The mount functions as a druid's animal companion, using the paladin's level as her effective druid level. Bonded mounts have an intelligence of at least 6.
Heavy Horse: A heavy horse gains the advanced simple template. In addition, it also gains a bite attack that inflicts 1d4 damage, and its hoof damage increases to 1d6. As with a light horse, a heavy horse can be specifically trained for combat with the Handle Animal skill.
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If it states it uses animal companion rules, then it would stand to reason that they must use the animal companion templates, not just modify a bestiary entry. The only exception listed is that their INT is 6 to start. Considering the companion horse already has a bite attack, it seems to be of the heavy type from the start. No advanced template adding needed. Companions do not get "free feats" unless they are listed on the companion entry. Just looking at the stats and feats of the 5th level companion horse listed above show something is definitely off. 4 feats, 23 str/con 19 dex
Below are the base companion entries for horse and pony. I don't see the OP's statement about them being significantly worse showing up here. If it regards the fact that they do not have starting feats or skill bonuses, the companion table takes care of that, letting you custom place all the feats and skill point available for that level.
Horse
Starting Statistics: Size Large; Speed 50 ft.; AC +4 natural armor; Attack bite (1d4), 2 hooves* (1d6); Ability Scores Str 16, Dex 13, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent. *This is a secondary natural attack, see Combat for more information on how secondary attacks work.
4th-Level Advancement: Ability Scores Str +2, Con +2; Special Qualities combat trained.
Pony
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 40 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Attack 2 hooves (1d3); Ability Scores Str 13, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 4; Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.
4th-Level Advancement: Ability Scores Str +2, Con +2; Special Qualities combat trained.
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The 5th level paladin mount would be as follows. Note, it is significantly BETTER than the core entry, not worse as the OP stated. RAW, you never apply templates to companions.
Size Large;
Speed 50 ft.;
AC: 16 = 10 + 1 DEX + 6 NA + -1 Size;
BAB: 3
HD: 5
Attack bite (1d4), 2 hooves(secondary) (1d6);
Saves: F=8, R=5, W=2
Ability Scores Str 19, Dex 13, Con 18, Int 6, Wis 12, Cha 6;
Skill Points: 5
Feats: 3
Stat Boost: +1 to any stat
Special Qualities low-light vision, scent, Combat Trained.
well you realize it gets stronger and eventually crushes puny ( and evil) heavy war horses under it's holly hoof.
it is an animal I believe until it gets the celestial template later. it has language understanding for a 6 int creature but still reacts to things as an animal.
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Hooves are not a primary tool of horses. We have two and I can tell you, they are far better at nipping each other than they are at hitting each with a buck(Our little mustang is the boss and she is sometimes a kicker). They certainly don't rear up very often (Never seen ours do it). But then again this is real life compared to a fantasy world. Just trying to guess at the reasoning based on my experience. As for the stats, the advanced template and a generic "power up" really skews the stats.
For the most part, a horse is never a DPS powerhouse. They will not be the same as , say my druid, and his T-Rex companion.
As a basic rule of thumb, just see to what Name Violation said above: during character creation, you should only need the core rulebook.
Does this mean that the hooves remain secondary weapons on animal companion horses that advance?
That's exactly what it means. In this manner a horse animal companion does not differ from a normal heavy horse found in the Bestiary. That said, when the paladin reaches level 9 his horse gains Multiattack as a free feat, which helps mitigate the hooves' attack penalty.
Actually this means that ordinary heavy horses have yet another edge over the animal companion, as the Docile special ability makes their hooves primary attacks if they are combat trained.
You're misunderstanding what the docile ability does. It doesn't make a horses' hooves primary attacks. It actually does the opposite, and makes them secondary attacks.
Docile (Ex) Unless specifically trained for combat (see the Handle Animal skill, a horse's hooves are treated as secondary attacks.
Normally, when a creature only has a single attack type, that attack is treated as a primary attack, no matter what form it takes. Under these general rules, a normal horse's hooves would be considered primary. The docile ability causes them to be treated as secondary attacks, unless that horse is combat trained.
Now, docile has no impact if a horse has additional forms of attack; per the general rules, once the horse obtains a primary attack, such as a bite, its hooves revert to their status as secondary attacks. Once that occurs, they are never treated as primary again.
So, to summarize, a combat trained heavy horse has three attacks:
You appear to be talking about the advantages of using this horse as your mount.
You may note on the side that this is stamped as a variant monster, with stats filled in by the fans. So the existence of these stats in the first place requires the consent of your DM.
Other than that, there is nothing that stops you from riding this horse into combat instead of your Paladin mount. As far as strict stats go, yes, this horse has higher numbers in the strength, dexterity and constitution departments. Those are nice to have.
