using the 1e age tables for that campaign). It doesn't make you truly immortal, but several thousand years is an awfully long time. In more current parlance, "I wish for a true dragon's lifespan" achieves nearly the same result: a lifespan of 2+ thousand years. Violence and other causes can still snuff you out, you're just not going to fall over from a heart attack shortly after you become 'venerable'.
Are the wings not a big deal then? I don't know if my DM liked the idea or not, but if they were functional, how many times would I be able to use them a day? Whenever at will or just once or twice? Maybe that just depends on the DM's wishes.
I see that as a fair thing to do for the Genie, although it wouldn't be fair to the rest of the party, haha. Are half-celestial wishes too much to ask for too?
Are the wings not a big deal then? I don't know if my DM liked the idea or not, but if they were functional, how many times would I be able to use them a day? Whenever at will or just once or twice? Maybe that just depends on the DM's wishes.
I see that as a fair thing to do for the Genie, although it wouldn't be fair to the rest of the party, haha. Are half-celestial wishes too much to ask for too?
A wish has great power - but the more energy that has to be spent, generally speaking, the worse the "side effects" get. A pair of functional wings of a particular appearance are not all that bad.
They're wings, not innate magical flight, so you have to reconstruct armor and clothing to accomodate them. You have (average) or (good) maneuverability - probably average, and you have all the other problems associated with winged flight. They're nice to have, make no mistake, but if you "force march" while flying you're in trouble. Winged flight when you get too tired to fly, and you're too high up, means you *splat* when you plummet to the ground. One thing I would rule is that you lose the "shoulders" magic item slot - your new, living, permanent wings take that slot.
In granting such a wish I would rule that they give the winged flight movement mode as: fly [your land speed] (average maneuverability). Basically, you get a small "piece" of the half-celestial pie with a given wish.
Acquiring the half-celestial template is something a wish could do ... temporarily (as polymorph any object). Reaching for this permanently via a single wish is much more likely to get you called to the Seven Heavens - or whereever - as the newest intern for Ye Olde Gawd, pulling the character out of play altogether. Or worse, much worse, depending upon how the wish is worded.
In essence, wishing your way to half-celestial - along with miracle, since both have the 25,000 gp material cost, would probably require 5 or 6 of them to acquire the template at a total cost of 125,000 - 150,000 gp (roughly on par with becoming a lich) is something best done in bite-sized morsels.
Acquiring the half-celestial template is something a wish could do ... temporarily (as polymorph any object). Reaching for this permanently via a single wish is much more likely to get you called to the Seven Heavens - or whereever - as the newest intern for Ye Olde Gawd, pulling the character out of play altogether. Or worse, much worse, depending upon how the wish is worded.
That's pretty awesome to know. The wings should be good, and the armour I'm not worried about, as I'm going to change my chainmail for Bracers when I can afford to, and then any armour on top of that I'll get from Pendants and Rings. So that shouldn't be a problem. Might even try to bargain with my DM to allow me to have the wings fly me 30 feet instead of 20.
As for the Half-Celestial wish, I was thinking of trying to get the bonuses from it on me permanently, but don't know how likely I'll succeed. Although, allowing the Genie to never have to wish for another mortal again is a pretty big thing, so it might be generous.
Caius - If Dragonborn's get it, I don't see it as being too much of a problem, but yea, in regard to being Half Celestial, how would that change me physically? I was thinking if I'm going with Angel looking wings, I suppose I could just have metallic hair.
Volaran - Yea, I spoke to my DM about that and he said he'd allow me to control every form as I choose. So that's handy, otherwise I wouldn't have considered it.
EDIT: Honestly for Half-Celestial a more thematically appropriate route would be having a high standing cleric of Cayden intercede for Miracle (cleric version of wish basically) "to make you in body what you are in spirit". I'd run that past your DM and see if that could be thread into the story.
I would probably rule that this changes his race to aasimar rather than half-celestial. If I was inclined to grant half-celestial via Cayden Cailen, he'd be a permanently drunk one (no mental ability score bonuses, no spell-like abilities, doesn't feel pain).
