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There has been a big ongoing debate about whether or not the Shield Master feat lets you overcome DR. A big part of the discussion was that if it did overcome DR, it would be "too powerful" (since shield enhancements cost half as much as weapon enhancements). So I have done another analysis of DPR to see which DOES MORE DAMAGE. Per request, it's done at level 10 and level 15. I did an analysis at level 11 <here> using different assumptions. All the methodology is below. So, without further ado, here's a shield and scimitar vs two kukri fighter:
At level 10:
Shield Fighter = 36 DPR
Kukri = 57 DPR
At level 15:
Shield Fighter = 241 DPR
Kukri = 199 DPR
Feel free to do the math yourself!
BUT - it turns out that Damage Reduction didn't make a difference! Both were unable to overcome the CR9 DR, and both overcame the CR15 DR. With the exception of possibly level 11-12, both builds will have about the same enhancement bonus and be overcoming about the same DR. See below for further analysis.
2) You can get a Bashing Finish from a shield bash, it doesn't have to be your main-hand weapon.
3) Bashing Finish does not roll (if you crit while doing a bashing finish, you don't get another Bashing Finish)
4) If you have a shield with a +5 shield enhancement bonus and a +1 flaming, speed weapon enhancement then once you get Shield Master you can treat it as +5 flaming, speed weapon.
Example: If I was min/maxing at level 10 I might not take Shield Slam, since even with it I wouldn't be able to take Shield Master. However a campaign character would take Shield Slam before then so she could take Shield Master at level 11.
Example: I'm not going to spend all my money just to spend it if there's something I want at the next level I should be saving for.
Every feat which directly adds to damage, chance to hit, or number of attacks will be taken.
I'm using humans with a 20 point buy and average player wealth at that level (I need the extra human feat). I used the Two-Weapon Fighter Archetype.
Sword and Shield:
1) Two-Weapon Fighting, Improved Shield Bash, Weapon Focus (Shield)
2) Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
3) Power Attack
4) Weapon Specialization (Shield)
5) Double Slice
6) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7) Shield Slam
8) Improved Critical (Scimitar)
9) Greater Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
10) Critical Focus
11) Shield Master
12) Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
13) Two-Weapon Rend
14) Bashing Finish
15) Greater Weapon Specialization (Shield)
Two Kukris:
1) Two-Weapon Fighting, Double Slice, Weapon Focus (Kukri)
2) Power Attack
3)
4) Weapon Specialization (Kukri)
5)
6) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7)
8) Improved Critical (Kukri)
9) Greater Weapon Focus (Kukri)
10) Critical Focus
11) Two-Weapon Rend
12) Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
13) Greater Weapon Specialization (Kukri)
14)
15)
Level 10 Sword and Shield
Belt of Giant Strength +4
+2 Mithral Breastplate
+4 Light Steel Shield
+3 Scimitar
3326 Gold Remaining
Level 10 Two Kukris
Belt of Giant Strength +4
+2 Mithral Breastplate
+3 Kukri
+3 Kukri
1184 Gold Remaining
Level 15 Sword and Shield
Belt of Physical Perfection +4
+2 Mithral Breastplate
+5 Speed Scimitar
+5 Bashing Light Steel Shield
3326 Gold Remaining
Level 15 Two Kukris
Belt of Physical Perfection +4
+2 Mithral Breastplate
+5 Kukri
+5 Kukri
67184 Gold Remaining (more than enough to get speed on one Kukri next level)
Level 10
Str 21/25
Dex 17
Con 12
Int 7
Wis 10
Cha 7
Level 15
Str 22/26
Dex 17/21
Con 12/16
Int 7
Wis 10
Cha 7
Level 10 - Clay Golem, AC 24, DR10/admantite and bludgeoning
Level 15 - Adult Gold Dragon, AC 30, DR5/Magic
Damage results were calculated for a full attack using the per attack formula of:
(chance of critical hit)*(average critical hit damage - DR) + (chance of non-critical hit)*(average non-critical damage - DR)
Q: Why Speed?
A: Because it makes Bashing Finish proc more often, increases chance of two-weapon rend, applies critical feats more often, and does more overall damage than 3 +3.5 properties (like flaming).