Why is the template for Animal Companions and Paladin mounts so crappy? HIT DICE. Hit dice give it a BAB worth something, better saves, and some actual hit points, so that it doesn't go down like a ton of bricks the moment somebody thinks to attack the horse. There is no core way to advance the hit dice of your store-bought animal. This is not an advantage to be overlooked.
Don't knock it. Those stats do look a weak in comparison to the "base" animal. (Which in this case is a creation based on what somebody thought the stats should be.) They can afford to be that way, however, because the Animal Companion advancement table gives a lot of power.
Not in Pathfinder. This was true in 3.5e, but was changed in Pathfinder where creatures can have multiple primary attacks.
-James
Actually, everything I've said is based on Pathfinder, not 3.5.
Hooves are defined as a secondary attack form. However, if they are the only natural attack form a creature possesses, they are treated as a primary according the general rules. This would be the case with a basic horse, if not for the docile ability.
Natural Attacks Most creatures possess one or more natural attacks (attacks made without a weapon). These attacks fall into one of two categories, primary and secondary attacks. Primary attacks are made using the creature's full base attack bonus and add the creature's full Strength bonus on damage rolls. Secondary attacks are made using the creature's base attack bonus –5 and add only 1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature's full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 the creature's Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one. If a creature has only one type of attack, but has multiple attacks per round, that attack is treated as a primary attack, regardless of its type. Table: Natural Attacks by Size lists some of the most common types of natural attacks and their classifications.
However, a heavy horse has a second attack form, a primary bite. This causes the hooves to be treated as secondary attacks once again, as they are defined by the system.
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Perhaps the confusion comes in because by the time the paladin can summon a mount, the animal companion stats are heavy horse equivalent. If you were a druid, you would start out with just a "horse" animal companion, but by the time the druid reaches 5th level that same animal companion could be considered a "heavy horse" since its stats have been bumped (+3 str, +1 Dex, +2 Con, 3 feats, 2 bonus tricks, evasion, +3 BAB, 5 HD, etc.) and it is combat-trained at 4th level.
Therefore, by the time the paladin is able to summon the mount it is a combat-trained heavy horse, even though it just follows the Core book RAW for the 5th level animal companion/mount.
In addition, according to the devs post below, when a horse is combat-trained, the hooves become primary attacks. So a 5th level horse animal companion would have three primary attacks at the same base attack - 2 hooves, 1 bite. Pathfinder is different in that creatures have multiple primary attacks. In additon, a horse animal companion/mount starts with hoof damage of d6 so nothing would change.
Also, docile has nothing to do with the animal companions/mounts for a druid, paladin, or cavalier. If you notice, the only special abilites the animal companion/mount horse has is low-light vision and scent. Not docile, which is only listed under special abilities in the bestiary, and therefore not applicable.
Sorry if my link is fudged up, I'm new at posting...
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/rules/warTrainedHorsesInBestiary&page=1#7
James Jacobs (Creative Director), Wed, Nov 25, 2009, 02:30 PM Flag | List | FAQ | Reply
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War trained is actually detailed in the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook under the description of "Handle Animal," on page 98. Of course, there it's called "Combat Training." It's one of the "general purpose" trainings you can give an animal. As detailed on page 177 of the Bestiary, horses in particular gain a special benefit once they're combat trained—their hooves are from that point treated as primary weapons, not secondary ones.
Where do you get that the bite is its primary attack form?
According to the general rules, a bite is always a primary attack. Similarly, if a creature has more than one type of natural attack, hooves are always secondary attacks.
Moreover, the docile rules seem to imply that hooves would be the primary attack form, but because horses are not naturally combatants, they are treated as secondary.
This is exactly correct. However, as I pointed out, the only reason a basic horse's hooves are treated as primary attacks is because they lack any other form of natural attack.
Thus, an un-combat-trained heavy horse would have 2 hoof attacks (primary, but treated as secondary due to Docile) and 1 bite attack (secondary).
When the heavy horse is trained for battle, Docile stops its hooves from being treated as secondary attacks.
Nope. A heavy horse possesses two types of natural attacks, a bite and its hooves. As such, and as defined by the general rules, the bite is a primary attack and the hooves are secondary. The rules are very clear about this, and described it in the section of the Bestiary that describes natural attacks and its accompanying table. The quote I provided in my previous post was from that section, and the link I provided with it leads to the topic in the PRD.
In addition, according to the devs post below, when a horse is combat-trained, the hooves become primary attacks. So a 5th level horse animal companion would have three primary attacks at the same base attack - 2 hooves, 1 bite. Pathfinder is different in that creatures have multiple primary attacks. In additon, a horse animal companion/mount starts with hoof damage of d6 so nothing would change.
