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Hi everyone, this is my first post, so please be so kind and help me out with this? Thank you.
I am trying to make a range or/ support cleric, with a focus on spell casting, hence a Wis of atleast 16. The point buy is 23 points, which is generous of our DM, but no matter how I go about it, I can't seem to come up with a proper build...
Here are some ideals I have been bouncing around:
1) Range Cleric of Erastil (Longbow)
Race: Human
Domains: Feather and Growth
Stats: Str 12, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14(+2)= 16, Cha 12
Role: Provide buffs before combat and proceed to stay at the back using range on targets. If there is a need, he will swap out a shield and go front line to tank.
2) Support traveling Cleric of Desna or Cayden Cailean
Race: Human
Domains: Travel (Exploration?) and Chaos or Luck or Liberation
Stats: Str 13, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16(+2)= 18, Cha 14
or
Stats: Str 12, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 15(+2)= 17, Cha 14
Role: Able to tank or go range with daggers, while providing buff support. Like build 3, will get selective channeling to be able to heal in battle.
(!)How important is speed in Pathfinder? Is the travel domain really gold?(!)
3) Support/Tanker Cleric of Sarenrae
Race: Human
Domains: Heroism or Glory and Restoration
Stats: Str 14, Dex 11, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14(+2)= 16, Cha 14
Role: Frontline tanker, while still being able to support the part with a buffs. Will get selective channeling to be able to heal in battle.
4) Glaive wielding Support Cleric with reach attack of Shelyn
Race: Human
Domains: Love and Luck
Stats: Str 13, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16(+2)= 18, Cha 14
Role: Buff heavy, while being able to stay behind melee party members and support damage with reach attacks. If foes starts targeting the cleric, will make use of the Love Domain powers to protect himself.
So are these builds do able?
I am NOT trying to build a battle/melee cleric, but a support/healer one that can still take on a secondary roll as a Tanker/DPR/Flanker.
Are there anything I am missing out? Please help? Thanks!
I'll just try and tackle option 1 for now. I would change the starting stat array to this:
Str 12, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 12, Wis 15(+2)= 17, Cha 10
Basically, drop the Con down to 12 and use those 3 points to buy up a starting Dex of 16. Drop the Cha down to 10 since it looks like you aren't intending to channel in combat with this character and instead buy up an extra point of Wisdom. You lose a little bit of HP, but you gain AC and to-hit bonus. As a back liner you shouldn't be taking too many hits.
I would also consider changing the Growth domain out for something else. The ability to enlarge yourself as a swift action is great for melee Clerics, but really hurts as a ranged/support Cleric. Also, for a support Cleric the normal Plant domains first level entangle can be a real fight ender, while enlarge person is only a good single target melee buff. Alternatively, going Law (Archon Subdomain) might be better. The spell list is situational, but the ability to let people effectively 'take 11' with a touch a few times a day can be unbelievably useful in those situations where someone keeps blowing a skill check under duress by not rolling above a 5. Erastil's domains aren't the greatest in general, but the longbow makes up for it.
Feat selection is probably going to be Point Blank Shot and Rapid Shot at level 1, Deadly Aim at level 3. At that point you should be doing pretty good ranged damage. You can also pick up Precise Shot at level 5 after that to shoot into melee, but until then you'll be better off trading arrows with enemy ranged attackers or buffing your allies than firing into melee.
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I notice that the suggested feats are all ranged combat ones. What about other feats like Extra Channeling and selective channeling? Should I get those?
Cos I see my char attacking at range, but going melee if there is a need... is that thinking to much? Should I just focus on range only?
And I go like the Law domain, but I usually go CG in alignment, can I still take the Law domain? Or should I consider taking Good instead?
Sorry for all the questions, but the vast amounts of options are making me go nuts!
I notice that the suggested feats are all ranged combat ones. What about other feats like Extra Channeling and selective channeling? Should I get those?
Cos I see my char attacking at range, but going melee if there is a need... is that thinking to much? Should I just focus on range only?
It is very difficult to be good at more than two different things. By going with a ranged Cleric you have chosen to focus on spell casting and ranged combat. Since you can't afford to invest in Charisma, picking up Channeling feats spreads you a bit thin. Channeling is still an excellent ability for you, it will just be used more often after fights to heal the party up.
Using a shield and entering melee as a flanker/tank is still sort of viable with this class, but you simply don't have the feats to spend to be good at both melee and ranged combat.
Also keep in mind that most combats are only three or four rounds long and you will probably spend your first round casting either a buff spell on your party or a debuff/battlefield control spell on the bad guys. That means if for some reason you do have to enter melee, it'll take your second turn to drop your bow, put on the shield, and draw a weapon, and then it'll actually be your third turn before you get to charge in and smack people. Depending on how the fight is going, it might even be over before you get to make that charge.
And I go like the Law domain, but I usually go CG in alignment, can I still take the Law domain? Or should I consider taking Good instead?
As Erastil is a Lawful Good deity, your alignment MUST be LG, NG, or LN. A Cleric must always be within one step of his deity's alignment. As any of those alignments you can take the Law Domain. Good is a fine domain to take as well, I just think the Touch of Law power is slightly better than the Touch of Good power.
Sorry for all the questions, but the vast amounts of options are making me go nuts!
No problem at all! I quite enjoy playing Clerics, so I'll keep on answering questions if you keep asking em.
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And I go like the Law domain, but I usually go CG in alignment, can I still take the Law domain? Or should I consider taking Good instead?As Erastil is a Lawful Good deity, your alignment MUST be LG, NG, or LN. A Cleric must always be within one step of his deity's alignment. As any of those alignments you can take the Law Domain. Good is a fine domain to take as well, I just think the Touch of Law power is slightly better than the Touch of Good power.
Oops! I meant the NG alignment. I usually play NG characters, so I was wondering if the Law, Chaos, Evil and Good Domains have any alignment restrictions, or is limited only by the god you worship. Thanks for clearing this up! :)
Question,So what do you think about the other builds? Is it possible to build a "spellcaster" cleric? Aka, is it worth getting a high starting Wis of say 18 after racial? Is such a build even viable???
Question,So what do you think about the other builds? Is it possible to build a "spellcaster" cleric? Aka, is it worth getting a high starting Wis of say 18 after racial? Is such a build even viable???
One of the builds you put together yourself actually looks pretty good for a spellcasting focused Cleric.
4) Glaive wielding Support Cleric with reach attack of Shelyn
Race: Human
Domains: Love and Luck
Stats: Str 13, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16(+2)= 18, Cha 14Role: Buff heavy, while being able to stay behind melee party members and support damage with reach attacks. If foes starts targeting the cleric, will make use of the Love Domain powers to protect himself.
As a spellcasting focused Cleric you are going to be focusing on battlefield control spells, with a dash of buff magic. You also want to focus on staying the heck away from the bad guys. This build does an excellent job of staying out of trouble between the reach and the Love domain power. If I was going to go pure spellcasting, I would probably swap the Str and Dex around so they end up as
Str 10, Dex 13, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 16(+2)= 18, Cha 14
You don't want to be making attack rolls if you can possibly avoid it, instead, you want to be crippling the other guys with spells so the rest of your party can kill them quickly and easily. You probably won't get to roll many damage dice with a spellcaster Cleric, but ou can still be the one who wins fights.
