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Hi,
I was creating a half orc barbarian/ bard/ dragon disciple and was wondering how the Natural Armor would work out.
The character is a 4th level Dragon disciple. This gives a natural armour of:
+1 Natural armour bonus from Draconic bloodline level 3
+2 Natural Armour increase from levels 1 and 4 of Dragon Disciple.
What if I take the Iron Hide feat. This gives a +1 Natural Armour Bonus. Would this then qualify the character for Improved Natural Armour Monster Feat?
If I take the Savage Barbarian Archetype do the bonuses from Natural Toughness at 7th level stack to this?
All these bonuses seem untyped suggesting they would stack (unlike the spell Barkskin that gives an Enhancement Bonus to Natural Armour), however the wording of the Dragon Disciple Natural Armour Increase specifically state that the natural armour stacks, suggesting other types of natural armour may not...
Hi,
I was creating a half orc barbarian/ bard/ dragon disciple and was wondering how the Natural Armor would work out.
The character is a 4th level Dragon disciple. This gives a natural armour of:
+1 Natural armour bonus from Draconic bloodline level 3
+2 Natural Armour increase from levels 1 and 4 of Dragon Disciple.What if I take the Iron Hide feat. This gives a +1 Natural Armour Bonus. Would this then qualify the character for Improved Natural Armour Monster Feat?
If I take the Savage Barbarian Archetype do the bonuses from Natural Toughness at 7th level stack to this?
All these bonuses seem untyped suggesting they would stack (unlike the spell Barkskin that gives an Enhancement Bonus to Natural Armour), however the wording of the Dragon Disciple Natural Armour Increase specifically state that the natural armour stacks, suggesting other types of natural armour may not...
They all stack.
I would say ask your dm for one very specific reason.
The dragon disciple, and improved natural armor feat will stack with whatever, they all say increase your natural armor bonus. On the other hand, the iron hide feat, and the sorceror bloodline power states you gain a +1 natural armor bonus. However, they are all untyped, so as far as I am concerend they all stack, but still, check with your dm.
As wraith stated, they are all untyped bonuses, so they all stack.
However, I don't believe these would qualify you to take the Improved Natural Armor feat. They all provide natural armor bonuses, but not natural armor itself. I believe you would need racial natural armor in order to meet its prerequisites.
I thought I saw an actual natural armor, but if I did not then the feat can not be taken and Heaven's Agent is correct, but the others should still stack.
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The Ironhide feat, the Draconic Bloodline, and Natural Toughness provide the same benefit: "you gain [...] a +1 natural armor bonus."
Ergo, they do not stack; if you're a Draconic bloodline sorceror, don't bother taking the Ironhide feat (unless you want it at level 1 and your DM will let you retrain out of it later). Similarly, be wary of taking the Savage Barbarian archetype, unless your Barbarian level will be much higher than your Sorcerer level. (+4 Nat Armor
= Sorc 15 or Savage Barb 18)
Actually, that's wrong. These bonuses are untyped; untyped bonuses always stack.
That said, I believe this does bring up a FAQ candidate: does a dragon disciple's natural armor increase have any effect on a creature without natural armor? The way it's written, it seems almost as if it is an increase to natural armor itself, rather than a bonus, but has no effect should a creature lack natural armor to begin with. And as we all know, none of the basic player races possess actual natural armor.
Additionally, the ability needs to be clarified as to whether it provides an increase to natural armor, or an untyped bonus. As I noted, the way it's written seems to indicate an actual increase, but then bonus is tossed in at the end of the description. Which of the two the ability grants is unclear.
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Thanks for the input guys :)
The only one I'm a little uncertain on now is the Improved Natural Armour.
Monster Feats
Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters, although some player characters might qualify for them (particularly Craft Construct).
Improved Natural Armor
This creature's hide is tougher than most.
Prerequisites: Natural armor, Con 13.
Benefit: The creature's natural armor bonus increases by +1.
Special: A creature can gain this feat multiple times. Each time the creature takes the feat, its natural armor bonus increases by another point.
Ironhide
Your skin is thicker and more resilient than that of most of your people.
Prerequisites: Con 13; dwarf, half-orc, or orc.
Benefit: You gain a +1 natural armor bonus due to your unusually tough hide.
Is the +1 Natural Armour Bonus from Iron Hide Natural Armour to meet the prerepuisite for the feat...
And as we all know, none of the basic player races possess actual natural armor.
All creatures have natural armor of +0. See the barkskin spell description, for instance.
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I agree the wording of the Dragon Disciples ability is confusing:
Natural Armor Increase (Ex): As his skin thickens, a dragon disciple takes on more and more of his progenitor's physical aspect. At 1st, 4th, and 7th level, a dragon disciple gains an increase to the character's existing natural armor (if any), as indicated on Table: Dragon Disciple. These armor bonuses stack.
