Sorcerer Build Advice


Advice


My sorcerer is coming up on 8th level and I just wanted some input on what 4th level spell to get for her. And I'd also like some input on her overall build. ^_^

Anyway, just a reminder, I built her somewhat thinking about flavor. So she's not purely optimized.

I have a infernal bloodline, halfing sorcerer named Yarra Halftree.

We used a point buy stat system, with 25 points. So she has a str of 5, dex 18, con 10, int 14, wis 8, cha 22. (She has a headband of Charisma.)

Her feats are: horseback casting (This is a custom feat that gives me a +4 to concentration checks from casting from horseback.), Spell Focus (Enchantments), Point blank Shot, Precise Shot, Spell Penetration

And her current spells are:

0: acid splash, light, ghost sounds, mage hand, detect magic, mending, message

1: magic missile, protection from good, charm person, reduce person, shield, summon monster 1

2: scorching ray, hideous laughter, invisibility, glitterdust

3: lightening bolt, suggestion, fly

The other members of the party are two rouges, a ranger and a cleric. We also have a fighter and a druid who only come occasionally.

My character's strategy is to usually buff with reduce person, shield, fly and sometimes invisibility, and then zoom around blasting and enchanting things and staying behind the cleric as she's very squishy. She also has a pony with some armor and buffs when flying isn't viable. But sometimes she gets stupid and runs out in the middle of things without thinking and almost dies...

But anyway, the next feats I am planning on getting are improved spell focus (enchantments), toughness, and weapon focus (ray).

And next level I am going to switch out summon monster 1 for grease. I got that in the hopes of summoning things to help the rouges flank, but that strategy is proving largely not helpful.

And for my fourth level spell I was thinking Improved Invisibility, Black Tentacles, or Elemental Form 1. But I only want Elemental form if I can cast spells in it, and the rules are not clear to me on weather or not you can.

The rules state "While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon." And I know elementals can speak, but do they have the proper fine motor control for the somatic components?

So, elemental body would make for some pretty great buffs in combat, and allow to to circumvent a ton of obstacles out of combat.

Improved invisibility would allow me to be practically unhitable in combat. Especially considering we don't really run into a lot of magic users. Though I suspect our DM will start throwing in some potions of see invisibility if I take this spell. And if I take this spell should I drop regular invisibility?

Black tentacles would be awesome for controlling the battle field, and diversifying the kinds of spells I have, but it wouldn't fit in very thematically with my other choices and my play style.

So, what do you guys think of the overall build and my next options?

Sorry for the tl;dr! I just like talking about my character! There is so much more I could say. XD;


Do need to double-check here: are you just about to hit level 7? Because if you are, you don't get 4th level spells as a sorcerer; they get those at level 8.


First of all hi, welcome.

My first piece of advice is always have a plan laid out for your character. You can change this plan and adapt to things, but always have a plan. Don't make decisions at the time or as you go along. These are permanent and life-determining choices for your character and they should be given careful thought...

Second, sorcerers have to be crafted and crafted carefully. Metamagics can augment your spells known and you should always have at least one in order to leverage those even levels where you only know one spell of your top level. But craft a sorcerer holistically rather than piecemeal.

A few comments:

There are no such things as potions of see invisibility as this is not a spell that you can cast upon others.

You should likely look to drop invisibility in favor of greater invisibility at some point.

Getting rid of summoner monster 1 needs to happen. Whether you replace it with grease or another spell is a question you should spend a good deal of time upon.

Sardoodledum wrote:


I have a infernal bloodline, halfing sorcerer named Yarra Halftree.

We used a point buy stat system, with 25 points. So she has a str of 5, dex 18, con 10, int 14, wis 8, cha 22. (She has a headband of Charisma.)

Her feats are: horseback casting (This is a custom feat that gives me a +4 to concentration checks from casting from horseback.), Spell Focus (Enchantments), Point blank Shot, Precise Shot, Spell Penetration

So, what do you guys think of the overall build and my next options?

I think that you are over-invested in archery feats and under-invested in metamagic feats.