Feat selection will probably be Improved Initiative and Selective Channeling at level 1. You really want to go first, or at least early in in the initiative order, as often as possible with a spell focused Cleric. This lets you cripple groups of enemies before they have a chance to act or spread out. With 5 channels a day and 14 Charisma,the ability to exclude up to two enemies from your healing burst from Selective Channeling will actually make you a pretty effective emergency healer in combat as well as a good control spellcaster.
I might consider changing out the Luck Domain for the Protection (Defense) sub-domain. Both are pretty solid spell-lists, I just like that the Defense ability is a whole party buff instead of a single target (although more powerful) buff. Thats pretty much personal choice though.
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1) Range Cleric of Erastil (Longbow)
Race: Human
Domains: Animal and Plant
Stats:Str 11, Dex 16, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 17+2=19, Cha 14
Alternate Racial Traits: Eye for talent
Feets: Boon Companion, and range combat feets
2) Support traveling Cleric of Desna or Cayden Cailean
Race: Human
Domains: Travel and (Cayden Cailean Charm/Love subdomain) (Desna Liberation )
Stats: Str 10, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 17+2=19, Cha 14
Feets: channel improvements, and spell casting feets.
3) Support/Tanker Cleric of Sarenrae
Race: Human
Domains: Glory/Heroims subdomain and Sun
Stats: Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 15+2=17, Cha 14
Feets: channel improvements, spell casting, and shield fighting
4) Glaive wielding Support Cleric with reach attack of Shelyn
Race: Human
Domains: Charm/Love subdomain and Luck
Stats: Str 16, Dex 10, Con 14, Int 7, Wis 15+2=17, Cha 14
Feets: Channel improvements, and spell casting
All of them can work and do very well. I recomend going with more casting and channel. Then combat abilitys as you want a suport cleric. Your first two are the best for this. From a crunch point of view Erastil is probly the best. I'm a fan of Cayden Cailean. How can you go wrong with the god of freedom, wine, and bravery.
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I was makeing the same mastake. Untill I was told difrent on thes bord and looke it up my self.
Cleric skill points 2 - Int2= 1 mini +1 Human = 2
So as a human a 7 to 9 Int. Is the same amount of skill points. Cleric need 3 stats mini. So your starved for points and the only one stat that dose not hurt the cleric is Int.
That and your not realy a skill based character. So the lose of skill points dose not affect you as much.
You only place 7 Int for all your suggestions... is there are reason for that? Won't you end up with like only 1 skill point per level?!??!?!
0 actually since 7 is the -2 point. He'd have to put class skills from favored class in there or be skillless.
This is essentially bad but not crippling.
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calagnar's right mechanically. Or at least stating the commonly held opinion.
That said, the roleplaying disadvantages of playing an Int 7 character don't strike me personally as much fun, nor the advantages gained as significant enough to offset them.
From a pure optimization perspective he's quite correct, but I wouldn't play any of the characters he's made in a million years, and probably wouldn't allow players in a game I ran to do so either. Playing too far above or below your own intellect is...difficult, and often less than fun.
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About optimization... Do clerics really need high starting stats in 1 or 2 stats? (18+)? calagnar's suggestions all have at least 17 wis...
Is there a BIG difference between starting at 16 Wis or 18+ Wis?
As a buffer with some offensive spell casting, hold person...etc, is starting at 16 wis too low??? Should I try to get at least 17?
As I am currently thinking about using build 1) ranger cleric of Erastil, and given that, I feel it may be prudent to have 12 intel and only 16 wis (adding wis at each lv stat boost), as I want a good array of support skills and not just a "good in combat" cleric. Are skills over rated for clerics??? Is 16 wis... "asking for it"?
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About optimization... Do clerics really need high starting stats in 1 or 2 stats? (18+)? calagnar's suggestions all have at least 17 wis...
Is there a BIG difference between starting at 16 Wis or 18+ Wis?
As a buffer with some offensive spell casting, hold person...etc, is starting at 16 wis too low??? Should I try to get at least 17?As I am currently thinking about using build 1) ranger cleric of Erastil, and given that, I feel it may be prudent to have 12 intel and only 16 wis (adding wis at each lv stat boost), as I want a good array of support skills and not just a "good in combat" cleric. Are skills over rated for clerics??? Is 16 wis... "asking for it"?
16 Wis is fine. That's what most non-human Clerics need to get by with, after all. It's not as optimized as 18, but it'll certainly do.
The multiclassing, on the other hand, is a really bad idea. Primary spellcasters can almost never afford to give up caster levels, and usually only should if they're getting a really good Prestige Class out of it. Not a level of Ranger
Besides, as an Int 12 human, you can have 5 skill points a level if you're willing to forego the bonus HP from Favored Class. That'll almost certainly be enough for your needs.
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I meant a range Cleric. Sorry about that! Typo. Range-attacking cleirc, aka using a longbow cleric of Erastil.
I plain to go all 20 levels as a cleric.
Which leads to another question I have.
How important is speed??? I keep hearing some others say how important the travel domain is... cos of the +10' speed boost.
Is speed that important? Are the only 2 deities with travel domains, a must have to worship?
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And Saying a 7 is very low is like saying a 13 is extremly high. There the same distance from base of 10. So pleas get over it if you don't like dump stats don't use them. How ever if your making a MAD character you will need to.
Yes starting wis is that important if your going for a support/casting cleric. At lower levels it's not as important and you will not notice
a difrence. How ever around the mid levels 8-12 you will see it start to come to a head. This is where saves start out striping your ability to incresses your spell DC. And at level 16+ it's almost imposable to get spells to land if you did not focuse on your spell DC and spell penatration.
Base speed is important becous there are only a few ways to get it. mobility counts for a lot. That is why the travil and liberation domains are so powerfull when used to gether.
Personly my favort is Cayden Cailean. Second wold be Shelyn.
And Saying a 7 is very low is like saying a 13 is extremly high. There the same distance from base of 10.
Except that with a point buy the real average for a PC is going to be between 12 and 14 depending on the point buy used. So yes, a 7 is quite poor in that it is 5 to 7 points below average, and a 17+ is quite good in that it is 5+ points above average. I'm not saying you should never dump stats, I certainly have done it before and even did with a character I am playing now, but its not always great. Also, two skill points per level is really, really poor. It pretty much forces you to put them in to Spellcraft and Knowledge (Religion), which means no Perception, no Diplomacy, not even a point for Heal. What can I say, I like skill points.
Base speed is pretty good to have if you can get it. Its not worth changing deity's if it doesn't fit your character concept just to get the extra movement... but if you CAN get the Travel domain you absolutely should. The exception is possibly for Dwarf Clerics as they can move 30 feet in medium and heavy armor with the Travel domain, something only higher level Fighters can do normally (that is to say, without spells).
As I am currently thinking about using build 1) ranger cleric of Erastil, and given that, I feel it may be prudent to have 12 intel and only 16 wis (adding wis at each lv stat boost), as I want a good array of support skills and not just a "good in combat" cleric.
I have a friend playing a 6th level longbow-using Cleric of Erastil at the moment, I don't think he has taken a point of damage from melee combat yet. I also don't think he took a hit in our entire last session at all (we only had 3 combats though, and one of those was a total slaughter of the NPCs thanks to some smart spell casting and good rolls) so they definitely can be pretty effective. More importantly, I know he is having a great time with it.