Q: That's assuming that Shield Master lets you apply your shield enhancement against DR, right?
A: Yep. Without that, the total DPR at level 15 is:
Shield Fighter = 211 DPR
Kukri = 199 DPR
Here's the deal: The two builds are almost identical in DPR. The shield fighter couldn't afford a speed weapon until level 15, and the Kukri fighter will have one at level 16 (If he had a speed weapon, he'd be about 3 DPR behind the Shield Fighter. Above level 15, the shield fighter will probably start loading flaming, frost, etc. on the shield for relatively cheap and pull ahead a bit.
BUT: At level 15 the kukri fighter has 5 unspent feats. Critical Feats! Combat Reflexes! Shatter Defenses, Deadly Stroke Line! Critical Feats! (that's what a Kukri fighter is built around). Those things are extremely difficult to plug into a spreadsheet but make a huge difference in actual gameplay.
BUT: The shielded fighter will always have 1-6 more AC than the Kukri fighter (unless he plunges for dodge and two-weapon defense).
My personal opinion after doing this analysis:
Having Shield Master apply your shield enhancement bonus against DR is not overpowered. Shield Master is a possible way to play, and might do more damage, but you give up everything else to do it.
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Two shields aren't needed. A Shielded Fighter can use his shield as a main weapon and also use it for shield bashs.
I didn't use two shields. See assumptions. To be precise, the archetype I used is Two-Weapon Fighter. I used the term "Shield Fighter" in my post to differentiate between the one with a shield and scimitar and the one with two Kukris.
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Nice analysis!
You hit on this somewhat in your analysis, but I don't think it is appropriate to say the shield build does more damage when you have spent 5 extra feats on the build. My suggestion would be to add 2 defensive feats and 3 offensive feats to the Kukri Fighter build and recalculate your offensive numbers.
Suggested feats: Dodge, Two Weapon Defense, Power Attack, Improved Critical, Critical Focus.
Power Attack, Improved Crit and Critical Focus may not be as effective as some of the other critical feats that are out there, but their effect on damage is pretty straightforward.
Two shields aren't needed. A Shielded Fighter can use his shield as a main weapon and also use it for shield bashs.I didn't use two shields. See assumptions. To be precise, the archetype I used is Two-Weapon Fighter. I used the term "Shield Fighter" in my post to differentiate between the one with a shield and scimitar and the one with two Kukris.
A scimitar is a medium weapon. Did you use it in off hand or primary?
The full penalty for using a heavy shield applies to it if used primary, -4 to hit.
The full penalty for being a medium weapon applies to it if used off hand, -4 to hit.
I suggest a short sword. Technically speaking, a Shield Fighter should just use defender on his off hand weapon, attack with his shield, and get his AC into the stratosphere.
==Aelryinth
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Two shields aren't needed. A Shielded Fighter can use his shield as a main weapon and also use it for shield bashs.I didn't use two shields. See assumptions. To be precise, the archetype I used is Two-Weapon Fighter. I used the term "Shield Fighter" in my post to differentiate between the one with a shield and scimitar and the one with two Kukris.A scimitar is a medium weapon. Did you use it in off hand or primary?
The full penalty for using a heavy shield applies to it if used primary, -4 to hit.
The full penalty for being a medium weapon applies to it if used off hand, -4 to hit.I suggest a short sword. Technically speaking, a Shield Fighter should just use defender on his off hand weapon, attack with his shield, and get his AC into the stratosphere.
==Aelryinth
Did you read the equipment section of his post? He's using a light shield and a scimitar == standard TWF with a light weapon in the off hand (the shield).
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i'm curious as to why the scimitar was used instead of a kukri? kukri could be finessed and thus Dex could be bumped up, and instead of power attack one could then use Piranha Strike from the Sargava companion.