Are the wings not a big deal then? I don't know if my DM liked the idea or not, but if they were functional, how many times would I be able to use them a day? Whenever at will or just once or twice? Maybe that just depends on the DM's wishes.
I see that as a fair thing to do for the Genie, although it wouldn't be fair to the rest of the party, haha. Are half-celestial wishes too much to ask for too?
CaptainCortez, try to remember that Wish is only a spell (a horribly, horribly, horribly named one at that) and as such is limited in what it can accomplish. If you read the other spells of the same power level (9th) you will get an example of magic that wish CANNOT do.
At that point, realise that any effect LESS or near those other spells is something that wish can most likely accomplish. Anything beyond what those spells can do is either impossible, or possible but with horrible repurcussions from magic backlash.
Wish would have been better named as "Ultimate Utility" in that it's make up is such that it can probably do ALMOST anything a mortally castable magic spell can perform.
But even 9th level magic has limits (and in the end Wish is just a 9th level spell). Since ONE wish can permanently add +1 to ONE stat asking a wish to make you a Half Celestial (which adds 18! various stat points and TONS of other powers) is simply beyond the power of the spell/magic. While it might be able to do it for a very brief period (or more than likel not since there is already a spell from 3.5 that does it, it is also a 9th level spell and it lasts 6 seconds per level and Wish cannot duplicate other 9th level spells) it definately cannot do it permanently.
Wishes cannot grant world crushing abilities or power. If they could, the first creature to be able to use the power of the wish have been an omnipotent, instoppable force, and that does not seem to have been the case in any of the game settings I know of.
The kinds of rewards your looking for are not common, some are nearly impossible. To get them from simple magic is just not going to happen. If you want to be a half celestial, your going to nead to somehow impress a deity enough to earn it and possibly have it granted upon you.
If your getting wishes from Djinni, it is not really a matter of if they are 'giving you what you want' or 'being nice to you' it is a matter of 'can wish even do what your asking' or 'If I try to grant this wish will the forces of magic tear me apart'.
EDIT: Honestly for Half-Celestial a more thematically appropriate route would be having a high standing cleric of Cayden intercede for Miracle (cleric version of wish basically) "to make you in body what you are in spirit". I'd run that past your DM and see if that could be thread into the story.I would probably rule that this changes his race to aasimar rather than half-celestial. If I was inclined to grant half-celestial via Cayden Cailen, he'd be a permanently drunk one (no mental ability score bonuses, no spell-like abilities, doesn't feel pain).
I did actually want to be Aasimar, but he wouldn't allow it as it's a Core Class only campaign.
As for Cayden intervening, that would be pretty cool if my character couldn't feel pain at all, and to be honest, no mental bonuses wouldn't matter too much, as I only have a +2 Perception anyway. I normally always fail, haha!
Volaran - Yea, it might be an idea, although he said he didn't want any of the party to know what I was doing, so it all has to be kept secret, and the Sorcerer only wants the dagger to give to some group of magic users for some reason. It means something to his character, but I can't recall what.
Caius - The Azata have some pretty cool abilities, but don't seem to have any + to ability stats if that block of text is anything to go by.
There's a feat that allows you to use half your dex as damage instead of Strength, that my DM was going to allow me to use if I had stuck with short swords.
Ashiel - Planar Binding traps something against its will, so would it not try and hunt me down?
I don't really see how trapping something is a peaceful thing, so is there not a way to find one and just talk to it? If I ask for two wishes instead of one, could I ask for a straight out +5 inherent bonus to everything, and then say to the genie he/she can wish for something him/herself? That way the genie gets its own wish.
Planar Binding allows you to call an outsider. You can force it to do your bidding, but you can just as easily just talk to the creature. If it's not down with what you're sellin', apologize for wasting its time, then you can declare its task finished and the creature is whisked back to its home, no harm, no foul.