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And Saying a 7 is very low is like saying a 13 is extremly high. There the same distance from base of 10. So pleas get over it if you don't like dump stats don't use them. How ever if your making a MAD character you will need to.
I have no issues with dump stats, I have issues with the roleplaying reprecussions of dumping Int. Hell, for most of my players (who happen to be very smart people) I have issues with them not having Int above 10!
Roleplaying people who are a lot less intelligent than you is challenging (much more so than any other Ability, IMO), and particularly counter to the attitude involved n min-maxing a character (which involves a very specific variety of intellect). You can do it, but you're roleplaying the character wrong if they use anything beyond very basic tactics...which is almost never how an optimized character gets played.
If you specifically envision the character as dumb, and want that particular RP challenge, that's one thing, but just dropping Int to 7 for extra points? Not a good idea.
And saying that Int 7 isn't that low is disingenuous. Ogres have an Int right around there. So your character is about as smart as an Ogre, and stupider than the average Orc or Gnoll. Which is to say, really dumb...unless you have Int 8 monsters using complex tactics and solving problems intelligently as par for the course in your games.
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I seam to rember that in 3.0 and 3.5 point buy. Your starting stats where all 8. Curent the base is 10. Avarge of 3D6 is 10 that is your base line for avarge. So if a 13 dose not make you a genies. A 7 dose not make you have the Int of a box of rocks. You are a bit slower then the average person this dose not make you mental handy caped.
If you use high point buy, or rolling 4D6 drop lowest. You will have a higher avarge. This dose not change the game is base off of 15 point buy, or the old 3D6. With a 15 point buy you have to use dump stats to make the character. I have found that after my group moved to using 15 point buy I like it much better. It forces you to make choices on what you want your character to do. And very hard to make characters that can do it all.
I seam to rember that in 3.0 and 3.5 point buy. Your starting stats where all 8. Curent the base is 10. Avarge of 3D6 is 10 that is your base line for avarge. So if a 13 dose not make you a genies. A 7 dose not make you have the Int of a box of rocks.
You're also dumber then the average kobold, elemental, hobgoblin, goblin etc.
So yes, from an in game standpoint you are dumber then a creature who sincerely believes that reading will suck out your brains.
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I don't really understand why people insist so much on having to roleplay bad mental stats, even to the point of putting themselves or their group in danger, in addition to the mechanical drawbacks that already come from the low scores. I do not remember that I have seen the same accent put on roleplaying low physical stats.
Of course, roleplaying a simpleton can be quite fun if the player wants it so and if it does not detract from the group's ability to succeed at its assignments. I had a lot of fun playing my bimbo Sorceress when her INT temporarily went down to 3. But it should not be forced on the player IMHO.
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I don't really understand why people insist so much on having to roleplay bad mental stats, even to the point of putting themselves or their group in danger, in addition to the mechanical drawbacks that already come from the low scores. I do not remember that I have seen the same accent put on roleplaying low physical stats.
Precisely how does one roleplay a low Strength? Beyond not doing the heavy lifting and worrying about encumberance and such? I've never noticed a substantial difference between people's personalities based on physical strength or speed in the real world, why should there be one in the game?
Intellect, common sense, or charm on the other hand make a huge difference in how one behaves. Being less likable or more reckless than you really are is just a bit easier than being significantly dumber. Playing a smarter character than you are is hard, too, but you often have more time to think than your character does, which helps.
Of course, roleplaying a simpleton can be quite fun if the player wants it so and if it does not detract from the group's ability to succeed at its assignments. I had a lot of fun playing my bimbo Sorceress when her INT temporarily went down to 3. But it should not be forced on the player IMHO.
Uh...I'm not forcing anything. They can (and mostly should) avoid low Int scores if they wish to avoid playing a less-than-bright character.
I mean, saying that the players don't have to roleplay, say, being stupid (if their character is) is every bit as silly as the GM playing Ogres as tactical geniuses who never make mistakes (something that the GM should not do, and I see complained about a lot).
I don't really understand why people insist so much on having to roleplay bad mental stats, even to the point of putting themselves or their group in danger, in addition to the mechanical drawbacks that already come from the low scores. I do not remember that I have seen the same accent put on roleplaying low physical stats.
Primarily because it gets exemplified much more in terms of mechanics. Just think about ones Strength score. It determines how much you carry, how much you can push, pull, or even destroy with physical power.
Mental stats only come up when skill rolls are made. Thus the biggest indicator in-game is how one role plays. If you're jumping around with an int of 6 you are not making complex plans and plots designed to give you complete and total victory over characters with Int30. However you'll get people that do exactly that. Do you make these people roll their stat in order to let them complete that action? Of course not.
But this is a tangent that can be saved for another thread.
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Base speed is pretty good to have if you can get it. Its not worth changing deity's if it doesn't fit your character concept just to get the extra movement... but if you CAN get the Travel domain you absolutely should. The exception is possibly for Dwarf Clerics as they can move 30 feet in medium and heavy armor with the Travel domain, something only higher level Fighters can do normally (that is to say, without spells).
I totally forgot about that! Humm.... RPing a dwarf cleric of Cayden Cailean seems kinda fun! And I think can pull it off, acting out a dwarf character. NOT a drunk dwarf... more of a boisterous and rowdy character.
I think this is the best other option, other then a Human Range Cleric of Erastil.
Ok... I got 3 builds for a Dwarf Cleric of Cayden Cailean:
(From most favorite to least)
1)NG, High Wis Spellcaster. (not max wis)
Main Role: Support/buffer/healer/face
Sec Role: Tanker with limited Dps
Stats:Str 14, Dex 12, Con 12+2=14, Int 12, Wis 15+2=17, Cha 14-2=12
Domains: Exploration (Travel) and Good or maybe Chaos
Skill focus: Knowledge (Religion), Spellcraft, Diplo and Perception. A few points in Heal and Sense Motive.
Stats spread out quite evenly with 17 in Wis. 12 in Int for 4 points of skills spread. 12 Dex for some extra armor. 12 charisma even with the -2 due to role-play reasons, its hard to believe that common folk would dislike a cleric of Cayden Cailean :)
2)NG, Balanced Str and Wis Frontline tanker
Main Role: Support/buffer/healer and Tanking frontliner
Sec Role: Dps
Stats:Str 16, Dex 12, Con 12+2=14, Int 12, Wis 14+2=16, Cha 12-2=10
Domains: Exploration (Travel) and Good or maybe Chaos
Skill focus: Knowledge (Religion), Spellcraft, Diplo OR Intimidate and Perception. A few points in Heal and Sense Motive.
Stats balanced between Str and Wis. Able to deal damage on the frontline. A more "figher" like build with less Cha... Will be more rowdy?
3)NG, Max Wis Spellcaster. The lovely
Main Role: Support/buffer/healer
Sec Role: Tanker with limited Dps
Stats:Str 14, Dex 12, Con 12+2=14, Int 12, Wis 16+2=18, Cha 12-2=10
Domains: Exploration (Travel) and Good or maybe Chaos
Skill focus: Knowledge (Religion), Spellcraft, Diplo and Perception. A few points in Heal and Sense Motive.