Piranha Strike [Combat]
You make a combination of quick strikes, sacrificing
accuracy for multiple, minor wounds that prove
exceptionally deadly.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When wielding a light weapon, you can choose
to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat
maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage
rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are
making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary
natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4,
and for every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by
–1 and the bonus on damage rolls increases by +2. You must
choose to use this feat before the attack roll, and its effects
last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply
to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
This feat cannot be used in conjunction with the Power
Attack feat.
i'm curious as to why the scimitar was used instead of a kukri? kukri could be finessed and thus Dex could be bumped up, and instead of power attack one could then use Piranha Strike from the Sargava companion.
Piranha Strike [Combat]
You make a combination of quick strikes, sacrificing
accuracy for multiple, minor wounds that prove
exceptionally deadly.
Prerequisites: Weapon Finesse, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: When wielding a light weapon, you can choose
to take a –1 penalty on all melee attack rolls and combat
maneuver checks to gain a +2 bonus on all melee damage
rolls. This bonus to damage is halved (–50%) if you are
making an attack with an off-hand weapon or secondary
natural weapon. When your base attack bonus reaches +4,
and for every 4 points thereafter, the penalty increases by
–1 and the bonus on damage rolls increases by +2. You must
choose to use this feat before the attack roll, and its effects
last until your next turn. The bonus damage does not apply
to touch attacks or effects that do not deal hit point damage.
This feat cannot be used in conjunction with the Power
Attack feat.
I think he did it because he can't spare a feat on Weapon Finesse, and if he did, his damage would go down. My question is does that stack with power attack? Each feat gives untyped bonuses and ti doesn't say it doesn't stack with PA so he could give it to the Kukri fighter to further whip ass
Why 20pt buy? Who even uses that?
It seems to be the most common point buy for those that don't like rolling. Many groups don't like 15 because it does not do enough, and they avoid 25 because it is just a little to much to them.
Why 20pt buy? Who even uses that?
Probably for 2 reasons:
1) Its on the chart for High Fantasy, so it is an acceptable number to use.2) But the most likely reason would be, 20 point buy is what the organized Pathfinder Society rules use.
So I would say quite a few people use a 20 point buy. Besides, the amount doesn't matter, as long as two characters use the same amount of points.
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One thing I'd like to point out: The level 15 Fighter with two kukris would likely be wielding two scimitars by then thanks to the two-weapon fighter ability. Same goes for wielding a heavy shield for the shield fighter. I don't know if you wanna factor that in, but it could change the numbers, even if only a little.
Did you read the equipment section of his post? He's using a light shield and a scimitar == standard TWF with a light weapon in the off hand (the shield).
I tried to. All I could find is dual wielding heavy shields, and then you made mention of scimitar, so I was kinda lost.
I think you should reverse it and put the heavy shield back in, in the primary hand, and a shortsword in the off hand. The 2-12 dmg with the heavy shield is hard to pass up.
Also, isn't kukri an exotic weapon? People seem to think it is martial.
==Aelryinth
No, kukris are martial weapons in Pathfinder, just as they were in 3.5 D&D.
Piranha Strike does not stack with Power Attack. It's the "high dex build" equivalent of Power Attack...
Why wouldn't it stack? IT does the same thing just with different requirements and it's an untyped bonus
Piranha Strike does not stack with Power Attack. It's the "high dex build" equivalent of Power Attack...Why wouldn't it stack? IT does the same thing just with different requirements and it's an untyped bonus
Would your want to take full attack that applies power attack twice?
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One thing I'd like to point out: The level 15 Fighter with two kukris would likely be wielding two scimitars by then thanks to the two-weapon fighter ability. Same goes for wielding a heavy shield for the shield fighter. I don't know if you wanna factor that in, but it could change the numbers, even if only a little.
The alternative Improved Balance class feature, which gives you +1 to attack on each weapon when you attack with both weapons, would be statistically better (for damage overall purposes) than trading the kukris for scimitars.
It doesn't stack with power attack because it says so in the feat description.
This feat cannot be used in conjunction with the Power Attack feat.
I would say that's pretty explicit.
;)
One thing I'd like to point out: The level 15 Fighter with two kukris would likely be wielding two scimitars by then thanks to the two-weapon fighter ability. Same goes for wielding a heavy shield for the shield fighter. I don't know if you wanna factor that in, but it could change the numbers, even if only a little.The alternative Improved Balance class feature, which gives you +1 to attack on each weapon when you attack with both weapons, would be statistically better (for damage overall purposes) than trading the kukris for scimitars.