As to dealing with djinn, it's like this. If you could grant wishes to a mortal, and it cost you no time or effort, and then that mortal would make a wish on your behalf, like in Aladdin, would you ever, in your right mind, say no? What if you were generally a selfish and evil genie, and you didn't even care how much the mortal screwed with his own world's balance by wishing to be the richest, or the fastest, or whatever it is mortals wish for these days?
If you say you wouldn't, then I'd probably expect you to be lying, because there's generally no logical reason why an efreeti wouldn't want to grant some mortal wizard a few wishes in exchange for a wish for himself.
That's pretty much the way of it too. Summon an efreeti, and explain that you don't want to trap or enslave him, but just want to make a partnership and the binding circle is for your protection, and is nothing personal. Explain you want to wish for 2 unperverted wishes, and you'll make your 3rd wish on the djinn's behalf. The djinn, recognizing this as a sweet deal for what amounts to 0% effort, happily agrees (virtually anything else is likely metagaming).
So you get 3 genies to agree to your "holy crap so awesome" deal, and get their names. With their names, you can schedule with them, and have them be your personal wish genies (they will have exclusive rights to your wishes). With 3 genies, that's 6 wishes per day, or a +5 inherent modifier each day that you get them to grant you a few wishes. In the span of about a month, you can give everyone in your party a +5 inherent modifier.
Pro-Tip: As a GM, I can say +5 to ability scores isn't that amazing. Especially since it caps at +5, and it doesn't break their normal ability cap for 20th level characters. On average, it adds only +2.5 to their actual modifiers, which is actually pretty mild.
There's a feat that allows you to use half your dex as damage instead of Strength, that my DM was going to allow me to use if I had stuck with short swords.
Ashiel - Planar Binding traps something against its will, so would it not try and hunt me down?
I don't really see how trapping something is a peaceful thing, so is there not a way to find one and just talk to it? If I ask for two wishes instead of one, could I ask for a straight out +5 inherent bonus to everything, and then say to the genie he/she can wish for something him/herself? That way the genie gets its own wish.
Planar Binding allows you to call an outsider. You can force it to do your bidding, but you can just as easily just talk to the creature. If it's not down with what you're sellin', apologize for wasting its time, then you can declare its task finished and the creature is whisked back to its home, no harm, no foul.
As to dealing with djinn, it's like this. If you could grant wishes to a mortal, and it cost you no time or effort, and then that mortal would make a wish on your behalf, like in Aladdin, would you ever, in your right mind, say no? What if you were generally a selfish and evil genie, and you didn't even care how much the mortal screwed with his own world's balance by wishing to be the richest, or the fastest, or whatever it is mortals wish for these days?
If you say you wouldn't, then I'd probably expect you to be lying, because there's generally no logical reason why an efreeti wouldn't want to grant some mortal wizard a few wishes in exchange for a wish for himself.
That's pretty much the way of it too. Summon an efreeti, and explain that you don't want to trap or enslave him, but just want to make a partnership and the binding circle is for your protection, and is nothing personal. Explain you want to wish for 2 unperverted wishes, and you'll make your 3rd wish on the djinn's behalf. The djinn, recognizing this as a sweet deal for what amounts to 0% effort, happily agrees...
Ah right, so if you reach level 20 with Max Str or Dex, you can't actually put bonuses on your Str or Dex because it doesn't break the limit?
Also, if I really can't become Half-Celestial permanently with a wish, there's not much point in wishing for it, so as sad as it, I'll probably just have to wish for wings and faster movement speed. That way I should at least be able to keep up with the party.
Aazen - Apparently. :p
Ah right, so if you reach level 20 with Max Str or Dex, you can't actually put bonuses on your Str or Dex because it doesn't break the limit?
Also, if I really can't become Half-Celestial permanently with a wish, there's not much point in wishing for it, so as sad as it, I'll probably just have to wish for wings and faster movement speed. That way I should at least be able to keep up with the party.
Aazen - Apparently. :p
Well you see, a +5 inherent modifier is the highest you can have. You can get, at most within 20 levels, +5 to your ability score via leveling, +5 via wish or tomes, and +6 via enhancement items such as gauntlets of strength. Essentially, no matter how you get the +5 inherent, you're not going to go higher than you would have been able to otherwise; so an experienced GM will know it's not all that worrisome.