One of the benefits of being mounted for a sorcerer is to move while casting a full-round action spell (i.e. metamagic'd).

For this investment in ranged attacks, you only have scorching ray for it.

You might wish to pick up a few spells, perhaps touch spells that you could parlay into ranged touch spells via the reach spell metmagic feat.

You likely would serve your party well by having haste as a known spell as you seem to have a decent number of PCs that attack with weapons.

Lastly I'm not sure I'm counting your stat points right here:

You spent:
STR 5 (7-2racial) -4pts
INT 14 5pts
WIS 08 -2pts
DEX 18(16+2racial)10pts
CON 10 0pts
CHA 22 (17+2racial+1bump+2headband) 13pts

Is your WIS a 7 instead of an 8?

-James


Patcher wrote:
Do need to double-check here: are you just about to hit level 7? Because if you are, you don't get 4th level spells as a sorcerer; they get those at level 8.

You're right, I'm approaching level 8. That was a typo. Edit: Fix'd!

james maissen wrote:

There are no such things as potions of see invisibility as this is not a spell that you can cast upon others.

Oh, you're right. My DM made an error.

What metamagic feats do you recommend? I was holding off on getting any because the ones that seemed worthwhile raised my spell level too much at lover levels.

And I would like to point out that I get a lot of utility out of scorching ray, and I intend to focus on rays and enchantments.

Thanks for the advice! ^_^

And as to my stats:

Str base: 7 :-4 pts
Dex: 16 : +10 pts
Con base: 9 : -1 pt
Int: 14 : +5 pts
Wis: 8 : -2 pts
Cha base: 18 +17 pts

All together equals 25. I triple checked this and had someone else look at it because I'm notoriously bad at addition and make lots of little mistakes.

Liberty's Edge

For lower levels:

Get Haste. Possibly replacing Lightning Bolt if necessary. It's a fantastic spell, both thematically and mechanically. Dispel Magic is also nice, but probably not worth replacing an existing spell, or taking befor Haste.

Replacing Shield with Mage Armor and maybe getting a Wand of Shield for when you really need it is a very good idea. You can, at this level and above, have Mage Armor up all day instead of needing to cast Shield once every combat.

For fourth level see this thread.

Some of the later advce is tailored to that character's build, but the early advice is pretty generic.

Short version: Black Tentacles, Freedom of Movement, Dimension Door, Confusion, Charm Monster, and Shadow Conjuration are all widely considered very good.


Sardoodledum wrote:


And as to my stats:

Str base: 7 :-4 pts
Dex: 16 : +10 pts
Con base: 9 : -1 pt
Int: 14 : +5 pts
Wis: 8 : -2 pts
Cha base: 18 +17 pts

All together equals 25. I triple checked this and had someone else look at it because I'm notoriously bad at addition and make lots of little mistakes.

Ah, for the record you'd be better off if you had planned ahead on your bumps.

I missed that you said 25pt buy and was thinking that you had a 20pt buy. As it stands in essence you are down to a 22pt buy from this.

I understand that you intend to 'focus' on two different things (ranged attacks and enchantments). What I'm saying is that I think that you are over-extended here.

Also what, besides scorching ray, are you planning on taking that needs a ranged attack roll?

As to metamagics I would suggest reach spell as it is VERY versatile. I would also consider persistent, daze and quicken though the later two at higher levels.

I'd also consider leadership.

And while I'm responding again, I would suggest dancing lights as a cantrip. I think you'll find it more useful than light to the point you might eventually get rid of light.

-James


tl/dr, I would say go for empower spell/confusion as you seems to lack decent aoe spells. and pick up dimension door/haste on level 9.

What metamagic feat you want depends on your characters focus, in this case rays/enhancements, you will have a hard time finding a metamagic that suits both of these types, reach is always handy to have, but, the reach on most rays and enhancements should already be sufficient, the two alternatives I see here, is persistent or empower, they are both worth taking in my opinion, but which one you take, if any, will greatly influence your choice of spells as you gain new ones. Taking empower would "give" you a level 4 empowered scorching ray, and later level 5 empowered lighting bolt, so you would need no new blasting spells for a long time period, but taking persistent can help in succeeding with that important charm, or laughter spell.