It doesn't stack with power attack because it says so in the feat description.
This feat cannot be used in conjunction with the Power Attack feat.I would say that's pretty explicit.
;)
oops he he missed that part
One thing I'd like to point out: The level 15 Fighter with two kukris would likely be wielding two scimitars by then thanks to the two-weapon fighter ability. Same goes for wielding a heavy shield for the shield fighter. I don't know if you wanna factor that in, but it could change the numbers, even if only a little.The alternative Improved Balance class feature, which gives you +1 to attack on each weapon when you attack with both weapons, would be statistically better (for damage overall purposes) than trading the kukris for scimitars.
The kukris are still better. They also get that bonus to attack and damage and they were already ahead. I also did the math using the DPR thread.
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So basically I had two errors in my spreadsheet. Thanks to some messy references, my formula was overcalculating the chance of a critical hit with Bashing Finish. A bigger error was that I was applying full damage from power attack to an off hand weapon (instead of half). That one was probably an artifact of the fact that I started the spreadsheet for a monk and overlooked that when I made major changes to calculate for a fighter.
Anyway - At level 15:
Shield Fighter = 227 DPR
Kukri = 187 DPR
And now that my spreadsheet is more robust, I can move things around much more easily and found out that I was actually better served by moving the Shield Fighter Weapon Specialization Feats from the shield to the Scimitar. So the new feat chain is:
2) Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
3) Power Attack
4) Weapon Specialization (Scimitar)
5) Double Slice
6) Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
7) Shield Slam
8) Improved Critical (Scimitar)
9) Greater Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
10) Critical Focus
11) Shield Master
12) Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
13) Two-Weapon Rend
14) Bashing Finish
15) Greater Weapon Specialization (Scimitar)
And I can try things like level 16:
At level 16:
Shield Fighter = 256 DPR
Kukri = 245 DPR
As I expected the damage gets a LOT closer at level 16.
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I'm going to move some questions from The other thread over here (where I think they belong).
Why did i thought that if you have double slice you add the normal amount of damage from power attack?
Double Slice lets you add your normal STRENGTH Damage, the power attack damage is still halved for the off-hand.
Belafon wrote:
Several reasons for Scimitar instead of Kukri for the shield fighter
1) More Damage (not much, I know, but 1 per attack matters)
1.5) TWF penalties rely on the off-hand weapon, so since I have a light shield, I can use any weapon in my main hand at -2 (before archetype bonuses).
2) Adding Dex doesn't help armor class if I use the TWF archetype, they lose armor training.
2.5) Dex is already at 17 starting, at most I could boost it by 3.
3) Most importantly - Count the Feats! You could swap Power Attack for Pirahna Strike, but I would have to put Weapon Finesse in there somewhere, and I don't want to drop any of the other feats taken.hmmm... i'd still be curious to see the kukri/piranha strike version... yes you need weapon finesse, but weapon finesse applies to both kukri and the light shield, and the kukri is a crit on 15-20 if you keen it, which makes Bashing Finish awesome-usable 25% of the time... in terms of max dex from armor... just pick another armor. Dex AC trumps Armor AC if you ask me.
PS: was power attack a prereq of other feats in your build? if not, don't see the point of scimitar over kukri... sorry
Take a good look at the feat chain I posted for the sword and board fighter. The scimitar crits just as often as a kukri would, they have the same threat range. Two-weapon fighting penalties are determined using the class of the off-hand weapon. In other words, since my shield is light, I can use a light OR one-handed weapon in my main hand at the same penalty. Scimitar is 1D6 vs 1D4 for kukri. Scimitar by ~1 damage per attack.
Weapon Finesse is a feat. I would have to remove some other feat form the sword and shield fighter to take it. Pick one and I'll give you the new number using a kukri and a strength bonus that's 3 lower (so I can bump up the Dex as you suggest). And before you answer, remember that Weapon Finesse lets you use your Dex bonus on ATTACK ROLLS. DAMAGE ROLLS are still determined by Strength bonus. That's the big reason why Weapon Finesse doesn't work in a max DPR build.
