I've been working on a way to remove the Magic Item Economy from the Kingdom Building rules, by rebalancing all the buildings and increasing the amount of Economy that many buildings provide, while eliminating any mention of Minor/Medium/Major items.
I've got a pretty decent formula for this, and I'm liking the results so far, but keep in mind that I haven't actually started running Kingmaker yet, so I can't playtest my numbers. Therefore, before I share the results, I need to get some feedback from people who have actually already run Kingmaker and may have a better perspective on the ideal results.
Theoretical Explanation:
To over-simplify: If two otherwise-identical buildings ONLY added Economy, and one cost 6 BP and added +2 Economy, and the other cost 60 BP, should it add +20 economy (3 BP per +1 Econ), or should it add +12 Economy (because larger values cost more points)?
I think that in the later game, the kingdom will generate a lot of BPs and the greater limitation will be on the number of buildings they can place in a turn. In this case, it might make it worthwhile to place larger buildings that have a slower return on investment. On the other hand, is it really reasonable to set things up so that it takes 2 to 4 years of kingdom turns to recoup the investment on a Waterfront or other large, economically-relevant building?
IMPORTANT ASSUMPTIONS:
2) I do not allow multiple of the same building within the same district (with a number of specific exceptions, e.g. House, Noble Villa, and Piers).
3) I have nearly 90 different buildings defined.
So...as the PCs' kingdom develops:
1) How many BPs per turn does a kingdom need to be able to generate, at a minimum, before starting the war phase of the adventure path? 100? 50? 20? What is the absolute minimum that you can get by with?
2) Is there an amount of BPs per turn that becomes unwieldy? If the kingdom generates 200 BP/turn, is that manageable? How about 500? 1000?
3) Which is actually the worse problem in your experience, too many or too few BPs?
4) What would an optimal amount of BPs/turn look like (in the later game)?
If my group ever ends up with sufficient spare BP/turn that they can't spend it, I expect they'll either start up on expensive projects with lesser returns (upgrade Roads to Highways, at an as yet to be determined exhorbitant cost), or they'll start putting together a standing army.
If my group ever ends up with sufficient spare BP/turn that they can't spend it, I expect they'll either start up on expensive projects with lesser returns (upgrade Roads to Highways, at an as yet to be determined exhorbitant cost), or they'll start putting together a standing army.
It sounds like you're satisfied with your group's current BP/turn. About how much are they generating? What adventure are you in?
They've literally just started building a kingdom (6 months in to the first year), they are pulling in around 5 BP/turn if they make the roll, which is not an absolute.
It's mostly a matter of I know my players. They're all capable of 'gaming the system', but generally won't do so to the detriment of the game, and I've made it clear that ridiculous actions will have consequences.
The first thing they thought about when it came to roads was not 'How much Economy does this get me?', but rather 'How do I speed up communication between settlements?'
They built the city of Olegrod a little earlier than was optimal because they promised Oleg and Svetlana that they'd do so as soon as possible (the capital is on the Tuskwater)
If and When they get large incomes, I expect that they are going to look at monuments and large projects, rather than cheese, and I expect they'll start filling in the holes in the kingdom to have more cohesive territory (if they don't start bulking out the kingdom soon, Grigori will add 'the stringbean kingdom' to his rants)
Well, I've been using Jason Nelson's suggested changes to the kingdom building and mass combat rules. We're now almost 6 years into the game and just finishing book 3. If you're interested, I've copied most of his suggestions onto my campaign forum in the game mechanics thread here: Tem's Kingmaker Campaign
To answer your specific questions:
1. About 25 BP/turn would be the minimum to wage war as written in part 5 of the AP. The reason I say this is that the AP assumes the PCs can field the equivalent of a CR 11 army. Given that they'll probably need at least two CR 9 armies to satisfy that requirement, we can look up the consumption of the cheapest CR 9 army and it's 4. Since this is being paid 4 times a month, that means a cost of 32 BP per month. This can also be offset with farms and the difference paid by whatever amount the PCs have saved in reserve. Even if they only save up for a month or two, that 50BP will go a very long way covering this shortfall.