A build like the first one, but focus SOLELY on getting Wis as high as possible. Lacks Cha like the 2nd build.
If I do go with a Dwarf cleric of Cayden Cailean, which is better?
IS there anything I missed out?
This dose not change the game is base off of 15 point buy, or the old 3D6. With a 15 point buy you have to use dump stats to make the character. I have found that after my group moved to using 15 point buy I like it much better. It forces you to make choices on what you want your character to do. And very hard to make characters that can do it all.
Ahhh.... Lets just assume that you have a higher point buy... like 23...
I want to build a support/buffer cleric, but one that I can role-play too. I am trying to optimize my build and make one that won't be a liability to the party. I am not seeking to min-maxing my character all the way.
I hope you can understand that.
I don't really understand why people insist so much on having to roleplay bad mental stats, even to the point of putting themselves or their group in danger, in addition to the mechanical drawbacks that already come from the low scores. I do not remember that I have seen the same accent put on roleplaying low physical stats.
Of course, roleplaying a simpleton can be quite fun if the player wants it so and if it does not detract from the group's ability to succeed at its assignments. I had a lot of fun playing my bimbo Sorceress when her INT temporarily went down to 3. But it should not be forced on the player IMHO.
I believe the stats/skills/etc of my characters should reflect how they are role-played and still try to be functional.
If I am forced upon with a low Int/Cha/Wis character I would try to RP them as such. A low Wis character may ask questions that are inappropriate or perform silly actions.
"How do I look? This Human clothes are quite comfortable!", says the Male Gnome wearing the tong and bra. (an Example)
Therefore... I usually try to balance my stats/skills so that even with low scores in some stats my characters are still functional.
For example a cleric of Sheyln could have more Cha, no matter what his/her physical looks are, as I would believe that such a char would be RPed to be more endearing/liked by others.
Even with say a lower defense due to wearing light armor, he/she can still defend himself with say the Love domain's power, therefore not being a liability to the group, while still being able to RP.
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With all the ideals and suggestions thrown about, I made 2 final ideals for my cleric:
So which do you all think would be a better support Cleric?
A Human range/longbow using Cleric of Erastil?
Which levels more like a archer, dealing damage from afar and gets a animal companion later. Taking the Boon Companion feat to make up for the levels lost.
Role-Play value: I am not too sure how to RP him. Should he have a ranger like attitude? A traditional/conservative out look as a cleric of Erastil? "You should get a husband!" Type of arrhh... person.
Or may be he is more like a PETA/Greenpeace spokesman? Be kind to animals. Hate industries that destroy the environment. Make love not war?
OR
Or a Dwarf sword and shield Cleric of Cayden Cailean?
Which plays more like a traditional cleric. Going in close combat to help tank and deal damage. Will focus a bit more on spell casting and takes the travel domain for the speed boost, making him as fast as any human.
Role-Play value: I see him as a NG character. A rowdy, all laughs and cheer person with a sarcastic tongue. "Ohhh..... did the big scary Elf scared you? Hummm... did he? Shh... Shh.... there is no need to explain, here drink this, its good for nerves." :P.
I have pretty much boiled down to this 2 options on what makes a good support cleric that can be ROLE-PLAYED, but I need some final inputs and suggestion. Is there any other options I am missing out on? Maybe one of my earlier suggestions is better? Am I am RPing them wrong? May be YOU got a better ideal? :)
Please help!
With all the ideals and suggestions thrown about, I made 2 final ideals for my cleric:
So which do you all think would be a better support Cleric?A Human range/longbow using Cleric of Erastil?
Which levels more like a archer, dealing damage from afar and gets a animal companion later. Taking the Boon Companion feat to make up for the levels lost.Role-Play value: I am not too sure how to RP him. Should he have a ranger like attitude? A traditional/conservative out look as a cleric of Erastil? "You should get a husband!" Type of arrhh... person.
Or may be he is more like a PETA/Greenpeace spokesman? Be kind to animals. Hate industries that destroy the environment. Make love not war?
OR
Or a Dwarf sword and shield Cleric of Cayden Cailean?
Which plays more like a traditional cleric. Going in close combat to help tank and deal damage. Will focus a bit more on spell casting and takes the travel domain for the speed boost, making him as fast as any human.Role-Play value: I see him as a NG character. A rowdy, all laughs and cheer person with a sarcastic tongue. "Ohhh..... did the big scary Elf scared you? Hummm... did he? Shh... Shh.... there is no need to explain, here drink this, its good for nerves." :P.
I have pretty much boiled down to this 2 options on what makes a good support cleric that can be ROLE-PLAYED, but I need some final inputs and suggestion. Is there any other options I am missing out on? Maybe one of my earlier suggestions is better? Am I am RPing them wrong? May be YOU got a better ideal? :)
Please help!
Both sound like fun, but I'll tell you right now that the cleric archer of ersatil will ultimately be more effective mechanically if only because you can snatch up the feather domain adn get yourself a cool pet and get good. The trouble with sword adn board clerics is the difficulty in casting without using like a buckler.
Both will definitely be fun to play as well as effective. TarkXT is right in that as a sword and shield Cleric you have to use a buckler or a light shield to cast if you want to do magic with your sword out. And using the light shield can be seen as slightly cheesy by your GM depending on how they feel about it, since the action sequence to cast is pass sword to shield hand (free), cast spell with now empty sword hand (standard), pass sword from shield hand back to sword hand (free).
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The faiths of purity book is more about the followers. There is a lot of flavor in it and will help explan why followers of deitys adventure. It's very crunch light and flavor heavy. And unlike most divine books the focuse is on the followers not the deitys. Making it the best book on deitys I'v seen so far.
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Thanks for the advice and tips. I think I will be playing the Cleric Archer of Ersatil! :)
So what feats should I get?
I am planning to take the Eye for Talent trait, but I lose the bonus feat of humans. So which which feats and in what order should I get them?
I know Point blank Shot is a must, due to it being a prereg for other range feats, but should I take the Boon Companion feat at lv 5? And what about meta-magic feats like Extend Spell?
What do you all suggest?
The faiths of purity book is more about the followers. There is a lot of flavor in it and will help explan why followers of deitys adventure. It's very crunch light and flavor heavy. And unlike most divine books the focuse is on the followers not the deitys. Making it the best book on deitys I'v seen so far.
I am planning to get at asap. It looks like great read! (And helpful for character building.) :)
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Thanks for the advice and tips. I think I will be playing the Cleric Archer of Ersatil! :)
So what feats should I get?
I am planning to take the Eye for Talent trait, but I lose the bonus feat of humans. So which which feats and in what order should I get them?
I know Point blank Shot is a must, due to it being a prereg for other range feats, but should I take the Boon Companion feat at lv 5? And what about meta-magic feats like Extend Spell?
What do you all suggest?
I wouldn't take Eye for Talent, IMO, it's just not worth it. A +2 to one of the animal companion's stats is a decent trade-in for a Feat...but not for the feat-starved Cleric. At least not unless you're starting at 11th level plus or something.
I'd personally go pure Archer, with Point Blank Shot and either Rapid Shot or Precise Shot at 1st, and then the other of those at 3rd level, then grab Boon Companion at 5th, Deadly Aim at 7th, and then Manyshot at 9th. You'll be a very effective and dangerous character that way.