Its the "(if any)". With a sorcerer path to the prestige class you would already have a natural armour bonus at level 3. With the bard pathway you would have no natural armour until level 3 of the Prestige class to add to...
All creatures have natural armor of +0. See the barkskin spell description, for instance.
No, they don't. A creature without natural armor is treated as having natural armor of +0
Otherwise the spell wouldn't have to differentiate between creature possessing natural armor and those that don't; all creature would have natural armor, and those lines of the spell description would serve no purpose.
They aren't untyped bonuses, the type is natural armor.
They're untyped bonuses to natural armor. An example of a typed bonus would be that generated by barkskin. The spell creates an enhancement bonus to natural armor.
Its the "(if any)". With a sorcerer path to the prestige class you would already have a natural armour bonus at level 3. With the bard pathway you would have no natural armour until level 3 of the Prestige class to add to.
Yes, but a natural armor bonus is not natural armor. So due to the "if any" clause, not even your examples would benefit from the ability.
They don't actually have natural armor, only natural armor bonuses.
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Bark skin and an amulet of natural armour give an enhancement bonus to natural armour. Barkskin specifically states this adds to the creatures existing natural armour.
The amulet of Natural Armour also gives an enhancement bonus to natural armour.
Traditionally I had thought that a person with natural armour would not benefit from an amulet of natural armour. However if Natural Armour is not a bonus type in itself, then you could have an enhancement bonus to Natural armour as Barkskin and the amulet seem to suggest.
If Natural Armour is a bonus type in itself then Patryn and Braden would be correct in their assumptions that many of the bonuses would not stack...
... However if Natural Armour is not a bonus type in itself, then you could have an enhancement bonus to Natural armour as Barkskin and the amulet seem to suggest.
It is and it isn't; natural armor itself can be considered a bonus type when applied to AC; if a creature somehow has two sources of natural armor, they don't stack. That said, do not confuse natural armor with natural armor bonuses.
One's natural armor can be enhanced separately from AC. Such bonuses to natural armor can be untyped, in which case they stack, or they can be typed, in which case they don't. In either case, a creature's total modified natural armor score is what's applied to AC.
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The description of Natural Armour is listed below:
Natural Armor: If your race has a tough hide, scales, or thick skin you receive a bonus to your AC.
I'd think it unusual if I had no Natural Armour, but a +4 bonus to it, that I could benefit from that bonus if I actually had no natural armour. I would imagine that a bonus to natural armour would either grant natural armour or not be applicable.
This is however why I started the thread. I am far from clear on these things :)
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They aren't untyped bonuses, the type is natural armor.They're untyped bonuses to natural armor.
Actually, they're not bonuses to natural armor at all; they are natural armor, which provides a typed bonus (specifically, a natural armor bonus) to AC. They don't stack.
I can't wear a suit of plate mail and breastplate armor and have them stack. Both are armor, which provides a typed bonus (specifically an armor bonus) to AC. They don't stack.An armor enchantment provides an enhancement bonus to the armor, which increases the typed bonus that the armor provides; it's still one source of armor bonus and therefore "stacks" (it's not really stacking because it's part of the same single bonus value). The enhancement bonus is a typed bonus to the armor, and then the armor is a typed bonus to AC. Untyped bonuses to the one armor will stack with each other, even though different armors will not because the armor bonus itself is typed.
Similarly, the barkskin spell provides an enchancement bonus to natural armor, which increases the typed bonus that the natural armor provides; it's still one source of natural armor bonus and therefore "stacks" (it's not really stacking because it's part of the same single bonus value). The enhancement bonus is a typed bonus to natural armor, and then the natural armor is a typed bonus to AC. Untyped bonuses to the one natural armor will stack with each other, even though different natural armors will not because the natural armor bonus itself is typed.
Barkskin (typed bonus to natural armor), INA (untyped bonus to natural armor), and DD increases (untyped bonus to natural armor) will all add to any single existing natural armor value.
Savage barbarian (a source of natural armor), draconic bloodline (a source of natural armor), and Ironhide feat (a source of natural armor) will not stack, because they each provide the same typed bonus to AC. Don't take more than one of them.
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That does seem to clarify it somewhat.
I have scales from being a Dragon Disciple, if i also have a slightly tougher hide from being a half-orc (iron hide), this does not stack with the scales. If later on I get thicker skin, it doesn't trump the scales.
If I get an enhancement to my natural armour it will enhance the highest one (scales in this case).
So bonus from Iron Hide, Blood line and Savage Barbarian don't stack, they are like haveing 3, +1 armour bonuses, or carrying 3 bucklers...
I could enhance my natural armour with Barkskin, possibly an amulet of natural armour?
I could add to my Natural Armour with the Improved Natural Armour once I have a type of Natural Armour, in this case scales from being a Dragon Disciple.