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Since he has the Feats free to do it effectively, why is the Kukri Fighter not using a Scimiatr/Kukri instead of two Kukris?
That'd use his free feats and strikes me as a better comparison.
First: The Numbers
If he tried to spend all 5 of his unused feats on Weap Focus, Grtr Weap Focus, Weap Spec, Grtr Weap Spec, and Crit Focus (Scimitar), the level 15 Two-Weapon fighter with a scimitar and kukri would do 184 DPR (vs 187 with two Kukris).Second: The Reason (at level 15)
Let's take another look at the feats from level 8 to level 15
8) Improved Critical (Kukri)
9) Greater Weapon Focus (Kukri)
10) Critical Focus
11) Two-Weapon Rend
12) Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
13) Greater Weapon Specialization (Kukri)
14)
15)
There's only two slots available. But Improved Critical (Scimitar), Greater Weapon Focus (Scimitar), and Greater Weapon Specialization (Scimitar) all require AT LEAST level 8. You have to give up something. In most cases Weapon Focus>Weapon Specialization, so that's what I chose to give up.
Third: The Reason I wouldn't do this (long term)
As I said, you would have to give up ALL unused feats to do this. Although I could probably put some feats (like Bleeding Critical, which averages 7 DPR per successful application) into my spreadsheet with some more work, there are many others which are useful but impossible to quantify in a "blank page" environment (like Combat Reflexes, which can result in massive increased DPR but only in certain circumstances - and can often serve as a deterrent as well). 5 feats are definitely worth more than 3 DPR. (3 DPR is the increase over two kukris at level 16 if you did take all the required feats.)
So basically I had two errors in my spreadsheet. Thanks to some messy references, my formula was overcalculating the chance of a critical hit with Bashing Finish. A bigger error was that I was applying full damage from power attack to an off hand weapon (instead of half). That one was probably an artifact of the fact that I started the spreadsheet for a monk and overlooked that when I made major changes to calculate for a fighter.
Anyway - At level 15:
Shield Fighter = 227 DPR
Kukri = 187 DPRAnd now that my spreadsheet is more robust, I can move things around much more easily and found out that I was actually better served by moving the Shield Fighter Weapon Specialization Feats from the shield to the Scimitar. So the new feat chain is:
** spoiler omitted **And I can try things like level 16:
** spoiler omitted **
The DPR thread already had a spreadsheet. If yours is better would you mind sharing? Here is the other spread sheet
I generally use it to check my higher level characters to make sure my to hit and damage bonuses are correct.
What's the DPR with Heavy Shield of Bashing as Primary Weapon, and kukri as the light off hand weapon?
==Aelryinth
How about 2 falcatas?
can't do that; shield bash is always the off-hand as a ruleWhat's the DPR with Heavy Shield of Bashing as Primary Weapon, and kukri as the light off hand weapon?
==Aelryinth
Hurray for the spreading of misinformation!
Game developers have clarified that this is NOT the case.
can't do that; shield bash is always the off-hand as a ruleWhat's the DPR with Heavy Shield of Bashing as Primary Weapon, and kukri as the light off hand weapon?
==Aelryinth
Hurray for the spreading of misinformation!
Game developers have clarified that this is NOT the case.
Really? I never saw that get resolved by any developer.
edit:You should have known to present proof. :)
edit2: I found the post, and you are correct. If you attack with only the shield it can be a primary weapon, but when TWF'ing nobody(no devs) has made a statement saying you can shield bash as the primary weapon which is the point being made here. In other words the kukri arguement was saying that if you shield bash and use the kukri then the kukri is the primary weapon.
How about 2 falcatas?
I was wondering the same thing.
can't do that; shield bash is always the off-hand as a ruleWhat's the DPR with Heavy Shield of Bashing as Primary Weapon, and kukri as the light off hand weapon?
==Aelryinth
Hurray for the spreading of misinformation!
Game developers have clarified that this is NOT the case.