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I wouldn't take Eye for Talent, IMO, it's just not worth it. A +2 to one of the animal companion's stats is a decent trade-in for a Feat...but not for the feat-starved Cleric. At least not unless you're starting at 11th level plus or something.
My original ideal was to take Eye for Talent to place 2 points into an animal companion's Int score, giving it at least 4 Int.
Is this a wrong approach? If so, what stats should I "up" on my animal companion? (Given that I am taking Boon Companion and will have a lv 6 companion at lv 5.)I'd personally go pure Archer, with Point Blank Shot and either Rapid Shot or Precise Shot at 1st, and then the other of those at 3rd level, then grab Boon Companion at 5th, Deadly Aim at 7th, and then Manyshot at 9th. You'll be a very effective and dangerous character that way.
Does this means I should not take any "traditional" cleric feats like extend spell, extra channeling...etc?
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My original ideal was to take Eye for Talent to place 2 points into an animal companion's Int score, giving it at least 4 Int.
Is this a wrong approach? If so, what stats should I "up" on my animal companion? (Given that I am taking Boon Companion and will have a lv 6 companion at lv 5.)
Actually, it doesn't let you go over your HD, so it'll only be a level 5 companion. Still, that's not bad at all.
And yeah, if you want to raise Int use the Attribute Point you'll have from it being a level 5 Animal Companion. Having higher Int is very useful, but, well, a +2 there isn't worth a Feat. As for what stats you should up...that really depends on the Companion. What animal were you thinking of?
Does this means I should not take any "traditional" cleric feats like extend spell, extra channeling...etc?
Well, Channeling is cool, but you've honestly got enough of it, and Metamagic isn't going to be really useful till at least 9th level or so anyway, so putting it off till 11th doesn't hurt you.
See, that listing? All the Archery Feats you need. You can grab more if you like, but you can also focus almost entirely on magic stuff thereafter if you want.
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Actually, it doesn't let you go over your HD, so it'll only be a level 5 companion. Still, that's not bad at all.
And yeah, if you want to raise Int use the Attribute Point you'll have from it being a level 5 Animal Companion. Having higher Int is very useful, but, well, a +2 there isn't worth a Feat. As for what stats you should up...that really depends on the Companion. What animal were you thinking of?
Well... since I am playing a Cleric of Erastil with the Feather subdomain, I am thinking of making my Cleric a falconer/hunter by trade, so his animal companion would most likely be a bird of prey.
I do realize that the options on animal companions with "feathers" are VERY limited. So its a falcon/eagle, or if my DM is ok with it a Roc.If possible I may want to place a few ranks in riding and animal handling to use a Roc at lv 7 as a mount.
I am not sure what other animal companions would be good to have... any suggestions? (Oh! and what feats should they take as well.)
1 more question:
On Ultimate Magic
With Ultimate Magic coming up in may, I am seriously wondering if I should just make a "traditional" cleric. One that is not so fix in a given role, in this case an archer. With the possibility of specialized uses for channel energy, I fear making a character that will "box himself" into a corner when it comes to leveling and expanding pass lv 1.
Arrrhhhh!!! Making a character is so tough! (Too many options!!!)
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Roc is in the bestery 2 as a animal companion. So its alowed and starts out as meduim and becomes large. Not sure what books your DM is alowing.
Feets Caster with some range attack and mounted combat.
1: Point Blank Shot
3: Precise Shot
5: Extra Channel
7: Mounted Combat
9: Mounted Archery
11: Spell Penatration
Eye for Talent is a good choice. You just have to tough it out for a few levels befor it comes in to play. Using it to incress the Int is not a bad idea but not a great idea. Incressing the Int to 3 is all that is needed. So your animal companion after level 7 is gold. One large flying mount hope you have put skill points in ride.
Roc
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; AC +5 natural armor; Speed 20 ft., fly 80 ft.; Attack 2 talons (1d4), bite (1d6)Secondary attack; Ability Scores Str 14 (12+2 Eye for Talent), Dex 19 , Con 9, Int3 (2+1 level4), Wis 13, Cha 11; Special Qualities low-light vision.
7th-Level Advancement: Size Large; AC +3 natural armor; Attack 2 talons (1d6 plus grab), bite (1d8); Ability Scores Str 24(14+8Size+2Characer level) , Dex 19 (19-2size+2Character level), Con 13 (9+4Size). Large Str24 Light466 lbs. or less Meduim468–932 lbs. Heavy934–1400lbs. So just keap your total load below 466lbs. And of you go airborne.
I'm sorry but playing a character with 7 int is pure cheese, let's not try and disguise as anything else other than exploiting the rules to maximize your character. Same thing with character with 7 CHA. you are basically stating "I have no interest in serious role-play, I just want to kick some ass on the dice."
not saying what's right and wrong, but I find it funny when people try and disguise their attempts at optimization as legitimate role-playing.
LOL, dumb as an ogre...Nuff Said
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Thanks for the suggestions. These are 2 very different takes on a Archer Cleric.
Roc is in the bestery 2 as a animal companion. So its alowed and starts out as meduim and becomes large. Not sure what books your DM is alowing.
Feets Caster with some range attack and mounted combat.
1: Point Blank Shot
3: Precise Shot
5: Extra Channel
7: Mounted Combat
9: Mounted Archery
11: Spell PenatrationEye for Talent is a good choice. You just have to tough it out for a few levels befor it comes in to play. Using it to incress the Int is not a bad idea but not a great idea. Incressing the Int to 3 is all that is needed. So your animal companion after level 7 is gold. One large flying mount hope you have put skill points in ride.
I notice you did not recommend the Boon Companion feat, given that Animal Domain Cleric's Animal Companions are -3 in lv... won't I need to wait till lv 10 without the feat, before I can use a Roc as a mount?
Oh and the reason I say if my DM allows it, its that storywise, Rocs just don't pop up any where. I feel it must be justify how I got it.
Also on your feat choice. I love your suggestion of taking the Mounted feats... but why give up the Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim and Manyshot feats?
Is it just better to be mainly spellcaster with just a touch of archer, over a more archer heavy build?
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It's worth noting that the recent blog post about animal intelligence basically means that increasing their intelligence to 3 or higher is almost completely pointless.It opens up some feat lines (probably the teamwork feats, most noticeably) but doesn't allow them to understand requests outside of the "trick" system, and really has no other mechanical benefit, like, at all. It basically took what used to be a cool option and turned it pretty terrible.
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Thanks for the suggestions. These are 2 very different takes on a Archer Cleric.
Roc is in the bestery 2 as a animal companion. So its alowed and starts out as meduim and becomes large. Not sure what books your DM is alowing.
Feets Caster with some range attack and mounted combat.
1: Point Blank Shot
3: Precise Shot
5: Extra Channel
7: Mounted Combat
9: Mounted Archery
11: Spell PenatrationEye for Talent is a good choice. You just have to tough it out for a few levels befor it comes in to play. Using it to incress the Int is not a bad idea but not a great idea. Incressing the Int to 3 is all that is needed. So your animal companion after level 7 is gold. One large flying mount hope you have put skill points in ride.
