|
In chat tonight as someone asked:
"How strict to the GMs tend to be in regards to Chronicle sheets? I only got to play online, and just kept my googledoc sheet up to date, so I have a 9th level character, but with only nine Chronicles I can reproduce."
My suggestion was to track down the GMs and get replacement chronicles but he suggested it was impossible.
How do you handle a player who hasn't kept his chronicles up to date if he's tracked his progress some other way?
My suggestion that he start a new character and keep better track of chronicles was rather poorly received. Someone else suggested he recreate the Chronicles himself but I'm not entirely comfortable with that.
Thoughts or suggestions?
|
It should be possible to get at least a few. I would insist on a least a handful to be produced as that should be well possible as even if you play online - you need some contact.
I wouldn't insist on every single last one though as that could be difficult. Just enough to convince me that he played these.
Thod
|
|
To be honest I'm not sure I will be GMing him, I'm more curious about what other GMs feel about this. Would you let it fly at a convention if someone showed up at your table with 9 chronicles?
This is a really tough situation. My gut reaction was 'of course not, he's cheating!' But then I think about the number of times my Chronicles have been reviewed, and the number of Chronicles that I review (a very, very small number). Then suddenly I'm punishing this guy for attempting to be honest? That's not cool. I'd probably try to get in touch with the GM(s?) after the fact to gently remind them they are doing their players a huge disservice.
I did have to vouch for one of my local players last year at Scotty's before GenCon as he showed up to play Savage Worlds, not knowing we were playing any PFS there at all and wanted to jump ship, not having his character sheet or Chronicles with him. I told him it was going to be up to the table GM ultimately. Seemed to work out just fine for everyone involved.
Assuming a few of them are tier 5-9 and he can tell you something about some of the mods he claimed to play in, I say game on.
|
|
I would not prevent him playing at the Con - but I would ask to generate at least something afterwards or as Mark above has shown - have a fellow GM vouch for him.
I once travelled with a friend from UK to the US. I had organized a game under a local GM there. Just before we leave to the games store he mentions how proud he was only to have the character sheets with him as he left the chronicles save at home.
I would have vouched as 90% of games at that stage were GMed by me.
Now with online gaming it is less likely that fellow players / GMs will be around to vouch.
So in cases like that someone should be prepared to show more CFO Ickes afterwards or at least make a good effort. Which online systems don't leave traces today of you haven't played?
Aren't there at least discussion to meet, e-mails to organize an online game? While it can be a pain to get 100% - someone should at least show me some effort.
Thod
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
Regarding whether the sessions have been reported: it depends on when those on-line sessions were.
Back when Josh first released permission for online and play-by-post PFS gaming, I had a good amount of time on my hands and GMed a half-dozen on-line games. I mailed out chronicles to players afterwards (real stamped envelopes and everything) and reported the games. Those reports still haven't shown up, years later.
If this fellow were one of my players then, he should know that I'd be happy to supply a replacement chronicle.
--+-
I'm curious as to why he thinks that tracking down GMs would be "impossible". After all, he had previous contact with them.
I'm with Dennis in this. I never want to be in a situation where I tell players "Neither of you have your chronicle sheets. I trust you, Guy on Left, but not you, Guy on Right." Since I want to be able to call some people for cheating under that situation, I need to insist on players having chronicle sheets at my table.
Starting a new character isn't the end of the world.
|
|
Unless you can have someone vouch for you (like other folks suggested in this thread), I don't think I would allow him to play his character. I can understand not having one or two chronicle sheets missing (like for instance more players showed up to an event than they had sheets, so they're waiting to get one the next time they go). But I mean, he has 2/3rds of all his Chronicle sheets missing. That's a pretty significant chunk.
|
|
Before I'd let them play beyond one session, I would want to see a little more effort spent on the player's part. After letting them sit in on the first session, tell 'em to go home and get their 'S' together or they won't be allowed to play that character! This isn't about cheating, it's about discipline and a minimum standard being maintained.
As far as any GM (following the letter of the rules) are concerned, if the sessions are not reported AND he has no Chronicle sheets to prove it, they never happen. If he has a googledoc that has all his information, then he should be able to contact his judges and get his book keeping in order.
I also question (the quality and dedication of) anyone who is running PFS online and not awarding Chronicle sheets to their players...
Don't reward players for being lazy.
|
|
Did he play any of them through the Pathfinder Society Online Collective google group? All of the GMs through that group are registered with an email address so we could get in touch with someone if that is his situation. Also it may be possible to go back through the archives and find the original recruitment thread to see who else played and report the whole table if the archive goes back far enough.