Really? I never saw that get resolved by any developer.
edit:You should have known to present proof. :)
edit2: I found the post, and you are correct. If you attack with only the shield it can be a primary weapon, but when TWF'ing nobody(no devs) has made a statement saying you can shield bash as the primary weapon which is the point being made here. In other words the kukri arguement was saying that if you shield bash and use the kukri then the kukri is the primary weapon.
RAW you are correct (though I don't know if that's RAI). In any case, I was merely refuting the statement that the shield bash is ALWAYS an off-hand attack--not trying to prove or disprove anything about the theorycraft going on in here.
RAW you are correct (though I don't know if that's RAI). In any case, I was merely refuting the statement that the shield bash is ALWAYS an off-hand attack--not trying to prove or disprove anything about the theorycraft going on in here.
You have to read the entire thing in context
Aelryinth wrote:
What's the DPR with Heavy Shield of Bashing as Primary Weapon, and kukri as the light off hand weapon?
==Aelryinth
can't do that; shield bash is always the off-hand as a rule
One person says make the kukri into the off-hand weapon, and the other person says you can't do that since the shield has to be the off-hand weapon. They were referring to that specific situation, at least that is how I read it anyway.
Then I read it as you saying you can switch the kukri thinking you were also replying to the specific situation when you were replying to a general rule instead.
If it's your only weapon, you can bash. That means you can bash as a primary attack.
And you can do it one handed. It's also a heavy melee weapon, which by definition means you could use two hands on it.
And if you can do it one handed as a primary attack, that means you can have something in your off hand as a secondary attack.
Is there anywhere that chain of logic doesn't work? No?
========
I repeat my question. A heavy shield of bashing as primary, kukri secondary. How's the DPR?
==Aelryinth
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RAW you are correct (though I don't know if that's RAI). In any case, I was merely refuting the statement that the shield bash is ALWAYS an off-hand attack--not trying to prove or disprove anything about the theorycraft going on in here.
I'm not trying to be a stick in the mud, and I don't claim to have complete knowledge of what statements the devs make on these boards, but as the Pathfinder products multiply (we get new crunch at least once every month in the form of the Pathfinder Companion series), I find it wise to stick to RAW and to the official Erratas. Sword and board characters are my favorite characters to play in the game, but I wouldn't dare lower myself to such cheeseweaseling as making shield bashes a main weapon. The pen may be mightier than the sword, but the shield? ridiculous. Now let's make bets to see how soon we see another discussion on dual shields... (sigh)
As it stands, Shield Slam is an enormous advancement and a huge bang for a fighter's buck in terms of feats selection. Do we really need shield AC enhancement bonus added to attack/damage when the RAW says 1 or 2 (light/heavy) and do we really need to make shields main hand attacks when the RAW already says you no longer suffer TWF penalties with shield attacks? Stick to light shields and take the -2 for the main weapon: if you improve shield bash someone into prone position the main hand is now at an effective +2 anyhow, and you get an AoO as the guy stands up....
Why not go with dual shielding right away? :)
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If it's your only weapon, you can bash. That means you can bash as a primary attack.
And you can do it one handed. It's also a heavy melee weapon, which by definition means you could use two hands on it.
And if you can do it one handed as a primary attack, that means you can have something in your off hand as a secondary attack.
Is there anywhere that chain of logic doesn't work? No?
========
I repeat my question. A heavy shield of bashing as primary, kukri secondary. How's the DPR?==Aelryinth
Here's where the chain of logic doesn't work:
Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a heavy shield, using it as an off-hand weapon.
A shield bash is an off-hand weapon. This particular question pops up about once every month-month and a half and people are equally passionate about both arguments. Please take this up on one of those threads, let's leave the initial assumptions untouched here.
But just for fun, if your GM decides to allow it, the DPR at level 15 is almost identical. You pick up some damage from getting full power attack bonus on the Bashing Finish, but lose some because you no longer get full power attack bonus on the far-more-likely-to-crit Kukri. At level 16 it drops even more vs shield in off-hand since your more likely critter (kukri again) isn't getting the extra attack from +16 BAB, which in turn lowers the chance for Bashing Finishes.
How about 2 falcatas?