I notice you did not recommend the Boon Companion feat, given that Animal Domain Cleric's Animal Companions are -3 in lv... won't I need to wait till lv 10 without the feat, before I can use a Roc as a mount?
Oh and the reason I say if my DM allows it, its that storywise, Rocs just don't pop up any where. I feel it must be justify how I got it.
Also on your feat choice. I love your suggestion of taking the Mounted feats... but why give up the Rapid Shot, Deadly Aim and Manyshot feats?
Is it just better to be mainly spellcaster with just a touch of archer, over a more archer heavy build?
ya got me I for got it. Replace exta channel with boon companion. The reson for mounted feets. As a 3/4 BAB class you need all the to hit you can get. Using spells to incresses your to hit bouns dose you little to no good unless your making a battle cleric. If your going for support roll your primary stat is Wis and secondary is Dex. So with a lower dex any feet that incresses your damage but reduces your to hit. Will have a net lose of damage becous of your low starting to hit bouns.
Optimization is required if you want your character to work. Saying that optimization is bad. Is like saying my character can't do what they should, but im role playing it well. So I should be able to do it. What ever the case is optimization is not role playing, but role playing can't make up for porely made charaters. Role playing can make up for optimization of characters. And still be fun to play.
Makeing a character for me is a 3 step process.
1. Character concept.
2. Make the character.
3. If I can't get the character to work. With the concept and optimization. I start over.
Playing a porely made character is not fun. Playing a well made and though out charater is fun. It will work as intended by the player.
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It's worth noting that the recent blog post about animal intelligence basically means that increasing their intelligence to 3 or higher is almost completely pointless.It opens up some feat lines (probably the teamwork feats, most noticeably) but doesn't allow them to understand requests outside of the "trick" system, and really has no other mechanical benefit, like, at all. It basically took what used to be a cool option and turned it pretty terrible.
Can please link to the particular blog post?
What are the specific changes? Thanks.I would not take the mounted feats, simply take the penalty to fire on the mount the few times you want the mount to double move or run.
You simply don't have the feats to spare for 2 situational feats like this.
I have to agree with you on this one. I want to have a mount, but I don't see myself fighting in it all the time. Most likely I would have my animal companion guard me as I support the party, or maybe have it distract an enemy.
You have 1 free feat (if human) on your level 1 through level 9 feats.
Level 11 and 13 can salt to taste, while level 15 likely should be improved precise shot.
Are you supporting Deadmanwalking's ideal of a more Archer orientated feat selection for the first 9 levels?
First consider if you want an animal companion. You could elect to sell (actually I prefer lease) your soul to the diabolist PrC for a level. It would require you to be LN and would be very strange as a cleric of a LG deity.
Arh.... Diabolist is kinda out of the question. I am thinking of a NG character and playing a Diablist... lol... just not my cup of tea.
If you do go with the animal companion then boon companion is a must. If you do not you might consider the law domain, while it doesn't give the great perception bonus the take 11 is very nice and archon subdomain can be useful if you like.
But I figure that you will go with the animal (feather) domain, so you really only have 2 later feats before 17th.
One of these should be quicken spell (for divine favor or the like). Spell perfection on this, while nice.. just really isn't feasible as it would require 2 other metamagics before the other feat.. basically taking you all the way to 19th.. by which time saving spell slots isn't useful.
The other likely should either be leadership (if allowed), an item creation feat (if not taken by other party members), or look out (for a full round action during the surprise round.. this is basically an archer feat imho.. especially with what your perception check should be).
In short, I think 'what goes into a range/support cleric' the answer would be 'all of your feats'.
I am going with the Feather and Good domains. I do noticed that Boon Companion seems to be made for rangers and clerics with Animal Companions. Its almost like a feat tax to get a on level Animal Companion.
Notice this is not putting anything into channeling (even selective channel) as you can't afford to do so without paying for it via your animal companion (and full companion vs -3 levels is the difference between useful and speed bump).
I understand that channeling feats will be hard to spec into, at least for this build. Hence, I am wondering if its a good ideal to go forward with this build. As other sources like Ultimate Magic would be out later and there may be feats in there that key of channeling.
Look into the 'guided' weapon property and check with your DM on it's inclusion into your campaign.
This does seems nice. I got the info from www.d20pfsrd.com. But I also notice that its not under the "standard" Magic Weapon Special Ability Descriptions. The source being from Pathfinder AP #10 22.
By this I believe that its from a Pathfinder Adventure Path?
can use the Core Rulebook, the Advanced Players Guide, Ultimate Magic, and any other player-related materials approved by Paizo for use by players (not GMs) with the game. That means no bringing your Bestiary, Bestiary 2 or GM Guide.
I am seriously not certain that I can use such an item. If a such an item appears, it will most likely be at my DM's discretion.
In any case, thanks for letting me know about this. Its nice to know that there is an item that favors Clerics.Consider your traits to get one to make Perception a class skill. The other (if you use 2 traits like PFS does) I would suggest making stealth a class skill as well. Otherwise lower the cost of quickened divine favor to a 4th level spell vs a 5th level spell for when you pick it up (somewhere between 7th and 11th level).
Figure what skills you want beyond perception. I would suggest stealth. Then dip into others with single ranks by favored class bonuses. If you really feel you need sense motive go for it
I can see your point in this, but given my already low amount of skill points, I find it a tight squeeze to get many ranks in Stealth.
Should I make Stealth a focus? Or just get it up to say 5?I'd go with stats:
STR 12 (2pts)
INT 07 (-4pts)
WIS 19 (13pts, +2 racial)
DEX 14 (5pts)
CON 12 (2pts)
CHA 12 (2pts)This is a 20pt buy, as you have 3 more points you can raise one of the 12s to a 14. Bump WIS each time and use guided to let you hit well with your weapons.
I got a 23 point buy. :)
I noticed that you place 7 in Int... given the already small number of skill points that a cleric gets... is this wise?
And for RP reasons, I find it hard to justify having a low Int score. So why go so low? Is there something I am not seeing here?
On the WIS 19. Like the Int score, is there a reason to get it so high at the start? Given that I see myself as a support cleric and not an offensive spellcaster, do I really need such a high Wis score?
Finally, I got conflicting suggestions on the Dex score. Some are suggesting I take 14 Dex, but others say 16. Is there any difference why?
Sorry for asking so much, but I am kinda new to Pathfinder and I'm still trying to figure out the game system.
ya got me I for got it. Replace exta channel with boon companion. The reson for mounted feets. As a 3/4 BAB class you need all the to hit you can get. Using spells to incresses your to hit bouns dose you little to no good unless your making a battle cleric. If your going for support roll your primary stat is Wis and secondary is Dex. So with a lower dex any feet that incresses your damage but reduces your to hit. Will have a net lose of damage becous of your low starting to hit bouns.
Optimization is required if you want your character to work. Saying that optimization is bad. Is like saying my character can't do what they should, but im role playing it well. So I should be able to do it. What ever the case is optimization is not role playing, but role playing can't make up for porely made charaters. Role playing can make up for optimization of characters. And still be fun to play.
Makeing a character for me is a 3 step process.
1. Character concept.
2. Make the character.
3. If I can't get the character to work. With the concept and optimization. I start over.
Playing a porely made character is not fun. Playing a well made and though out charater is fun. It will work as intended by the player.
