So, why is it, I wonder, that Dagon is listed among the Demon Lords whereas all the other Lovecraft lifted deities are listed among the "Great Old Ones"?
Creative Director
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So, why is it, I wonder, that Dagon is listed among the Demon Lords whereas all the other Lovecraft lifted deities are listed among the "Great Old Ones"?
Because Dagon isn't actually a creation of Lovecraft's. He's taken from real-world mythology, although his incarnation as a demon lord in Pathfinder is VERY MUCH like the role he serves in Lovecraft's writings.
But since Dagon's not a specific creation of Lovecraft, and since he's got a long-standing tradition of being a demon lord in the game since the 3.5 days, we chose to make him a demon lord in Pathfinder as well.
He certainly fits in well with the Lovecraft mythos though—almost perfectly. In fact, in Pathfinder #46...
Additionally, Dagon is not a Great Old One in Lovecraft, but a high priest of Cthulhu among the Deep Ones, along with Mother Hydra.
Likewise, Dagon as a Demon Lord has long been conceived as actually predating the existing politics of the Abyss. Under the old 3ed scheme he was an Obyrith, and now (if I'm not mistaken) is a reformed Qlippoth, which gives him a bit of a Lovecraftian vibe already.
Also, Lovecraft often describes the great old ones and their servants as demonic or cacodemonic. I'm not sure he would necessarily have made a distinction in his own mind between what we would now qualify as an "aberration" versus an "outsider."
On a personal note, I am almost wetting my pants in excitement for PF#46, which is entirely appropriate. Shadows of Innsmouth is second only to the Dream Quest in my book! Hopefully we will see more of each from Paizo in the years to come. I heartily approved of all of your Dream Cycle inspired work in Rise of the Runelords and Into the Darklands. Perhaps Leng will someday get the in-depth exploration it deserves. I can think of no better company to do so.
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But since Dagon's not a specific creation of Lovecraft, and since he's got a long-standing tradition of being a demon lord in the game since the 3.5 days, we chose to make him a demon lord in Pathfinder as well.
He was also a demon lord in 1st Ed Monster Manual II.
According to Ed Greenwood, in "The Nine Hells Revisited," (Dragon Magazine #91), Asmodeus forcibly changed the exiled devil Jaqon's name to Dagon to thwart attempts to summon the offender. The original, in turn, took this as a grave insult.
Great spoiler James!
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1. Lovecraft's Dagon isn't a deity, or even a Great Old One...he's just an overgrown Deep One.
2. How many guys do you know named John? Maybe both the Deep One and the Demon Lord exist as separate entities.
LOL - there's probably a few Innsmouth Deep One's who were originally named John - now they're called qlirtprk'gnatch, or some such :D
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Creative Director
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But since Dagon's not a specific creation of Lovecraft, and since he's got a long-standing tradition of being a demon lord in the game since the 3.5 days, we chose to make him a demon lord in Pathfinder as well.He was also a demon lord in 1st Ed Monster Manual II.
According to Ed Greenwood, in "The Nine Hells Revisited," (Dragon Magazine #91), Asmodeus forcibly changed the exiled devil Jaqon's name to Dagon to thwart attempts to summon the offender. The original, in turn, took this as a grave insult.
Great spoiler James!
He was a demon lord in the 1st Ed. Monster Manual II, but wasn't statted up or really even talked about in that capacity until 3rd edition. Ed's article has a cool bit of backstory to it, but it kind of muddled the waters about whether Dagon was a devil or a demon for a long time.
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Creative Director
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1. Lovecraft's Dagon isn't a deity, or even a Great Old One...he's just an overgrown Deep One.
2. How many guys do you know named John? Maybe both the Deep One and the Demon Lord exist as separate entities.
1) Yup.
2) Nope; there's just one Dagon in Pathfinder. He's a demon lord who gets on famously with Lovecraftian elements. Kabriri is in that same category, as are a few others.
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2) Nope; there's just one Dagon in Pathfinder. He's a demon lord who gets on famously with Lovecraftian elements. Kabriri is in that same category, as are a few others.
Base Monster: Deep One
Monster Advancement: Medium to GargantuanMonster Advancement: +12 Hit Dice
Class Levels: 12 Cleric (Cthulhu) / 8 Fighter
Also worth noting: Dagon is a Demon Lord, but he was originally a Qlippoth (proto-demon). Qlippoth are quite similar to some Lovecraftian horrors, in that they're utterly alien in both mind and body.
I think the Abyss is where the Lovecraftian elements in the rest of the multiverse came from.