Thanks very much guys!
I kind of want the Manual of Exercising, but it's a lot of money to get.
Anyway, I'll see what he says about all of this. See what he has to say about it all. Think I'll grab the boots of striding and springing though, as it boosts by Acrobatics up even higher. I'm already on a 12, so the boots should take it up to a 17.
Any idea what the cap is for skill points?
Thanks very much guys!
I kind of want the Manual of Exercising, but it's a lot of money to get.
Anyway, I'll see what he says about all of this. See what he has to say about it all. Think I'll grab the boots of striding and springing though, as it boosts by Acrobatics up even higher. I'm already on a 12, so the boots should take it up to a 17.
Any idea what the cap is for skill points?
Well the bonus from the manuals of exercise and the wish bonus is the same and doesn't stack. If you have access to planar binding, I'd skip the manuals, because they're probably pretty rare and/or expensive.
As for skill points...
Hypothetically, the most skill points you could acquire would be...
460 skill points. That would essentially be an Int 20 human with a 8 skill point class, adding +1 to his intelligence every 4 levels, getting a +5 inherent modifier, and a +6 enhancement bonus, plus the human bonus, and putting your favored class bonus into skill points.
You could, theoretically max 23 different skills that way. Effectively, you would be godlike in virtually everything. Pretty cool.
If your GM allows 3.x feats, or third party feats such as Open Minded (available as OGC, also found in a few 3PP Paizo update books), the feat gives you +5 skill points. So you could trade feats for skill points. In this case, you could acquire a total of 515 skill points if you also converted all 11 feats (using the hypothetical human, above) into skill points with this feat.
Which would allow you to max an additional 2 skills and have about 15 points left over to almost max a third (that would be 25.75 maxed skills).
The character may not be very powerful, but it would be interesting.
IMHO, when you get that high of a level you should just pat yourself on the back, thank the GM for a wonderful campaign, and then retire the character and make a new first level character.
Spending too much time on an UBER character is ultimately self-defeating. Half the fun of the game is playing in circumstances where I know I might lose and die. Losing an UBER character sucks beyond scope, so you really aren't playing for the FULL challenge... you have to know when to let go.
Tell your GM that you are designing your OWN retirement story for your campaign, and you want him to incorporate it into his game. If you want to retire your character as an ascended being, just tell him you don't want to roll any dice! Just DO IT so you can start a new adventure.
The character may not be very powerful, but it would be interesting.
Definitely. The only thing I don't like is the fact you can't have any skill point ranks higher than your actual character level, otherwise I could have focused solely on one thing.
With acrobatics, if you successfully roll with the damage, do you take half or no damage?
I was thinking of rolling with the damage on every single hard hit, as it would probably make sense what with being such a Dexterous character and all. The idea is to move in and out of the fight quickly, and deal as much damage possible while I'm up close.
I currently have a ring of feather fall and a ring of jumping, so I'm pretty acrobatic. I've got a 12 in Stealth, a 12 in Acrobatics and I think a 5 in climb, but I thought if you fail to climb and fall whilst wearing a ring of featherfall, you don't take damage, but apparently it only negates the last 5 feet of the drop, so you'd still take damage.
I have a sling staff for any situations where I may not be strong enough up front, and the idea was to run off and climb onto a building, and pick the creature off from above.
Haven't had a chance to use my stealth yet, as I haven't had too much of a chance to branch off from the party, but I'm getting friendly with the arrogant Sorcerer, so if he stays behind and casts spells from afar (if I fail at sneaking up on something), it could work out well.
Anyway, as I said I'll ask the DM what he thinks about permanently staying half celestial later on, and wishing for inherent bonuses or increased land speed from the genie. I'm also going to mention about the Bastard Swords because I do see your point. My character may be a Gladiator, but even Gladiators only wield two short swords, not bastard swords. So, I'll see what he says I should do.