I am thinking of a STR 12, DEX 16, CON 12, INT, 12, WIS 14+2=16, CHA 12 build. A balanced mix between DEX and WIS, with leveling stats going into WIS. You did mention that a high WIS is preferable for a Support Cleric, but what about a Archer Support Cleric? Can I with 16 DEX, be a Support Cleric and still be a competent Archer, taking the multi-attack range combat feats?
OR
Should I just stick to being a Support Cleric, who can shot an arrow at the monsters each round? Taking other "traditional" feats like the extra channel? (Since I may not go into mounted feats.)
And I DO want to optimize my character, I am just afraid of munchkin-ing the character's build over my character ideal.
BUT! That is why I am asking you all for ideals and suggestion. If I could do this alone, I won't be asking for help. So thank you all!
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Can please link to the particular blog post?
What are the specific changes? Thanks.
I have to agree with you on this one. I want to have a mount, but I don't see myself fighting in it all the time. Most likely I would have my animal companion guard me as I support the party, or maybe have it distract an enemy.
Yeah, I really wouldn't bother wih those.
Are you supporting Deadmanwalking's ideal of a more Archer orientated feat selection for the first 9 levels?
I certainly am, but then, you knew that. :)
Arh.... Diabolist is kinda out of the question. I am thinking of a NG character and playing a Diablist... lol... just not my cup of tea.
It's not spectacular anyway. The Imp companion is cool, but not game-breakingly awesome or anything.
I am going with the Feather and Good domains. I do noticed that Boon Companion seems to be made for rangers and clerics with Animal Companions. Its almost like a feat tax to get a on level Animal Companion.
A little, yeah.
I understand that channeling feats will be hard to spec into, at least for this build. Hence, I am wondering if its a good ideal to go forward with this build. As other sources like Ultimate Magic would be out later and there may be feats in there that key of channeling.
I doubt it. Or at least nothing that's better than spells plus Archery.
This does seems nice. I got the info from www.d20pfsrd.com. But I also notice that its not under the "standard" Magic Weapon Special Ability Descriptions. The source being from Pathfinder AP #10 22.
By this I believe that its from a Pathfinder Adventure Path?
I am seriously not certain that I can use such an item. If a such an item appears, it will most likely be at my DM's discretion.
In any case, thanks for letting me know about this. Its nice to know that there is an item that favors Clerics.
I bet you're right, but even if you're wrong, basing a build that's gonna start at 1st level around something you're not even gonna get till around 6th (8,000 GP for a +1 Guided Bow, after all) is a bad idea.
I can see your point in this, but given my already low amount of skill points, I find it a tight squeeze to get many ranks in Stealth.
Should I make Stealth a focus? Or just get it up to say 5?
I'd do something in between, put a rank nto it whenever you have one to spare.
I got a 23 point buy. :)
I noticed that you place 7 in Int... given the already small number of skill points that a cleric gets... is this wise?
And for RP reasons, I find it hard to justify having a low Int score. So why go so low? Is there something I am not seeing here?On the WIS 19. Like the Int score, is there a reason to get it so high at the start? Given that I see myself as a support cleric and not an offensive spellcaster, do I really need such a high Wis score?
Finally, I got conflicting suggestions on the Dex score. Some are suggesting I take 14 Dex, but others say 16. Is there any difference why?
Sorry for asking so much, but I am kinda new to Pathfinder and I'm still trying to figure out the game system.
Every hardcore optimizer will always tell you to dump Int to 7 on any Cleric or Fighter build (that doesn't use Combat Expertise). Why? Because to max out your prime stats as much as possible (very important to be as optimized as possible) you need to dump something, and Int's the only thing Clerics have to drop (well, non-Archer Clerics can dump Dex, too).
The real question is whether you care more about being perfectly optimized for fighting, or having some skills and not needing to roleplay Int 7. If we're talking zero roleplay Dungeon Crawl, the first is likely better. A more roleplay intensive game? The Int will serve you better, IMO.
As for the Dex, remember that he's suggesting Guided, which would make too high of a Dex a waste.
I am thinking of a STR 12, DEX 16, CON 12, INT, 12, WIS 14+2=16, CHA 12 build. A balanced mix between DEX and WIS, with leveling stats going into WIS. You did mention that a high WIS is preferable for a Support Cleric, but what about a Archer Support Cleric? Can I with 16 DEX, be a Support Cleric and still be a competent Archer, taking the multi-attack range combat feats?
OR
Should I just stick to being a Support Cleric, who can shot an arrow at the monsters each round? Taking other "traditional" feats like the extra channel? (Since I may not go into mounted feats.)
And I DO want to optimize my character, I am just afraid of munchkin-ing the character's build over my character ideal.
BUT! That is why I am asking you all for ideals and suggestion. If I could do this alone, I won't be asking for help. So thank you all!
I'd go with the first. It's not perfect, but it's more than optimized enough for most games, and I suspect you'll have more fun with it. I know I would.
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Thanks for all the info.
I do prefer a more balanced spread of points in a character.
I realize that reading the info on Guided Weapon, it does not say if it could be used on a bow/range weapon, or if it could be applied, how does it affect dex-attack based weapons like Bows.
I posed the question on the rules message board, but if any here could help, it would be much appreciated!
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Thanks for all the info.
I do prefer a more balanced spread of points in a character.
I realize that reading the info on Guided Weapon, it does not say if it could be used on a bow/range weapon, or if it could be applied, how does it affect dex-attack based weapons like Bows.
I posed the question on the rules message board, but if any here could help, it would be much appreciated!
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/guidedWeaponsDoesItWorkForDexAttackWeaponsLikeBowsRangedWeapons
Sorry, the above link is wrong the correct link is:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/guidedWeaponsDoesItWorkForDexAttackWeaponsLikeBowsRangedWeapons|
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If you have any hope of casting spells and them working in combat. You will need a min starting Wis of 17 (Level12 Wis20 Level20 Wis22). Starting with a odd number in your primary ability is a very good idea. You alotment of ability points wold have me as a DM handing you back your character sheet and telling you fix this. And followed with don't ask me how to fix it. Talke with the other players and find out whats wrong. Yes im harsh on character creation but with how the game works if the character is not built for what you want it will fail. It's about balance thats why point buys are hard to do, becous for some reason people feal they should be good at every thing. Or at the very least be avarage at every thing. And be realy good at one thing at the same time. Point buy dose not alow this.
If you want a good set of ability scores with your 23 point buy. Do some number crunching and find out what people hear have told you. Some times you have to have dump stats to be good at what you want. Any ability score of 12 is a wast of points unless it's tied to a class ability.
Cleric (After you get the base. Then you can splurge if your doing a higher point buy. Or if your doing a low point buy find out where you get the points.)
(Caster) Wis min 17 Cha min 12 Con min14
(Ranged) Wis min 14 Cha min 10 Con min 14 Dex min 17
(Melee) Wis min 14 Cha min 10 Con min 14 Str min 17
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If you have any hope of casting spells and them working in combat. You will need a min starting Wis of 17 (Level12 Wis20 Level20 Wis22). Starting with a odd number in your primary ability is a very good idea. You alotment of ability points wold have me as a DM handing you back your character sheet and telling you fix this.