For what its worth the PFSRD has already talked about this
Bonus (Natural Armor)
A natural armor bonus improves Armor Class resulting from a creature's naturally tough hide. Natural armor bonuses stack with all other bonuses to Armor Class (even with armor bonuses) except other natural armor bonuses. Some magical effects (such as the barkskin spell) grant an enhancement bonus to the creature's existing natural armor bonus, which has the effect of increasing the natural armor's overall bonus to Armor Class. A natural armor bonus doesn't apply against touch attacks.
I'd never seen that before. I must retract my position, and apologize, as this is pretty clear; natural armor bonuses do not stack, unless they specifically state they do.
So, going back to the OP, Patryn's explanation would be correct. Ironhide, a savage barbarian's natural toughness, and a draconic bloodline sorcerer's dragon resistances would not stack; only the greater of the three would function.
However, none of these abilities actually grant natural armor to a creature (which, incidentally, would stack with a natural armor bonus). They do not allow one to take the feat Improved Natural Armor. It also causes the question to be raised regarding the dragon disciple's natural armor increase; does the ability have any effect on a creature without natural armor. It's pretty safe to assume it's supposed to, but as written it does not.
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So for my character:
I have +3 Natural armour as a 4th level Dragon Disciple (unless I have to qualify for the first point at level 3 Dragon Disciple, in which case I have +2...)
There is no point getting Iron Hide as a feat, but I could duplicate the effect with Improved Natural Armour after gaining some natural armour from being a Dragon Disciple.
I can benefit from the low level benefits of Savage Barbarian (dodge bonus when wearing no armour), but the 7th level bonus to natural armour would not apply.
I could still benefit from an enhancement bonus to my natural armour such as barkskin or an amulet of natural armour. Still not very sure on the last one...
I could enhance my natural armour with Barkskin, possibly an amulet of natural armour?
Yes, you could. They generate an enhancement bonus to natural armor, which would be considered a separate type. Additionally, barkskin goes a step further to state that its effects do, in fact, stack.
I could add to my Natural Armour with the Improved Natural Armour once I have a type of Natural Armour, in this case scales from being a Dragon Disciple.
No. None of these abilities grant actual natural armor, only a natural armor bonus. You need actual natural armor to qualify for the feat.
...WHAT?
How do you define having natural armor, then, if not "Something which has a +1 or better Natural Armor bonus to AC?"
Because you can apply a natural armor bonus to a creature already possessing natural armor, as a benefit of its race. Unless you think you can't?
I don't understand your clarifying statement.
Sorry, that's my fault; I didn't word it very well. That said, you did clarify your opinion on the matter.
I'm under the impression that a creature possessing natural armor as a result of its race can still benefit from a natural armor bonus. For example a gnoll, possessing racial natural armor, would benefit fully from the draconic sorcerer's dragon resistances ability, that the ability would stack with its racial natural armor.
This question is separate from this discussion in a way; are natural armor and natural armor bonuses the same thing? I've always thought they were different. I mean if they're the same, why bother referring to one, but not both, as a bonus in the first place?
A gnoll Sorc (Draconic Bloodline) 1 would have a +1 natural armor bonus to AC, on account of being a gnoll. Total natural armor bonus: +1
This is my hangup. I've never seen a creature's racial natural armor described as a natural armor bonus. I'll admit it's not something I've ever looked for specifically, but I can't recall any instances.
Yes, they are - and "natural armor" (or "natural") is just a short form of "natural armor bonus to armor class", just like, in stat blocks (stealing from the gnoll again) ...
(+2 armor, +1 natural, +2 shield)
... armor is short for "armor bonus to armor class" and shield is short for...
I've seen shield being referred to as a "shield bonus to armor class" within the game's rules, and armor as an "armor bonus to armor class". But I've never seen this for natural armor. If you know where it is, I'd appreciate if you could point it out.
EDIT Scratch that; I found it mentioned in Appendix 1 of the Bestiary. You would be correct in this matter.
I thought racial natural armor bonuses stacked with those gained from class levels. After having read this, I'm a little less inclined to play a monstrous race.
Natural Armor Increase (Ex)
As his skin thickens, a dragon disciple takes on more and more of his progenitor's physical aspect. At 1st, 4th, and 7th level, a dragon disciple gains an increase to the character's existing natural armor (if any), as indicated on Table: Dragon Disciple. These armor bonuses stack.
That stacks. It says so right there.
"Natural Armor Bonus" doesn't stack with itself.
"Enhancement Bonus to Natural Armor" stacks with with everything but itself.
"The creature's natural armor bonus increases by +1." works as intended increasing the natural armor bonus by +1. This is not a "typed bonus" at all, it is increasing the typed bonus. There is an important and distinct difference here.
All that being said, I do frequent d20pfsrd.com as do many people who come to this site. It is a valuable resource. However, do not put a lot of stock into things that are there, it is not an official source. If there is a ruling there that is official it will typically give a link to the official FAQ. There has been no official FAQ on this issue and it seems pretty clear to me. However, I'll click FAQ as it is clear some are confused by the rules for this and Dev answers certain wouldn't hurt.