That post is in reference to a regular horse, that only possesses a single natural attack type. A heavy horse has two natural attack types, and as such its hooves are secondary weapons.
Pathfinder does allow for multiple primary attacks; each natural attack type is given a primary or secondary designation. Bite is designated as a primary attack, and it is always a primary attack. Hooves, however, are defined as a secondary attack. The only time they are treated as a primary attack is if a creature possesses hooves, but no other form of natural attack. As such, if a horse has both a bite attack and hooves, the bite is a primary attack, and the hooves are secondary.
According to the general rules, a bite is always a primary attack. Similarly, if a creature has more than one type of natural attack, hooves are always secondary attacks.Where're those rules?
I don't see anything that says a bite is always a primary attack.
It states that bites are primary attacks, whereas attacks such as wings or hooves are secondary. Unless the monster's abilities specifically say otherwise, these rules hold up.
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Pathfinder does allow for multiple primary attacks; each natural attack type is given a primary or secondary designation. Bite is designated as a primary attack, and it is always a primary attack. Hooves, however, are defined as a secondary attack. The only time they are treated as a primary attack is if a creature possesses hooves, but no other form of natural attack. As such, if a horse has both a bite attack and hooves, the bite is a primary attack, and the hooves are secondary.
Gotta disagree.
1. A horse doesn't even have a bite attack, so hooves would be primary, but docile makes its hooves secondary.
2. A heavy horse has two attacks, bite primary, hooves secondary, however, it specifically says, "Unless specifically trained for combat (see the Handle Animal skill), a horse's hooves are treated as secondary attacks." Therefore if it is trained for combat, the hooves are treated as primary. What else would they be? Tertiary?
Essentially, docile goes away at that point (cause a warhorse sure as hell ain't docile) and the heavy horse has three primary attacks. Which is what the developer said.
If the hooves were always supposed to be secondary, there wouldn't be the business of "Unless specifically trained for combat..." And because a horse animal companion/mount gets combat-trained at 4th level, it should have three primary attacks (meaning 1 bites, 2 hooves).
1. A horse doesn't even have a bite attack, so hooves would be primary, but docile makes its hooves secondary.
That's exactly what I've been saying.
2. A heavy horse has two attacks, bite primary, hooves secondary, however, it specifically says, "Unless specifically trained for combat (see the Handle Animal skill), a horse's hooves are treated as secondary attacks." Therefore if it is trained for combat, the hooves are treated as primary. What else would they be? Tertiary?
Essentially, docile goes away at that point and the heavy horse has three primary attacks. Which is what the developer said.
No, it's not. The docile ability does not grant hooves status as primary attacks. You quoted the ability: is the term primary in there at all?
This is an instance where an ability, vital to a lesser version of a creature, has no role once that creature is advanced. The ability states that a horse's hooves are treated as secondary attacks, unless that horse is combat trained. Therefore, if a horse does possess that training, the ability restores the hooves' normal attack status. For a basic horse, this means that the hooves return to their modified status as primary attacks. However, for a heavy horse, this means the hooves return to their status as secondary attacks.
An ability can only do specifically what it states. Docile turns hoof attacks into secondary natural attacks. Nothing in the ability states that it can modify them and cause them to be primary attacks.
If the hooves were always supposed to be secondary, there wouldn't be the business of "Unless specifically trained for combat..."
As I've said, an exception exists. If a creature only possesses a single natural attack type, it is treated as a primary attack.
And because a horse animal companion/mount gets combat-trained at 4th level, it should have three primary attacks (meaning 1 bites, 2 hooves).
No, it doesn't. Read the game's rules, and stop trying to give an ability a function it doesn't have; to function in the manner you state, docile would need to state something along the lines of 'the horse's hooves are to be treated as primary attacks if the horse is combat trained'.
It doesn't say this. The word primary isn't even mentioned as part of the ability. It turns the hooves into a secondary attack, regardless of what they are supposed to be, unless the horse is combat trained. If the horse is combat trained, its hooves revert to what they are supposed to be according to the general rules. For a heavy horse, that is secondary. Essentially, the ability is nullified if the horse is combat trained, and has no effect whatsoever.
You've got it backwards.
A horse's hooves are primary natural attacks (and they remain so even when another primary attack, bite, is added).
That's incorrect; where in the rules does it say that?
I've shown exactly where it states a normal horse's hooves are treated as primary attacks. I've also noted why they would become secondary attacks once the creature has a bite attack. Both cases are supported by the general rules; I've not seen anything in them indicating this would be incorrect, nor has anyone come forward with such a quote.