194 DPR (vs. 187 for two Kukris). Hmm, might be worth the feat...
Why not go with dual shielding right away? :)
I did a comparison of two shield vs two kukris at level 11 a while back (see link in the first post of this thread). But for this particular comparison, the assumption is that due to the definition of a shield bash as an off-hand attack, you can't dual wield shields. Please take that discussion up in one of the many threads that debates that point.
It's been stated multiple times that you can bash if you are not wielding another weapon.
There's also never,ever been a rule that says that a weapon is restricted only to be used in off-hand and not the primary hand, because that makes no sense whatsoever. IF it's your only weapon, it's still off-hand?
No. If you want to make the shield your primary weapon, there's nothing in the rules saying you cannot.
===Aelryinth
"Cheese" is the new "broken" in that it is getting thrown around way too much with nothing to support it. e.g., knee jerk reactions.
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"Cheese" is the new "broken" in that it is getting thrown around way too much with nothing to support it. e.g., knee jerk reactions.
Ravingdork, you bear your name well. You say knee jerk, and I say proper reading skills. See p.152-153 PRPG before making any further useless comments.
On the not so off-chance that you will not even care cracking that book for the first time, here it is, quoted for your own ease of reference, most esteemed and noble raving dork:
Shield Bash Attacks: You can bash an opponent with a
light shield, using it as an off-hand weapon. See “shield,
light” on Table 6–4 for the damage dealt by a shield bash.
Used this way, a light shield is a martial bludgeoning
weapon. For the purpose of penalties on attack rolls, treat
a light shield as a light weapon. If you use your shield
as a weapon, you lose its AC bonus until your next turn.
An enhancement bonus on a shield does not improve the
effectiveness of a shield bash made with it, but the shield
can be made into a magic weapon in its own right.
"Cheese" is the new "broken" in that it is getting thrown around way too much with nothing to support it. e.g., knee jerk reactions.Ravingdork, you bear your name well. You say knee jerk, and I say proper reading skills. See p.152-153 PRPG before making any further useless comments.
On the not so off-chance that you will not even care cracking that book for the first time, here it is, quoted for your own ease of reference, most esteemed and noble raving dork...
Wow. Could you be any more rude?
I've read the book and spoken with the designers on the matter and know precisely what the RAW and RAI are in regards to this matter. Perhaps it is you who should get some perspective.
Tracking right or left handedness isn't something we bother with in Pathfinder. The ONLY time an attack is considered an off-hand attack is when you make an attack with a second weapon in the same round you make an attack with a first weapon.
If you have a longsword in your right hand and a shield in your left, and you only attack with a shield bash in a round, that shield bash is NOT considered an off-hand or secondary attack for that round.
It's a relatively easy bit of house rules to institute handedness, though, if you're looking for that level of additional detail... but that's not a level of detail we want to assume for the core game.
A shield bash isn't always an off-hand attack. You're just reading too much into the rules.
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How about 2 falcatas?194 DPR (vs. 187 for two Kukris). Hmm, might be worth the feat...
Would you be so kind as checking the DPR for falcata and buckler combo using the Inner Sea's rondelero archetype? (see below) Your insight with this would be greatly appreciated. Regards, PDK.
=================================================================Buckler Bash (Ex): At 2nd level, a rondelero can perform a
shield bash with a buckler (use the same damage and critical
modifier as for a light shield). This ability replaces bravery.
Buckler Catch (Ex): At 3rd level, a rondelero can catch his
opponent’s weapon between his buckler and his forearm,
effectively wedging the hafts of polearms and hammers
or the flats of blades. This functions as a disarm combat
maneuver, and the rondelero gains a +4 bonus on the roll.
If the rondelero’s attack fails by 10 or more, he suffers a
–2 penalty to his AC until the start of his next turn. This
ability replaces armor training 1.
Strong Swing (Ex): At 5th level, a rondelero gains a +1
bonus on attack and damage rolls when wielding a falcata
and buckler that applies to attacks made by either hand.
These bonuses increase by +1 for every four levels beyond
5th. With a full-attack action, a rondelero may alternate
between using his falcata or his buckler for each attack.
