Do Alchemists need Spellcraft?


Rules Questions


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Reading over the Alchemist, I'm not sure if I need Spellcraft or not. Here's parts that I would like clarified if I'm incorrect.

1) The final sentence that tells how Alchemists add to their formula book says that Alchemists do not need to decipher arcane writings before copying them. This means that a Spellcraft check is not needed to expand the formula book, right?

2) Magic items normally require a Spellcraft check to create but other skills may be substituted as appropriate. It seems to me that it would be reasonable to allow an Alchemist to use Craft (alchemy) when using Brew Potion, so Spellcraft isn't necessary here either.

3) Alchemists cannot make use of spell completion items even if they have an equivalent formula in their book. This means that Spellcraft is useless here too (although Use Magic Device could be helpful).

4) Alchemists can use Craft (alchemy) to identify potions, so as long as I'm not trying to identify other magic items, Spellcraft isn't need here either.

So, what would an Alchemist need Spellcraft for?


For point #1, deciphering the magical writing is only the first step. A Spellcraft check (DC15+spell level) is still required to make the actual copy. So that's one use of the skill.

The others you mention are valid points. And of course you can still use Spellcraft to ID a spell as its being cast. You're not going to be counterspelling of course, but it might be valueable information for your party to know.


ZappoHisbane wrote:

For point #1, deciphering the magical writing is only the first step. A Spellcraft check (DC15+spell level) is still required to make the actual copy. So that's one use of the skill.

The others you mention are valid points. And of course you can still use Spellcraft to ID a spell as its being cast. You're not going to be counterspelling of course, but it might be valueable information for your party to know.

That's simply an interpretation. The rules don't specify it. It is logical to assume, but until it's clarified it's really a DM by DM basis. My Alchemist doesn't have a single rank in Spellcraft.


Wait, you can't counter spell?

So an enemy caster throws fireball and my alchemist can't huck his vial of dispel magic at the fire ball bead and counter it? NO fair!


Preston Poulter wrote:
ZappoHisbane wrote:

For point #1, deciphering the magical writing is only the first step. A Spellcraft check (DC15+spell level) is still required to make the actual copy. So that's one use of the skill.

The others you mention are valid points. And of course you can still use Spellcraft to ID a spell as its being cast. You're not going to be counterspelling of course, but it might be valueable information for your party to know.

That's simply an interpretation. The rules don't specify it. It is logical to assume, but until it's clarified it's really a DM by DM basis. My Alchemist doesn't have a single rank in Spellcraft.

If you go by ZappoHisbane's interpretation, then Spellcraft is vital since you still need to make Spellcraft tests to copy every formula. The only thing that the final line of the Alchemist's text does is make up for not having Read Magic (which also removes the need to test to decipher). I guess it wont hurt to have Spellcraft, and the Alchemist will often have plenty of skill ranks each level.


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I don't think there's much open to interpretation.

PRD, Magic, Arcane Magical Writings wrote:

Spells Copied from Another's Spellbook or a Scroll:

A wizard can also add a spell to his book whenever he encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard's spellbook. No matter what the spell's source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings). Next, he must spend 1 hour studying the spell. At the end of the hour, he must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell's level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from his specialty school. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into his spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.

Italics mine. These two words indicate two separate steps. Deciphering is covered here, earlier in the section:

PRD, Magic, Arcane Magical Writings wrote:
To decipher an arcane magical writing (such as a single spell in another's spellbook or on a scroll), a character must make a Spellcraft check (DC 20 + the spell's level). If the skill check fails, the character cannot attempt to read that particular spell again until the next day. A read magic spell automatically deciphers magical writing without a skill check. If the person who created the magical writing is on hand to help the reader, success is also automatic.

Note that the DC's for these two checks are different. I don't think there's any doubt that there are two steps. So what does the Alchemist get to skip?

PRD, Alchemist, Alchemy wrote:
An alchemist may know any number of formulae...An alchemist can also add formulae to his book just like a wizard adds spells to his spellbook, using the same costs, pages, and time requirements. An alchemist can study a wizard's spellbook to learn any formula that is equivalent to a spell the spellbook contains. A wizard, however, cannot learn spells from a formula book. An alchemist does not need to decipher arcane writings before copying them.

Since deciphering arcane writings is a specific step noted, we can thus safely say the Alchemist doesn't need to do that step. Everything else however applies the same to the Alchemist as it would the Wizard. So if you want to copy formulae from spellbooks, you're going to need a Spellcraft check good enough to hit DC15+spell level.


That's your interpretation. It says costs, pages, and time requirements with no need to decipher the writing. Quite frankly, if they're assuming I'm going to read this as requiring a spellcraft check, that's a pretty big assumption.

Is a Spellcraft check required to copy from another Formulae book?

I consider it really unclear, your interpretation seems logical, but it doesn't seem clear cut to me.


Preston Poulter wrote:

That's your interpretation. It says costs, pages, and time requirements with no need to decipher the writing. Quite frankly, if they're assuming I'm going to read this as requiring a spellcraft check, that's a pretty big assumption.

Is a Spellcraft check required to copy from another Formulae book?

I consider it really unclear, your interpretation seems logical, but it doesn't seem clear cut to me.

I don't understand how it isn't clear. They use almost the same method as a Wizard, with the exception of the decipher step. Why bother reprinting all those rules, when they've spelled it out already. Do it like the Wizard, except you don't need the hard part. This is probably becase Read Magic isn't available to the Alchemist, which most Wizards will just prepare as a cantrip, so they can skip that step themselves.

The other prepared Arcane caster, the Witch, also has to make a Spellcraft check to teach their familiar a new spell. Its spelled out more clearly since the medium is completely different, but the mechanics are the same. Spellcraft check DC15+spell level to either have one familiar teach a spell to another, or to prepare a special drink made from a scroll.

So with that in mind, why would Alchemists be any different? It doesn't say that they don't need to make the Spellcraft check. So, they have to make that check, just like everyone else.


Why would they be any different? Cause they aren't Arcane casters./I see no reason why they'd use Spellcraft for anything quite frankly. That's a huge
omission they left out and would have only required adding three words (including Spellcraft check) to make it more clear.

I done discussing this with you. It's not clear. End of story.


Bump

I'd really like an answer to this. I find it pretty ridiculous that the class has no detect magic, does not "cast spells," and can already explicitly use alchemy to ID potions, yet by RAW still would need to use spellcraft to add formula to his book.

Is the intent that the alchemist not use any skill at all, use alchemy instead, or use spellcraft (and if that is the intent, WHY?!) ?


They get detect magic in the form of identify.


That's not the same thing. Detect Magic can be spammed repeatedly, and Identify is basically "for those that don't feel like putting more than a point in spellcraft."


I would allow an alchemist to use alchemy rather than spellcraft since they are transcribing the spell from the wizard's spellbook as a formula rather than a spell.

Mind you, I would prefer that alchemists are unable to transfer spells into a formula in an effort to further separate the two disciplines but that's just me.

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