EDIT: and like Neofax I believe I still have scans of every chronicle sheet I've ever sent out online. I eventually threw away the paper copies, but the scans aren't taking up any significant space. Even if the GM has deleted the scans they may still be saved in his email's sent folder.
Ithuriel, tell me about this group.
A group of people that play via VTT on a fairly regular basis:
http://groups.google.com/group/pathfinder-society-online-collective?pli=1
|
|
That's the one. We're a little light on games being offered right now and could use some more regular VTT GMs if you have any inclination for that sort of thing.
Google Groups removed our FAQ, files, and pages sections over the last six months as they trim down what "groups" is all about, but basically the GM can run a table with whatever software he likes though free ones are easier to recruit players. Maptools and TTopRPG are the most common. After the scenario the GM fills out and scans the chronicle sheet then emails it out to the players.
I apologize for the thread-jack, but one more question: does VTT work on an iMac?
MapTool is java based and will run on a Mac with Java installed.
|
Cheating or not? Lets assume not, it's a game. Having a character that's 9th level with a bunch of CR's missing - is not ideal. But neither is the guy that rolls a 14 and bumps the table for it to roll a 20. He's obviously tracked a bit of his character and that's enough.
I'd ask him to get the CR's of those modules he'd run through, so that he at least has them, even if there is no GM listing. At least that way the GP, PA, and items available could be tracked. After the session, I might quickly use Herolab or something to make sure his other aspects of his character are legit.
Keep PDF's of your character (at least) on your Phone, but I might scan my CR's now too, just to be extra safe.
|
|
About the VTT's, on the google groups, JP just posted a 'rant' about d20Pro and Inferno (which I'm not familiar with) and the different VTT's with TableTop RPG and MapTools.
Besides needing more GM's with VTT experience, we need to be able to utilize the maps more easily from the PDF's. As it is, some are more experienced at blowing the maps up to fit while others have used hand drawn maps.
|
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
|
An additional note on the thread topic: if I were the GM, I would be less suspicious if the 9 chronicles he did have included the costs of raise dead, or adventures where he didn't make any PA, or other set-backs.
If the surviving chronicles recorded sessions that wee all rosy and wildly successful, with max gold and PA, I'd wonder about the whether he just didn't bother to include the sessions where he was turned to stone, lost a ton of money, or had the GM write warnings on his sheet.
IMHO, of course:
Rules are called "Rules" and not "Guidelines" or "Suggestions" for a reason.
When the wide reciever catches a 40 yard pass and his pinky toe goes over the out-of-bounds line on his 50 yard sprint to the end zone for the winning score in the final seconds of the big game, good intentions and "I didn't mean to do it" count for exactly squat.
Keeping up with your chronicle sheets is one of THE most important responsiblities of a PFS player. I'd say he's SOL unless and until he can document every chronicle.
|
As harsh as it seems, at a convention I would have this person either start a new character or play a pre-gen. GMs put a LOT of time into preparing their sessions, so there should be NO reason why they should not put in that little bit of extra effort to get their players the chronicle sheets. On the same vein, it's not that hard to keep sheets of paper in a folder, so I would have no sympathy for the player in this case.
However, if a player had their bag stolen or something along the same vein, I would allow them to play their character and talk to the other judges at the convention as well to allow that, as having stuff stolen really, really sucks.
|
IMHO, of course:
Rules are called "Rules" and not "Guidelines" or "Suggestions" for a reason.
When the wide reciever catches a 40 yard pass and his pinky toe goes over the out-of-bounds line on his 50 yard sprint to the end zone for the winning score in the final seconds of the big game, good intentions and "I didn't mean to do it" count for exactly squat.
Keeping up with your chronicle sheets is one of THE most important responsiblities of a PFS player. I'd say he's SOL unless and until he can document every chronicle.
+1
I know it sounds harsh. But the players and GMs both have a responsibility to keep things in order for each character. I'd look at what he had and say that it looked more like he was level 4.
You can't prove intentions. I don't get the feeling this guy cheated (or meant to) but I can't prove he didn't. I'd err on the cautious side. He can still play a level 7 pregen if he /has/ to play that high level mod.
I run a lot of online games for another OP campaign that requires sheet tracking. There is a huge responsibility in keeping things clear and precise on the sheets. (Which reminds me I owe one out for the last table I ran)
I honestly hope he can track down his former judges and get the sheets somehow (or at least some of them).
|
When my wife threw away my Character with Chronicle sheets, Josh said that was alright as long as I kept a printout of all my reported Scenarios *Which was all of them*, but I could not buy anything off those chronicle sheets. I would suggest he does the same. I understand that some were not reported, but where all not reported? If he can't come up with at least a majority of his games reported I would be a little suspicious.