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Creative Director
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I think the Abyss is where the Lovecraftian elements in the rest of the multiverse came from.Some of them perhaps, but Lovecraft's beasts were a diverse lot. For example, the shantak has no connection to the Abyss. Rather, it's from outer space. Gugs, on the other hand, are from the Dreamlands. Dimensional shamblers and the hounds of Tindalos? Who knows. The fungi from Yuggoth are from another planet.
The list goes on. Thus, it's not really possible to say that all Lovecraftian horrors come from a single source.
The actual Lovecraftian monsters we're introducing into the game all come from the Material Plane (usually outer space or alien planets) or one of two other planes: the Dimension of Dreams or Leng. None of them come from the Abyss.
That said... the qlippoth DO come from the Abyss, and they pretty much fit the same exact niche as Lovecraftian monsters, so it's not like the Abyss has no Lovecraft-inspired elements in it at all.
It's just that the ones taken specifically from his writing aren't from the Abyss.
Yes, but what is it about Leng or the Dark Tapestry that make Lovecraftian horrors percolate forth from them? I see the Abyss (especially the deeper regions) as a sort of Platonic ideal that the other chaotic evil horrors in the multiverse are ultimately sourced from. Not necessarily that they're all (extraplanar: Abyss).
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Creative Director
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Yes, but what is it about Leng or the Dark Tapestry that make Lovecraftian horrors percolate forth from them? I see the Abyss (especially the deeper regions) as a sort of Platonic ideal that the other chaotic evil horrors in the multiverse are ultimately sourced from. Not necessarily that they're all (extraplanar: Abyss).
Leng: It was invented by Lovecraft, the same guy who invented Lovecraftian horrors.
The Dark Tapestry: This is a phrase we came up with to call "deep space," because the phrase "deep space" is too sci-fi to bandy about in a fantasy setting. It's not a "new" location at all. It's been there all along, and as established in Lovecraft's writings, that's where pretty much ALL of his monsters come from.
The Abyss was NOT invented by Lovecraft, and therefore I feel it's inappropriate to populate it with his creations (especially when the Abyss is already quite full of creations)—I'd rather keep true to his vision and keep his critters where he put them in the first place—places like Leng and deep space.
Dagon even has one of the best alternate verse for "Old Time Religion":
It was good enough for Dagon
A conservative old pagan
Who still votes for Ronald Reagan
And it's good enough for me!
The Abyss was NOT invented by Lovecraft, and therefore I feel it's inappropriate to populate it with his creationsThere's also the fact that most of Lovecraft's creations are beyond good or evil, so having them issue forth from the plane of chaotic EVIL might not really be the best idea.
I used to feel this way, but I've become more convinced lately that CE (or, sometimes, NE) is the proper alignment for Lovecraftian horrors. Also, it's horrifically inconsistent to have an entire class of beings that refuses to possess an alignment. There's no good reason for it.
Dagon originated as a Philistine deity.
And yet, he is anything but.
My campaign view of Dagon's cosmology:
I treat Dagon as two manifestations of the high priest/oldest servant of Cthulu. In his demon/qlippoth/Abyssal form, he is the manifestation of evil, aquatic, transforming demonic influence on his worshipers, servants and priests. He exists to spread the Abyss's corrupting and destructive touch to all parts of the sea, drown the continents under a torrent of black water, and tear down understanding in place of mystery and ritual. This fufills the evil side of his nature (especially since demons are destructive, raving murderers in Pathfinder, rather then the 3.5 focus on tempting mortals into crimes of passion). This form donates mystical energy to the Outer Gods/ drawn from the destructive powers and endless chaos of the Abyss. Eventually, this worship may allow the Great Old Ones to break free of their tombs and rise once again. Also known as Dagon, the Reaver of the Land, Drowned Misery, or the Terror of the Deep. In this form, his wife, Mother Hydra, competes with him to form a interesting male/female rivalry in the Abyss, which is rare due to the singular nature of demon lords.
For worshipers of great Cthulu, the Great Old Ones, and the Outer Gods, Dagon represents the inevitable change the Elder Gods will bring once they have manifested. He acts as Cthulu's herald, messenger, and favored response to high priestly summons, and interpreter of his will. Dagon also inspires Deep One-human mating through religious ecstasy, drugged rituals, and village raids. He is a directed force of sleeping Cthulu's will, and represents the older amorality the Great Old Ones and the Outer Gods represent (chaotic neutrality/highly destructive entropy/change). Mother Hydra, in this form, acts as his equal rather then rival, and the Deep Ones spread Cthulu's will as their priests and chief minions.