2. I would say even 100BP/month starts to get quite unwieldly. The PCs can easily keep numerous armies in the field (A set of armies equivalent to CR 13 would only cost 64BP/month) which would trounce all opposition. This still leaves them over 30BP/month to build cities and claim further hexes. In my opinion, once you get to this level, the game is no longer a challenge.
3. Too many BP is far worse a problem as the PC's kingdom can no longer be kept in check. The way the rules are written, they'll have nothing to fear in the form of events or enemy armies unless you start adding a lot of material from outside the AP.
4. If my players have done a good job, I expect they'll be able to make about 50 BP/turn by the end of the game. If they're smart and put a couple months worth of BP in the bank, then waging war should be fairly easy but not without risk - particularly if the war becomes protracted or they start losing farms to enemy armies. If things don't turn out well for them in one way or another they may only have as little as 35-40 BP/turn but this is still quite manageable. I want them to have a bit more than the minimum so that they have some flexibility in the types of armies they can field.
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Well, I've been using Jason Nelson's suggested changes to the kingdom building and mass combat rules. We're now almost 6 years into the game and just finishing book 3. If you're interested, I've copied most of his suggestions onto my campaign forum in the game mechanics thread here: Tem's Kingmaker Campaign
To answer your specific questions:
1. About 25 BP/turn would be the minimum to wage war as written in part 5 of the AP. The reason I say this is that the AP assumes the PCs can field the equivalent of a CR 11 army. Given that they'll probably need at least two CR 9 armies to satisfy that requirement, we can look up the consumption of the cheapest CR 9 army and it's 4. Since this is being paid 4 times a month, that means a cost of 32 BP per month. This can also be offset with farms and the difference paid by whatever amount the PCs have saved in reserve. Even if they only save up for a month or two, that 50BP will go a very long way covering this shortfall.
2. I would say even 100BP/month starts to get quite unwieldly. The PCs can easily keep numerous armies in the field (A set of armies equivalent to CR 13 would only cost 64BP/month) which would trounce all opposition. This still leaves them over 30BP/month to build cities and claim further hexes. In my opinion, once you get to this level, the game is no longer a challenge.
3. Too many BP is far worse a problem as the PC's kingdom can no longer be kept in check. The way the rules are written, they'll have nothing to fear in the form of events or enemy armies unless you start adding a lot of material from outside the AP.
4. If my players have done a good job, I expect they'll be able to make about 50 BP/turn by the end of the game. If they're smart and put a couple months worth of BP in the bank, then waging war should be fairly easy but not without risk - particularly if the war becomes protracted or they start losing farms to enemy armies. If things don't turn...
Thnx Tem big fan of your posts. My group just killed the Staglord but still has the kobolds and mites to deal with. It was kinda weird they explored all of the left side of the map down.
A couple brief comments:
War is supposed to hurt. It's supposed to be a huge tax on the Kingdom to field an army (look at what the enterprise of war has done to civilizations in the real world).
The armies aren't going to get feilded for that long. Given that most move 2 hexes a day, and the enemy stronghold is only 18 hexes away from Oleg's, the "war" in book 5 doesn't take hardly any time at all to resolve in gametime. This means the upkeep is isn't a huge deal.
Remember, book 6 starts soon after book 5, and at that point, there's only 1 or 2 months left in the whole campaign. So the question of "what happens if my PCs want to keep a standing army around for protection?" is somewhat moot.
The arguement that there is a "need" for a magic-item-economy is a little overblown.
A couple brief comments:
War is supposed to hurt. It's supposed to be a huge tax on the Kingdom to field an army (look at what the enterprise of war has done to civilizations in the real world).
The armies aren't going to get feilded for that long. Given that most move 2 hexes a day, and the enemy stronghold is only 18 hexes away from Oleg's, the "war" in book 5 doesn't take hardly any time at all to resolve in gametime. This means the upkeep is isn't a huge deal.
That's an interesting comment. I expect the war in our campaign to last quite a bit longer than that. If my PCs put all their eggs in one basket and send everything to the enemy stronghold, the enemy reserves will start rampaging through their unprotected country and perhaps take out some of their own cities. Also - if an inferior army is being "chased" by the PC armies, they'll run trying to keep ahead of them. Some of the enemy armies have a speed greater than 2 which could make them very hard to track down. In short, I expect the war to be much more of a long chess match. I may also rule that any given combat takes a day which will further slow things down a bit.