As selecting spells, if you want to help your party the next time you can pick a level 3 spell, take haste, with two rogues and a ranger, nothing else will be near it in efficiency at this level.

But now on to level 4 spells, every spell mentioned by deadmanwalking are worth thinking about(apart from Freedom of Movement, not on the sorcerer spell list if I recall?), I really, really recommend getting dimension door, but not without waiting until you get your second level 4 spell, or taking empower spell/persistent spell, so you have at least one offensive spell in your arsenal at your highest spell level.

With your focus on enhancements both confusion and charm monster should be strong contenders, together with enervation, which I would rate as one of the best rays in the game, if not the best.

For your character confusion just seems like a better version of black tentacles, as long as you do not face a lot of undeads. if you are searching for a battlefield control spell.

Also greater invisibility would be a great boon for your party, not only for your survival, but also for buffing your rogues so they can get of their sneak attacks without any problems.


I believe you can make potions of target:you spells. You are still a creature, and the potion requirement is that the spell targets one or more creatures.

For example, a potion of shield is perfectly reasonable.

Liberty's Edge

Melissa Litwin wrote:

I believe you can make potions of target:you spells. You are still a creature, and the potion requirement is that the spell targets one or more creatures.

For example, a potion of shield is perfectly reasonable.

No you can't, it's in the Item Crafting rules under potions as an explicit limitation. A lot of people don't notice it. Hell, I didn't till it was pointed out to me.

It's here. Specifically, under "Creating Potions".

I think it's the lack of mention in the actual "Potions" section that throws people off.


Sardoodledum wrote:

My sorcerer is coming up on 8th level and I just wanted some input on what 4th level spell to get for her. And I'd also like some input on her overall build. ^_^

Anyway, just a reminder, I built her somewhat thinking about flavor. So she's not purely optimized.

I have a infernal bloodline, halfing sorcerer named Yarra Halftree.

We used a point buy stat system, with 25 points. So she has a str of 5, dex 18, con 10, int 14, wis 8, cha 22. (She has a headband of Charisma.)

Her feats are: horseback casting (This is a custom feat that gives me a +4 to concentration checks from casting from horseback.), Spell Focus (Enchantments), Point blank Shot, Precise Shot, Spell Penetration

And her current spells are:

0: acid splash, light, ghost sounds, mage hand, detect magic, mending, message

1: magic missile, protection from good, charm person, reduce person, shield, summon monster 1

2: scorching ray, hideous laughter, invisibility, glitterdust

3: lightening bolt, suggestion, fly

The other members of the party are two rouges, a ranger and a cleric. We also have a fighter and a druid who only come occasionally.

My character's strategy is to usually buff with reduce person, shield, fly and sometimes invisibility, and then zoom around blasting and enchanting things and staying behind the cleric as she's very squishy. She also has a pony with some armor and buffs when flying isn't viable. But sometimes she gets stupid and runs out in the middle of things without thinking and almost dies...

But anyway, the next feats I am planning on getting are improved spell focus (enchantments), toughness, and weapon focus (ray).

And next level I am going to switch out summon monster 1 for grease. I got that in the hopes of summoning things to help the rouges flank, but that strategy is proving largely not helpful.

And for my fourth level spell I was thinking Improved Invisibility, Black Tentacles, or Elemental Form 1. But I only want Elemental form if I can cast spells in it, and the rules are not...

As others have stated, I also believe that you are overinvested into archery compared to your spell selection and theme.

Working with those, I would recommend you choose appropriate spells, such as enervation (4th level) or ray of frost (0th level).
Generally speaking, there are many great 4th level spells available. Several have been mentioned, I would add dragon breath to those. It's quite versatile and flexible. Also I would recommend you pick up resist energy at some point of time...
Focused spell might be a really nice feat for you if you went with the enchantment school. Especially for mass enchantment spells such as confusion it would be helpful.
Greater spell focus is certainly nice, since enchantment relies even more heavily on saves than most other schools.

