Metamagic and Spells Lasting Longer than 1 Round


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


So my question is pretty straight forward.

Say I cast a maximized contagious flame. Per the description of maximize spell:
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Your spells have the maximum possible effect.

Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables.

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Per Contagious Flame:

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You blast several enemies with beams of fire. You may fire three rays, plus one additional ray for every four levels beyond 11th (to a maximum of five rays at 19th level). Each ray requires a ranged touch attack to hit and deals 4d6 points of fire damage.

The rays may be fired at the same or different targets, but all rays must be aimed at targets within 30 feet of each other and fired simultaneously.

Every round on your turn, a new ray of fire launches from each creature who took damage from the spell in the previous round-these new rays attack as if you fired them, but their point of origin is the previous creature damaged. You can choose the new targets as a free action, all of whom must be within close range (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) of their new starting point. This contagion of flame continues for a total of three rounds-a creature can be struck more than once by this spell over the course of these three rounds, although never by a ray of fire that launches from itself.
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So would all new rays from the original casting still be maximized? This is the only way that the spell would have the "maximum possible effect..." It also states they attack as if you fired them.

The same holds true for using reach spell, and extending the range to large. If I were to make a wizard using spell perfection cast a level 6 contagious flame maximized, and apply a rod of reach spell, could I theoretically cast rays at 400+40/level, and each round they restrike at that range, dealing maximum damage?


I'd say yes. You expended the higher level spell slot. No reason that spells with a duration should be weaker than instantaneous spells. No reason to make maximize weaker than it already is.


Yes and no, in my interpretation. Yes to Maximizing through all the rounds - it'll deal 24 damage per ray. However, I think the range increase from Reach spell only affects the range at which you can cast the spell, and since the spell specifically states the range at which the spells are copied, I don't think this applies.

d20pfsrd wrote:
Benefit: You can alter a spell with a range of touch, close, or medium to increase its range to a higher range category, using the following order: touch, close, medium, and long.

However, it's clearly a matter of interpretation on this, so it's really up to the DM. I can't find RAW going either way (or rather, I can see it going both ways).


Quote:
Reach Spell - Benefit: You can alter a spell with a range of touch, close, or medium to increase its range to a higher range category, using the following order: touch, close, medium, and long.

I'd say this doesn't apply to subsequent rays, only to casting of the spell.

The additional rays description states that they attack as if you fired them but they must be fired within close range.

However, it is not completely clear to me whether this is an exclusive case or open to interpretation. I say, probably exclusive.

Quote:
Maximize Spell - Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables.

As stated in the description, maximize spell applies to all numeric effects of a spell, that means it applies also to additional rays as they are a part of the spell in question.


HansiIsMyGod wrote:
Quote:
Reach Spell - Benefit: You can alter a spell with a range of touch, close, or medium to increase its range to a higher range category, using the following order: touch, close, medium, and long.

I'd say this doesn't apply to subsequent rays, only to casting of the spell.

The additional rays description states that they attack as if you fired them but they must be fired within close range.

However, it is not completely clear to me whether this is an exclusive case or open to interpretation. I say, probably exclusive.

Quote:
Maximize Spell - Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables.

As stated in the description, maximize spell applies to all numeric effects of a spell, that means it applies also to additional rays as they are a part of the spell in question.

The reach spell part is tricky, because like you say it says the range of the subsequent rays in the spell.

The ruling could go both ways, as the question becomes whether that was restating the spell range, and whether the "if you fired them" overrules the specified range.


I don't think that the Reach or Enlarge metamagic feats would increase the spell effect for subsequent rays because it seems obviously to be a matter of area of effect, and the spell origin of effect (casting) is different from the spell effect (subsequently firing rays).

I would, however, rule that using Widen would allow you to double the range that each target must be within 60' of each other instead of just 30', because I think it falls in line with the spirit of the Widen metamagic feat, namely increasing the area of effect.

I think this is more important, because even IF Reach or Enlarge would work, you still couldn't fire between two targets more than 30' from each other anyway, so it's a pointless speculation. Though, I personally would let Reach or Enlarge work on the subsequent rays, and I would let Widen increase the area to 60' of each other target. That's a lot of metamagic. You may as well get your spell level's worth. Honestly, though, if you're level 12 then you get 55' at close range, so you wouldn't need Reach or Enlarge anyway. Widen would be the only thing that you need, and I would allow it.

Also, yes, the damage for every subsequent ray would be Maximized.

HansiIsMyGod wrote:
As stated in the description, maximize spell applies to all numeric effects of a spell, that means it applies also to additional rays as they are a part of the spell in question.

No, maximize applies to all variable numeric effects of the spell. The number of rays are not variable. They are set, and based on the caster level. The damage, however, is a variable, numeric effect of the spell.

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