I think the Bastard sword idea was just something I liked as it would go with the all powerful halfling idea, but if the setting is seen as more realistic then I'll change it to either Short Swords or Kukri's. I like Short Swords a lot more, but the Kukri has a better critical threat range as explained to me previously, so it'll be a toss up between the two, but I think Short Swords would prevail as they're more suited to Gladiators than two small curved knives (I've got a score of 6 in Profession of Gladiator).
Enthallo - Well, I think taking into account all of the replies in this thread, I'll aim to get Isaac a few things that should start to make him a symbol of power and hope, but it's looking likely to turn him into a god once the game is finished (if I live that long). I mean I don't even know how this campaign will end, so depending on how it ends will depend on how I play out Isaac's ending with the DM. Never know, he might even get a girlfriend and decide to live happily ever after with her. :)
Gilfalas - I'll give it a try regardless, as there's no harm in trying, but thanks for the explanation. :)
The character may not be very powerful, but it would be interesting.Definitely. The only thing I don't like is the fact you can't have any skill point ranks higher than your actual character level, otherwise I could have focused solely on one thing.
Well, that's actually why you're limited by your level. Otherwise you would frequently see level 1 characters that could leap the grand canyon by taking 10 (for example, if you got 14 skill points at level 1, that could be turned into a +17 bonus before applying ability scores, then skill focus would be another +3, so you'd likely have something like a +22 acrobatics check at 1st level, allowing you to jump some 32 feet or so without breaking a sweat).
With acrobatics, if you successfully roll with the damage, do you take half or no damage?
Acrobatics can allow you to avoid attacks of opportunity. Essentially, it can let you weave in and out of a creature's threatened area, or even through a creature's threatened area, but does not allow you to actually negate or reduce the damage of incoming attacks. More specifically, with a successful Acrobatics check, while moving, you would not provoke attacks. It does nothing if the creature uses its turn to attack you.
It can, however, be used to reduce the damage from falling (as described in the skill description).
I was thinking of rolling with the damage on every single hard hit, as it would probably make sense what with being such a Dexterous character and all. The idea is to move in and out of the fight quickly, and deal as much damage possible while I'm up close.
Sounds fair.
I currently have a ring of feather fall and a ring of jumping, so I'm pretty acrobatic. I've got a 12 in Stealth, a 12 in Acrobatics and I think a 5 in climb, but I thought if you fail to climb and fall whilst wearing a ring of featherfall, you don't take damage, but apparently it only negates the last 5 feet of the drop, so you'd still take damage.
You may wish to re-read it. The ring grants you the benefits of a featherfall spell, and activates anytime you fall 5 or more feet. Since you only take damage from falling 10ft or more, the ring effectively prevents falling damage.
Anyway, as I said I'll ask the DM what he thinks about permanently staying half celestial later on, and wishing for inherent bonuses or increased land speed from the genie. I'm also going to mention about the Bastard Swords because I do see your point. My character may be a Gladiator, but even Gladiators only wield two short swords, not bastard swords. So, I'll see what he says I should do.
If your GM has any concerns with you wishing for inherent modifiers, you can have him speak to me if he'd like another GM's experiences with it. I've been doing this sort of thing for a long time now. A lot of GMs are very jumpy with what they see as "free stuff", or over-estimate the benefits of the ability score enhancement. If he's worried about potential balance issues, that would be understandable. However, if he is allowing things like half-celestial templates or the like, a +5 inherent modifier is really quite mild.
I think the Bastard sword idea was just something I liked as it would go with the all powerful halfling idea, but if the setting is seen as more realistic then I'll change it to either Short Swords...
Keep in mind that you could describe your weapons a bit different. As long as you pay the appropriate amounts, the kurki could be reflavored as far as their appearance. For example, the bastard sword could be used to express a Katana, even though Katanas and the D&D bastard sword look quite different. You could describe your blades as pretty much anything you wanted, but they would just function mechanically as kukri. That's called refluffing, and it's basically a method of expanding your roleplaying opportunities without having to get bogged down in house rules.