Developer
|
When my wife threw away my Character with Chronicle sheets, Josh said that was alright as long as I kept a printout of all my reported Scenarios *Which was all of them*, but I could not buy anything off those chronicle sheets. I would suggest he does the same. I understand that some were not reported, but where all not reported? If he can't come up with at least a majority of his games reported I would be a little suspicious.
Agreed, in my early days of PFS there were no local games for me to play, so I did quite a bit online. Everything was reported and every GM emailed me a scan of my chronicle sheet.
To be missing that many and claim the majority unreported is simply too suspicious. I'd have him play a pregen or start a new character. Things get lost, and sometimes GMs forget to report, but the player has to press to the issue if it goes on too long.
With the situation as I understand it there's no way to know gold spent, items available, CPA or TPA. This does not result in a character playable for organized play, in my mind.
|
|
Did he play any of them through the Pathfinder Society Online Collective google group? All of the GMs through that group are registered with an email address so we could get in touch with someone if that is his situation. Also it may be possible to go back through the archives and find the original recruitment thread to see who else played and report the whole table if the archive goes back far enough.
It's possible, but the conversation I had was fairly brief and I don't want to dip into conjecture or really dig into additional details because I wanted to keep this anonymous.
EDIT: and like Neofax I believe I still have scans of every chronicle sheet I've ever sent out online. I eventually threw away the paper copies, but the scans aren't taking up any significant space. Even if the GM has deleted the scans they may still be saved in his email's sent folder.
I use gmail so every in-going and outgoing message about the games are archived and I also keep copies for quite a while. Most of the chronicles I've GMed are on my hard drive too.
|
|
When my wife threw away my Character with Chronicle sheets, Josh said that was alright as long as I kept a printout of all my reported Scenarios *Which was all of them*, but I could not buy anything off those chronicle sheets. I would suggest he does the same. I understand that some were not reported, but where all not reported? If he can't come up with at least a majority of his games reported I would be a little suspicious.
I hadn't heard Josh say that but it's a reasonable suggestion if I bump into him again I'll mention it. I think most people are a little more forgiving than the big toe standard mentioned above but it seems to me missing half your chronicles and having many of the missing ones be unreported is more than a big toe thing.
I'd be a lot more inclined to be flexible about it if he'd said there were online reports for the missing sessions but (but then he'd have a way to track down the GMs too).
|
|
As the player in question...
Here is a layout of my PC's progression:
Legend:
# = module played, reported, found in report on paizo.com
(#) = module played, not reported, not found on paizo.com
-paper = paper Chronicle possessed
-pdf = electronic Chronicle possessed
2
(5) -paper
(13) -paper
4
24 -paper
(1) <--- I have nothing on this one. I have no contact information for this GM. The session was not scheduled on the Online Collective. Fortunately, it took place before the 3.5-PF conversion, if that means anything.
7
29
30
23
9
18
19
48 -pdf
49
50
51
52
27 -pdf
12 -pdf
31 -pdf
26 -pdf
32 -pdf
2-04 -pdf
(56) -pdf
-Matt
|
Director of Brand Strategy
|
Matt, as the GM for two of those sessions before I worked here I'll get you those two. Now that I have a scanner (which I didn't at the time), I'll be able to do so this weekend. Just send me an email at mark.moreland@paizo.com with the email you'd like to receive them at and I'll get them scanned for you.
|
|
I ran number 7 and 56 for you. I'll check in a second to be sure I still have the sheet for 7. I hadn't realized 56 was unreported, but you are right and I'll fix that too. I'm pretty sure SirGuido ran 51 and 52 for you so he can get you those.
And THIS is what I love about the PFS community, how people are willing to step up and help out.
|
|
As the player in question...
snip
-Matt
Mattastrophic
Great Kudos to you for coming forward here. These boards too often combine a necessary discussion with personal data that can end up in lynch justice.
My question here - and maybe you answer as well as someone on the accused side - what are alternatives to deal with issues instead going here on the board.
I'm asking not because of you but because of a more serious issue. My venture captain has been notified but I currently seem unable to discuss with him per telefone.
Dave where are you - isn't your job 24/7
Thod
|
|
2 -accounted for
(5) -paper
(13) -paper
4 -accounted for
24 -paper
(1) <--- I have nothing on this one. I have no contact information for this GM. The session was not scheduled on the Online Collective. Fortunately, it took place before the 3.5-PF conversion, if that means anything.
7 -pdf
...
Thanks guys.
Now, what about the totally-missing scenario #1? If I put forth the effort of tracking down GMs for the remaining ten Chronicles, is my PC legal if a GM decides to audit me, or does PFS adhere to the big-toe standard?