Whereas any of the arrays presented by you would result in me (or the other GMs I play with) handing you back your character sheet with the same message and asking for a more reasonable stat distribution.
Not every game is your game, and judging them as if they were is stupid. It's honestly much more important to be on the same basic level of optimization as the other PCs than it is to reach any particular level beyond the "I have a 16 in my prime stat" baseline, since a disparity in the party is the real problem, not any particular character's level of optimization or lack thereof.
That said, a 17 in Dex or Wis could be useful if you're willing to drop something for it. Though long-term, it's only necessary if you're going to hit Level 20 (a distinct rarity in my experience).
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If you have any hope of casting spells and them working in combat. You will need a min starting Wis of 17 (Level12 Wis20 Level20 Wis22). Starting with a odd number in your primary ability is a very good idea. You alotment of ability points wold have me as a DM handing you back your character sheet and telling you fix this. And followed with don't ask me how to fix it. Talke with the other players and find out whats wrong. Yes im harsh on character creation but with how the game works if the character is not built for what you want it will fail. It's about balance thats why point buys are hard to do, becous for some reason people feal they should be good at every thing. Or at the very least be avarage at every thing. And be realy good at one thing at the same time. Point buy dose not alow this.
If you want a good set of ability scores with your 23 point buy. Do some number crunching and find out what people hear have told you. Some times you have to have dump stats to be good at what you want. Any ability score of 12 is a wast of points unless it's tied to a class ability.
I place 12 in most "dump" skills due to flavor reason.
For example, I don't see my character as dumb, but rather smart with knowledge of nature, healing, religion, judging others' motives and a good perception. He even has a sarcastic tongue! Therefore the 12 in Intel.I want my stats to reflect my character's nature.
With that said, I don't want to find myself in a situation where I'm face-palming myself for making a mistake in the starting point buy.
Cleric (After you get the base. Then you can splurge if your doing a higher point buy. Or if your doing a low point buy find out where you get the points.)
(Caster) Wis min 17 Cha min 12 Con min14
(Ranged) Wis min 14 Cha min 10 Con min 14 Dex min 17
(Melee) Wis min 14 Cha min 10 Con min 14 Str min 17
I can see where you are going with a starting Wis of 17. But I am not sure WHERE to take that extra 2 points. Cha, Int and Str are out of the question. My Con is already at 12, much lower then I REALLY want.
My original ideal (as in totally just with the character in-mind) was THIS array:
Str 12, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14(+2)= 17, Cha 12
Its similar to the one I originally posted, but with the Dex reduced further to 14.
The Reason, is that I envision my character as a Longbow using cleric of Erastil, but who is deeper into spellcasting. Even so he has 12 str and 14 con due to having growing up outdoors much of his life. 14 dex is to allow him to use a long bow, but not be depend on it.
The current array:
STR 12, DEX 16, CON 12, INT, 12, WIS 14+2=16, CHA 12
Was made to make him a more focus on archery character. I did not KNOW that range feats NEED that much dex, for example 17 for mutlishot(?).
In any case, thanks for pointing out the many things I missed. (like WHY an odd number is good for you main pump stat. I seriously thought 16 is ok...
Whereas any of the arrays presented by you would result in me (or the other GMs I play with) handing you back your character sheet with the same message and asking for a more reasonable stat distribution.
Not every game is your game, and judging them as if they were is stupid. It's honestly much more important to be on the same basic level of optimization as the other PCs than it is to reach any particular level beyond the "I have a 16 in my prime stat" baseline, since a disparity in the party is the real problem, not any particular character's level of optimization or lack thereof.
That said, a 17 in Dex or Wis could be useful if you're willing to drop something for it. Though long-term, it's only necessary if you're going to hit Level 20 (a distinct rarity in my experience).
I will still have to see what is my party setup, we have yet to gather yet.
I will post my final build when I get to talk with my DM.
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Then you must severely be lacking in the empathy stat. Children when interacting with their peers, tend to pick on the weak, deride the clumsy, and ridicule or shun the sickly. Your physical nature can have a very defining effect on your personality.
Precisely how does one roleplay a low Strength? Beyond not doing the heavy lifting and worrying about encumberance and such? I've never noticed a substantial difference between people's personalities based on physical strength or speed in the real world, why should there be one in the game?
Actual, I think its more how a character with low Str will RESPOND/REACT to others with greater Str then it. (Assuming that they are the same race.)
For example, a beautiful lady walks into a bar/tarven. A brawny/muscular character, player or NPC, with say... Str 18, takes an interest in her. He gives everyone else a look saying "She's mine". Would ANOTHER character of say Str 10 go challenge the Str 18 character?
Would an average person in real life go messing with someone larger or more physically intimidating? (Without knowing anything about the larger guy?)
Another player character or NPC with say GREATER Str or Size, could pick up the challenge and take on the brawny character. The same could be said of a character with great fighting skills or someone who is just plain dumb. But for the average guy, taking on the larger guy would be just plain dumb and painful.
Therefore Role-Playing ta weaker character could just be as simple as avoiding conflict. Or talking instead of fighting one's way out of trouble.
Oh course, the OUTCOME of this scenario could be anything.
A charming character could out charm the brawny guy and win over the lady.
A wizard could blast the the muscle guy to ashes and scare the lady.
A rogue could follow the bigger guy outback and cut his throat, when the bigger guy goes to the loo.
I feel the your character's stats reflect his or her behavior. Therefore they should fit your character and not just be a game mechanic.
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Then you must severely be lacking in the empathy stat. Children when interacting with their peers, tend to pick on the weak, deride the clumsy, and ridicule or shun the sickly. Your physical nature can have a very defining effect on your personality.
On average, this is true to some degree, but in my experiece, attitude has a lot more to do with it than physical strength. Large, timid, people get made fun of and abused as easily as small, timid, ones, and small, agressive people are more than capable of either bullying or standing up to bullies.
Heck, my best friend growing up was a tiny guy, not particularly strong-looking (though strong for his size, making him around average strength-wise), but nobody messed with him because the first guy who did (who was something like 6'6" and 300 lbs in Middle School, though to be fair, alot of that was fat) he flipped out at and beat up with a lunch tray. Everyone left him alone after that.
I'm not a particularly big or strong guy either, but physical intimidation only got tried on me once, too (I fought dirty, and then went to the Principal, since they started it).
Succesful athletes tend to be fairly confident and agressive, but that's not necessarily strong people, and they aren't the only strong people out there, nor the only confident and agressive ones.
I haven't noiced these trends changing in adulthood, either. Hell, the most agressively confident person I ever met was a woman of dubious physical capabilities, she just had such force of personality almost everyone did as she said, and in many cases were quite scared of her.
Physical capabilities have a tendency to instill confidence, but the confidence (or lack thereof) is what tends to determine behavior, not the physical capabilities themselves.
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And to adress Secane: I've met Str 10-12 people who would totally take on the Str 18 guy. They might lose, but they'd do it. They're kinda crazy, but they certainly exist. Now, it's smarter to back down physically and do one of the other options listed, but not everybody always does the smart thing.
Heck, I know one guy (in fairness, a big guy) who insulted and then got to back down an entire table of guys, basically on sheer attitude and insanity. Due to the numbers factor, that was similar odds, and he did it without a second thought.