This does not grant additional attacks or incur penalties
as two-weapon fighting does. This ability replaces weapon
training 1.
Armor Training (Ex): At 7th level, a rondelero gains
armor training 1, and can move at his normal speed in
medium armor. At 15th level, the rondelero gains armor
training 2, and can move at his normal speed in heavy
armor. This ability replaces armor training 2.
Chopping Blow (Ex): At 11th level, as a standard action,
a rondelero can make a single melee attack with a falcata.
If the attack hits, he may make a sunder combat maneuver
against the target of his attack as a free action that does
not provoke an attack of opportunity. This ability replaces
armor training 3.
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Wow. Could you be any more rude?
I've read the book and spoken with the designers on the matter and know precisely what the RAW and RAI are in regards to this matter. Perhaps it is you who should get some perspective.
I could be more rude, but it would be wasted on you. Keep talking to designers though, if that will give you the confidence you need to come on these boards and make useless comments targeted at those that are just fine with clear language.
I could be more rude, but it would be wasted on you. Keep talking to designers though, if that will give you the confidence you need to come on these boards and make useless comments targeted at those that are just fine with clear language.Wow. Could you be any more rude?
I've read the book and spoken with the designers on the matter and know precisely what the RAW and RAI are in regards to this matter. Perhaps it is you who should get some perspective.
I've edited my post above. Please check for the additions.
How about 2 falcatas?194 DPR (vs. 187 for two Kukris). Hmm, might be worth the feat...Would you be so kind as checking the DPR for falcata and buckler combo using the Inner Sea's rondelero archetype? (see below) Your insight with this would be greatly appreciated. Regards, PDK.
=================================================================Buckler Bash (Ex): At 2nd level, a rondelero can perform a
shield bash with a buckler (use the same damage and critical
modifier as for a light shield). This ability replaces bravery.
Buckler Catch (Ex): At 3rd level, a rondelero can catch his
opponent’s weapon between his buckler and his forearm,
effectively wedging the hafts of polearms and hammers
or the flats of blades. This functions as a disarm combat
maneuver, and the rondelero gains a +4 bonus on the roll.
If the rondelero’s attack fails by 10 or more, he suffers a
–2 penalty to his AC until the start of his next turn. This
ability replaces armor training 1.
Strong Swing (Ex): At 5th level, a rondelero gains a +1
bonus on attack and damage rolls when wielding a falcata
and buckler that applies to attacks made by either hand.
These bonuses increase by +1 for every four levels beyond
5th. With a full-attack action, a rondelero may alternate
between using his falcata or his buckler for each attack.
This does not grant additional attacks or incur penalties
as two-weapon fighting does. This ability replaces weapon
training 1.
Armor Training (Ex): At 7th level, a rondelero gains
armor training 1, and can move at his normal speed in
medium armor. At 15th level, the rondelero gains armor
training 2, and can move at his normal speed in heavy
armor. This ability replaces armor training 2.
Chopping Blow (Ex): At 11th level, as a standard action,
a rondelero can make a single melee attack with a falcata.
If the attack hits, he may make a sunder combat maneuver
against the target of his attack as a free action that does
not provoke an attack...
Seems like a decent and thematic archetype. The TWW may still be better, (standard action TWF vs twohanding the Falcata) but the TWW can AOO TWF which REALLY increases your hits if you focus on it
Actually my suggestion about dual shields was just a cocky reply to PDK's fears. Probably also as a reminder to what might happen when dropping the offhand requirement for shield bashes. TWF with two shields without any to-hit penalties and cheap enchantments due to shield mastery while saving on feats due to synergies - nah, not really.
And while I value the developers' frequent input on these boards highly, especially James Jabob's, they have been known to take back some statements after giving them a second thought. The RAW might be unspecific about main- and offhand when dual wielding longsword and dagger, but it's very specific about shield bashing. Going shield is a quite powerful way to go (as soon as shield mastery kicks in) as it is.
And while it's true that some tactics in the Roman army valued the shield over the shortsword, the shield never was the main method of dealing damage.
No, my wife won't allow it. :)