-Matt
|
|
2 -accounted for
(5) -paper
(13) -paper
4 -accounted for
24 -paper
(1) <--- I have nothing on this one. I have no contact information for this GM. The session was not scheduled on the Online Collective. Fortunately, it took place before the 3.5-PF conversion, if that means anything.
7 -pdf
...Thanks guys.
Now, what about the totally-missing scenario #1? If I put forth the effort of tracking down GMs for the remaining ten Chronicles, is my PC legal if a GM decides to audit me, or am I, as Mr. Ogre put it, screwed?
-Matt
If you can track down the GMs or have the ones missing from reports, great. Not so sure about the completely missing one. You come across from your other posts as someone fairly trustworthy so I, personally, wouldn't raise an issue. Random Joe Schmoe would be an issue.
If I can help you with printing missing Chronicles and surrogate signatures to get you there, I'd be happy to help!
Michael, I have to raise issue with this. If you have no knowledge of the player having actually played the slot other than their word, isn't this blatant cheating? If I say I ran all the mods to be 12th would you just hand over the signed sheets?
As I said above, I trust Matt as someone I am fairly familiar with, but I would call into question any mod that anyone had just randomly signed because a player told them they had played it. I'd trust a missing sheet more.
|
|
Michael, I have to raise issue with this. If you have no knowledge of the player having actually played the slot other than their word, isn't this blatant cheating?
Raise issue if you'd like, but your assumption is false.
I was referring to the reported sessions that are in the system, where he may not be able to track down the original GM.You should be very cautious when throwing around a term like cheating, rhetorically presented or otherwise.
|
|
I'm not going to be at paizocon to provide a gm voucher, but for what its worth Matt has been playing this character online from season 0 when Mark (as a fellow player) was setting up a venue for online players to coordinate. I didn't run many of those games, but I've seen him signing up for them as they come along since then. I'm certain there is no issue of cheating or slipping in extra chronicles here, just a lack of official record keeping. With the online games we typically use a shorthand tracking system (running tally of wealth gained, items bought/sold, etc) attached to our character sheets so that it can be one sheet of text for the GM to look over rather than a 30 page pdf. It is understood that if there were an issue you should have the documents to back it up, but it rarely (if ever) comes up.
|
|
An update:
Thanks to all you guys for helping out; I've narrowed my remaining missing Chronicles down to three GMs who I'll be getting in contact with. (Four if we include the Chronicles Mark'll be getting to me, from way back in the retro days of PFS... Wow, that sure was a long time ago... when was it, 1977? Didn't Mark sport an afro back then?)
As for the totally-vanished scenario #1, I am assuming that Pathfinder Society's standards are not as severe as some of the posters here say, so I'll either A) play it, perhaps under Chris Mortika, or B) slide a GM credit for a low-level module in there.
As to what happened to the Chronicles, my guess is that I missed the folder containing them when I backed up my hard drive a year ago, and since we're approaching two years since I've played this character in a face-to-face game, I never really noticed.
-Matt
|
|
Glad things seems to be working out. I know I have all my chronicles, but many of the games I've played never got reported. Too bad the systems couldn't be for the GM to his/her credit only AFTER reporting the session. Players need to keep up on their sheets, but these sessions really need to get reported too.
|
|
Michael, I have to raise issue with this. If you have no knowledge of the player having actually played the slot other than their word, isn't this blatant cheating?
Raise issue if you'd like, but your assumption is false.
I was referring to the reported sessions that are in the system, where he may not be able to track down the original GM.You should be very cautious when throwing around a term like cheating, rhetorically presented or otherwise.
Of course that's fine Micahel, it's just not what it appeared to be what you were saying as you hadn't put the limit in your previous post.
And I don't fell the need to be cautious when I'm asking a question. If there had been an actual accusation, then things would be different.
|
|
An update:
Thanks to all you guys for helping out; I've narrowed my remaining missing Chronicles down to three GMs who I'll be getting in contact with. (Four if we include the Chronicles Mark'll be getting to me, from way back in the retro days of PFS... Wow, that sure was a long time ago... when was it, 1977? Didn't Mark sport an afro back then?)
As for the totally-vanished scenario #1, I am assuming that Pathfinder Society's standards are not as severe as some of the posters here say, so I'll either A) play it, perhaps under Chris Mortika, or B) slide a GM credit for a low-level module in there.
As to what happened to the Chronicles, my guess is that I missed the folder containing them when I backed up my hard drive a year ago, and since we're approaching two years since I've played this character in a face-to-face game, I never really noticed.
-Matt
I'm glad things are working out for you Matt