As for your question concerning elementals casting spell, there is a lot of discussion about that topic. Personally, I am in the camp that does not allow spellcasting in elemental form, but it really depends on your GM. Unless someone can point me to an official clarfication on the topic? :-)


Sangalor wrote:
As for your question concerning elementals casting spell, there is a lot of discussion about that topic. Personally, I am in the camp that does not allow spellcasting in elemental form, but it really depends on your GM. Unless someone can point me to an official clarfication on the topic? :-)

That.

Ask your DM about that.


One thing I would like to add to the non-casting in elemental form: I would actually allow it with eschew materials and still spell. After all, elementals can speak, so no problem with the verbal components then.
However, if you require a focus (such as for true strike), you have to have it around somehow (i.e. not having it merged into your form when you transformed).


Fatespinner wrote:
Elementals have arms/hands ...

I wonder where this comes from. It's frequently brought up, but when I look at the images and and at the description of the elementals, I find the following:

Earth: "Most earth elementals look like terrestrial animals made out of rock, earth, or even crystal, with glowing gemstones for eyes."
Air: "Although all air elementals of a similar size have identical statistics, the exact appearance of an air elemental can vary wildly between individuals. One might be an animated vortex of wind and smoke, while another might be a smoky bird-like creature with glowing eyes and wind for wings."
Fire: "Fire elementals vary in appearance—they usually manifest as coiling serpentine forms made of smoke and flame, but some fire elementals take on shapes more akin to humans, demons, or other monsters in order to increase the terror of their sudden appearance. "
Water: "As with other elementals, all water elementals have their own unique shapes and appearances. Most appear as wave-like creatures with vaguely humanoid faces and smaller wave “arms” to either side."

Though there is some room for interpretation and thus a gray area, the general feel and setup does not allow for hands, particularly not for the fine movements I imagine to be required for somatic components...

But as I said before, there is a great deal of discussion about that topic - ask your GM about that :-)


Sangalor look at the fire elemental you just quoted:

"shapes more akin to humans demons, or other monsters..."

Elementals have a huge range of forms and could have hands mouths, or anything else.

In fact the earth elemental pictured, and the iirc the fire elemental both have humanoid forms. Heck if you can cast with draconic claws, then I don't see how a highly mutable from like that of an elemental would be a problem.

Even with gauntlets on, or cestus you don't have problems casting -- at that point the shape problem of an elemental looks well not very problematic.


Dragons normally cast spells.

Elementals don't normally cast spells.

I would therefore think you'd need Natural Spell to cast spells in elemental form (without Silent/Still/Eschew), whereas you wouldn't need it for dragon form.


I would strongly consider either black tentacles or enervation. Both are useful almost all the time, and have solid effects. Enervation would also be a nice addition since you seem to like ranged attacking.

If you have access to APG material I strongly suggest picking up expanded arcana as a feat. getting 2 additional 3rd level spells known at level 9 is a considerable value to a sorceror.


Abraham spalding wrote:

Sangalor look at the fire elemental you just quoted:

"shapes more akin to humans demons, or other monsters..."

Elementals have a huge range of forms and could have hands mouths, or anything else.

In fact the earth elemental pictured, and the iirc the fire elemental both have humanoid forms. Heck if you can cast with draconic claws, then I don't see how a highly mutable from like that of an elemental would be a problem.

Even with gauntlets on, or cestus you don't have problems casting -- at that point the shape problem of an elemental looks well not very problematic.

Changed the highlighting to refer to the more relevant section: "akin". It is not equal to a humanoid. For example, akin might mean you got legs, a torso and a head - but no arms. Maybe you got tentacles instead of arms, no fingers... Otter cake also mentioned that elementals usually don't cast spells, while dragons do, so I wouldn't compare those two.

But until there is an official clarification, the discussions will go on and on and on and on... :-)

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