I haven't thought everything through yet, but I may have "daily" army activities to help formalize how things work during war. Basically, make something like initiative checks for each army each day (perhaps a profession(soldier) check from each leader?). Then, in order, each army can either: a) move up to its speed, b) attack an army in the same square, c) rest, or d) wait to see what other armies do (like delaying in combat). If an army is attacked before it has had its chance to act, it doesn't get a choice and must fight.
I can easily see the war taking months even before the (potential) siege starts.
The arguement that there is a "need" for a magic-item-economy is a little overblown.
Whole-heartedly agree.
A couple brief comments:
War is supposed to hurt. It's supposed to be a huge tax on the Kingdom to field an army (look at what the enterprise of war has done to civilizations in the real world).
The armies aren't going to get feilded for that long. Given that most move 2 hexes a day, and the enemy stronghold is only 18 hexes away from Oleg's, the "war" in book 5 doesn't take hardly any time at all to resolve in gametime. This means the upkeep is isn't a huge deal.
Remember, book 6 starts soon after book 5, and at that point, there's only 1 or 2 months left in the whole campaign. So the question of "what happens if my PCs want to keep a standing army around for protection?" is somewhat moot.
The arguement that there is a "need" for a magic-item-economy is a little overblown.
So, how about you post the changes from your campaign? I am still hoping you'll do so, because they sound very good. :)
If you want to get rid of the magic item economy, you should probably allow the Kingdom to sell it's extra farm production for BPs. Only seems fair, and it would cut down on the amount of building effect changes you'd need to make.
I'm pretty sure the magic item economy works okay as long as the players don't break it through excessive min-maxing (we'll see, only been kingdom-building for 15 months), and it does seem to represent the way the setting actually has to work, judging by the city rules. Of course it rubs a lot of people the wrong way, when they have preconceived notions of how the setting should work.
-Kle.
I think one of the major questions which offends a lot of players sensibilities is "who the hell buys all those major items?". If your rinky-dink barony in the middle of nowhere sells five 100.000 GP items per month, then it rightly shatters a lot of peoples suspension of disbelief.
I think that the inescapable conclusion to be reached from reading the setting is that Golarion is littered with magic items, to the point that farmers sometimes hit them plowing their fields.
Oh, that's just what we need - another source of magic items in the kingdom :D
I'm also about to start Rivers Run Red for my group. I'll be trying to tone down the magic item economy too. Some Economy bonuses for excess Farm consumption, plus bigger Resource bonuses should help, I reckon.
As far as fighting the war goes (well off in the future, that one), I'm thinking that this newborn kingdom shouldn't stand a cat in hell's chance against Pitax. I'm considering using a Pendragon scenario (I think the siege of Joyous Gard) as a framework to have the PCs rushing around calling in favours and making alliances to even the odds.
One question to those who have started the kingdom building fun. What phase do you begin at? Did you have the Leadership posts filled prior to the first Upkeep phase? Or do you start the first month with Improvements, to claim hex 1?
Cheers
Baldy
I think that the inescapable conclusion to be reached from reading the setting is that Golarion is littered with magic items, to the point that farmers sometimes hit them plowing their fields.Oh, that's just what we need - another source of magic items in the kingdom :D
I'm also about to start Rivers Run Red for my group. I'll be trying to tone down the magic item economy too. Some Economy bonuses for excess Farm consumption, plus bigger Resource bonuses should help, I reckon.
As far as fighting the war goes (well off in the future, that one), I'm thinking that this newborn kingdom shouldn't stand a cat in hell's chance against Pitax. I'm considering using a Pendragon scenario (I think the siege of Joyous Gard) as a framework to have the PCs rushing around calling in favours and making alliances to even the odds.
One question to those who have started the kingdom building fun. What phase do you begin at? Did you have the Leadership posts filled prior to the first Upkeep phase? Or do you start the first month with Improvements, to claim hex 1?
Cheers
Baldy
It's rather late to be responding to this, but the rules specifically say to skip the Upkeep phase when you have no hexes (such as before you claim the first one), so you start with Improvements.