No, it's not. The docile ability does not grant hooves status as primary attacks. You quoted the ability: is the term primary in there at all?You've got it backwards.
A horse's hooves are primary natural attacks (and they remain so even when another primary attack, bite, is added).
However, thanks to Docile, they are treated as secondary attacks (so long as the horse is not combat-trained).
As soon as the horse is combat-trained, the limitation of Docile no longer applies, and the hooves are no longer treated as secondary attacks, and therefore they return to being fully primary attacks.
Ergo, heavy warhorses have three primary natural attacks - a bite and two hooves.
Not according to that chart I posted above.
An ordinary horse's hooves would be primary attacks, since they are its only natural weapons. However, because of Docile, they are treated as secondary attacks unless the horse is wartrained. In which case, the ordinary rule applies, and the hooves become primary attacks again.
A heavy horse still has the Docile ability, but only because it is simply an ordinary horse with a template thrown on. Because it gains a primary bite attack, the rule that made the hooves primary attacks no longer applies.
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The plain fact is that under horse companion, the hooves are secondary. It doesn't matter what you are pulling from the bestiary, correct or incorrect. Companions gain ONLY what is listed on the companion entry. It may seem bad for attacks, but in all honesty, your horse is not going to be a major factor in the dishing out of damage in combat(Primary or Secondary), your weapons are!
Pathfinder does allow for multiple primary attacks; each natural attack type is given a primary or secondary designation. Bite is designated as a primary attack, and it is always a primary attack. Hooves, however, are defined as a secondary attack. The only time they are treated as a primary attack is if a creature possesses hooves, but no other form of natural attack. As such, if a horse has both a bite attack and hooves, the bite is a primary attack, and the hooves are secondary.Gotta disagree.
1. A horse doesn't even have a bite attack, so hooves would be primary, but docile makes its hooves secondary.
2. A heavy horse has two attacks, bite primary, hooves secondary, however, it specifically says, "Unless specifically trained for combat (see the Handle Animal skill), a horse's hooves are treated as secondary attacks." Therefore if it is trained for combat, the hooves are treated as primary. What else would they be? Tertiary?
Essentially, docile goes away at that point (cause a warhorse sure as hell ain't docile) and the heavy horse has three primary attacks. Which is what the developer said.If the hooves were always supposed to be secondary, there wouldn't be the business of "Unless specifically trained for combat..." And because a horse animal companion/mount gets combat-trained at 4th level, it should have three primary attacks (meaning 1 bites, 2 hooves).
Oh, thank you Bad Sintax! - I was afraid I would have to put all that together.
Heaven's Agent, the evidence has been presented, you just refuse to see it.
You are correct that the general rule is that hooves are secondary attacks, however, horses has a specific rule in that combat training makes their hooves primary attacks. Specific trumps general.
As for the Paladin using a Heavy horse, we do that in our local campaign and it is a fearsome warrior in it's own right.
It is tough as heck too, it matches the Eidolon easily in power but not in flexibility.
It makes the pre-level 7 wolf hide in terror. It makes the post-level 7 wolf watch his step around it.
Going with Heavy vs. ordinary is a serious boost but it is not near imba or anything like that. YMMV.
Not according to that chart I posted above.
An ordinary horse's hooves would be primary attacks, since they are its only natural weapons. However, because of Docile, they are treated as secondary attacks unless the horse is wartrained. In which case, the ordinary rule applies, and the hooves become primary attacks again.
A heavy horse still has the Docile ability, but only because it is simply an ordinary horse with a template thrown on. Because it gains a primary bite attack, the rule that made the hooves primary attacks no longer applies.
Hehe, that's actually exactly what I've been saying this entire time; you're finding that my posts support your opinion because we agree.
Now, now, let's all remain civil here.
They are primary natural weapons which are treated as secondary because of the Docile ability. If said normal horse is trained for combat, they are no longer treated as secondary, and are, instead, normal primary weapons.
You are forgetting the important fact that the only reason they would even be considered primary natural weapons is that they are its only weapons. Docile is a specific exception to this rule, and is only relevant because the hooves are primary attacks by technicality.
The second the horse gains that primary bite attack from becoming a heavy horse, the hooves are no longer its only attacks, and are therefore reverted to secondary attacks. Docile becomes redundant here because the horse's hooves are now already secondary attacks, regardless of whether the horse is combat-trained.
Hehe, that's actually exactly what I've been saying this entire time; you're finding that my posts support your opinion because we agree.
Heh, so it seems.
Start from a normal horse ...
You can't simply start from a normal horse, and then build a heavy horse. They are two separate creatures, and need to be treated as such in this instance.
