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does this flat 15,000gp magic item really grant fighters a +2 to hit and damage aside from its other effects? ( increasing their weapon training bonus by 2 ) ?
or does the +2 only apply to CMB / CMD ? am I missing something? or does this seem like TOO good an item?
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no it does exactly what you are afraid it does.
Boosts weapon training by 2. which is why every monk should buy a monks robe and the dueling gloves and dip 5 lvls into fighter.
good god, who thought that was a good idea?
why not just put it in the weapon listing for magic items?+15,000gp, make this sword deal +2 attack/damage.
i could kind of understand it if it granted the wielder +4 vs. disarm/sunder, and if the wearer had weapon training, wielding an appropriate weapon, boosted the training's CMB/CMD bonus by +2.
so a 5th level fighter would get a net +7 vs. disarm/sunder.
that fits with the nature of the gloves. they prevent you from being disarmed, and you don't lose your weapon when you're stunner or panicked.
( in fact, that's how i'm going to house rule it. fighter's already get enough bonuses to hit and damage )
enough bonuses to hit and damage )
As a current player of a fighter...
there's no such thing :p
fighter's already get enough bonuses to hit and damage )
What.
More seriously, it's a fighter-only (or rather, 5th+level fighter only) benefit, that gives +2 to hit and damage for nearly the price of a magic weapon that gives +3 to hit and damage (and being honest, that's the main draw of the item. Anti disarming benefits are fine but not worth the price).
APG is full of these kinds of things that give particular benefits to a particular class. Fighter's dueling gloves, barbarian's furious greataxe, cleric's conductive mace, etc... Just the APG's style, fighters aren't at all unique in getting a little boost and a few class-specific toys in that book.
If you do houserule it, however, I would consider also lowering the price to 4-5k, more on the level of other gloves with similarly minor and circumstantial benefits, such as gloves of arrow snaring.
I think the bigger issue is why a 5th level character (average WBL 10,500) has a 15K item? Even in Mr Jacobs double WBL that is more than half of the wealth on one item. If you look at it at say level 9-10+ where the item is 1/3 of wealth or less then its not that bad. I understand this item has been a recent bailiwick for you but to be blunt you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.
At that cost nobody would ever buy it if it only helped prevent disarm. I mean really, how often does that actually come up?
My group's 16th level fighter just picked some up. It's nice, but wasn't even on his radar until after he had a pair of really good scimitars.
Yeah, just an item that helps a specific class. Our rogue/fighter/duelist is saving his coppers so he can get them someday. He definitely wants a dueling weapon, too. Hates getting disarmed!
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its my molehill, its comfortable and its mine ::hugs the dirt::
i know 5th level characters don't have that kind of money. the player in my game that got it is about 13th level now. he's multiclass fighter/ranger. now he can afford it. i say 5th level fighter b/c its the minimum for weapon training.
I know everyone gets their boosts. but usually its about 4-5 levels of a boost in one ability. for a fighter, this is an 8 level boost in an ability.
And while they're spending 15,000gp on it, they can spend 18,000gp on their weapon, and have a +5 bonus for about 32,000gp instead of 50,000gp.
It would be like saying monks need a damage boost. lets let them wield magic weapons, but lets also let their amulet of mighty fists count too, so they can have a +3 kama, and an amulet of flaming mighty fists. you get. you can't do it. but if you could, you'd have a combo equivalent to a +4 weapon, for about 10,000gp cheaper.
I just think its vague when it says the weapon training bonus. weapon training bonus as applied to what? the focus of the weapon is dueling and defense. it then jumps to weapon training for every aspect gaining a +2?
I think 15,000gp's too cheap for an unstatted +2 to hit / damage. Bracers of Archery grant a specific bonus with bows, but its only a +2/+1 bonus, and its typed as circumstance, so it might not stack with everything, and that costs 25,000gp. yeah only fighters can take this, but they can also pick up the bracers if they have bows as one of their weapon groups and the bonuses will stack.
Its too cheap for what everyone seems to want it to do, If you want a magic item that gives a flat +2 to hit and damage, as well as doing other handy stuff for fighter types, price it at about 25-30k. cheap utility gloves cost about 4k like the gloves of arrow snaring, but they're not in effect constantly, and have a limited # of uses per day.
That Monk argument exists, actually.
Under APG, Brass Knuckles are listed under Unarmed Attacks (just as how Gauntlets are listed in Core, iirc). We all know that Brass Knuckles allow a Monk to use his unarmed strike damage, and they can be enchanted for the same price as normal weapons.
Amulet of Mighty Fists can be enchanted at a steep cost, but they do not need to be enchanted to a +1 before adding special abilities, and they apply to all natural and unarmed attacks.
Thus, the argument exists that a Monk can benefit from an enchanted brass knuckle and an amulet of mighty fists simultaneously. Running the math, I seem to recall that a monk could get +12 enchantments for ... 8k? ... more than the price of a +10 weapon.
Oh no fighters get a thing
And while they're spending 15,000gp on it, they can spend 18,000gp on their weapon, and have a +5 bonus for about 32,000gp instead of 50,000gp.
Yeah, this is a feature of Dnd's cost system though, not a bug.
Might as well bemoan that a character can get +3 to his AC from magic armor for 9k, or, can get the same +3 AC by buying a different bonus type item (+1 ring of protection) and +2 magic armor for only 6k!
So yes, you can get bonuses cheaper if you get two smaller bonuses rather than try for the absolute highest possible bonus in one item. There are disadvantages to that approach (your +3 weapon won't overcome DR that a +5 weapon would, is easier to break, sunder, dispel, you have used up a glove item slot and a weapon slot instead of just a weapon slot, etc) and advantages (you get an extra +1 to hit and damage).
I don't see the problem with any of it.
For multi-class characters, the gloves can actually be useful with less then 5 levels of fighter since the weaponmaster archeype gets weapon training at level 3. Then again, for anything but martial classes (ranger, rogue, maybe cavalier) those 3 missing levels might do more harm than they are worth.