Now, the process you state for determining a normal horse's attacks looks correct to me. What you fail to recognize is that you have to start the process over again when defining the attacks of a heavy horse:
Now, as a result of having template added to an existing creature, a heavy horse possesses the docile ability:
This includes any template which adds additional natural attack forms (primary or secondary).
I would disagree with this reasoning, but that's a discussion for another time. In this instance a template isn't adding a second natural attack form. In fact a second attack form isn't being added at all.
Note that the bite attack is not part of the template used to advance the statistics of a horse to that of a heavy horse. It's simply an attack that a heavy horse has, as a result of being a heavy horse.
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No, it's not. The docile ability does not grant hooves status as primary attacks. You quoted the ability: is the term primary in there at all?
This is an instance where an ability, vital to a lesser version of a creature, has no role once that creature is advanced. The ability states that a horse's hooves are treated as secondary attacks, unless that horse is combat trained. Therefore, if a horse does possess that training, the ability restores the hooves' normal attack status. For a basic horse, this means that the hooves return to their modified status as primary attacks. However, for a heavy horse, this means the hooves return to their status as secondary attacks.
Hmmm…you’ve given me some food for thought, except for these two things:
A heavy horse, with hooves as secondary attacks anyway, "return to their status as secondary attacks" once combat-trained? They return to what they already are? I acknowledge that nothing in docile specifically says primary, but your interpretation futzes with the language as well.
Also, in your view, a horse would gain an effective +5 to 2 attacks (2 +5’s for its 2 hoof attacks becoming primary, in addition to being able to use its full strength bonus for damage instead of half) if it were combat trained, but a heavy horse would gain absolutely nothing for being combat trained. In your interpretation, a combat-trained heavy horse is statistically no different from a non-trained heavy horse, which is completely different from what happens when a regular horse is combat trained. How do you reconcile that?
To me, it comes down to what was the dev referring to on his post…do the horse’s hooves become primary because it is combat-trained? Or do the horse’s hooves become primary because it is no longer docile and therefore they are its only natural attack?
If it is the former, I believe I am right, and if it is the latter, I believe you are right. Because the dev wrote “horses in particular gain a special benefit once they're combat trained—their hooves are from that point treated as primary weapons, not secondary ones.” (emphasis mine) it leads me to the former.
At the very least, this discussion provided me with a nice distraction during work!
A heavy horse, with hooves as secondary attacks anyway, "return to their status as secondary attacks" once combat-trained? They return to what they already are? I acknowledge that nothing in docile specifically says primary, but your interpretation futzes with the language as well.
Perhaps a better way to think of it is by asking yourself, what triggers docile's effect? The ability functions as written provided a horse lacks combat training; the lack of combat training is the trigger that causes this conditional ability to function. Therefore, if a horse does possess such training, the ability simply has no effect at all. It doesn't function.
Also, in your view, a horse would gain an effective +5 to 2 attacks (2 +5’s for its 2 hoof attacks becoming primary, in addition to being able to use its full strength bonus for damage instead of half) if it were combat trained, but a heavy horse would gain absolutely nothing for being combat trained. In your interpretation, a combat-trained heavy horse is statistically no different from a non-trained heavy horse, which is completely different from what happens when a regular horse is combat trained. How do you reconcile that?
Combat training has effect and benefits separate from the docile ability. these benefits still apply to a trained heavy horse, even given that docile is not a consideration in this instance.
To me, it comes down to what was the dev referring to on his post…do the horse’s hooves become primary because it is combat-trained? Or do the horse’s hooves become primary because it is no longer docile and therefore they are its only natural attack?
In that case, it's easy to reconcile this. Just read what combat training does: it has no effect on whether an attack is primary or secondary in nature.
Though once again, it's important to recognize that the basic horse's hooves don't become primary attacks because of the docile ability. They would be primary attacks without it, simply because they are the horse's only type of natural attack. Docile actually does the opposite of what you claim; the ability causes the horse's hooves to be treated as secondary attacks.
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Combat training has effect and benefits separate from the docile ability. these benefits still apply to a trained heavy horse, even given that docile is not a consideration in this instance.
If you notice, what I said was that according to you a heavy horse that is combat trained is statistically the same as a non-combat horse. Meaning its stats are the same. Those "effects and benefits" that you are referring to must be the ride check? In which case that would be "benefit." And it still doesn't jive with the stat bonuses the regular horse gets once combat trained.
Docile actually does the opposite of what you claim; the ability causes the horse's hooves to be treated as secondary attacks.
I'm not sure where you are getting that...I've never said, nor has anyone else, I think, said that docile causes a horse's hooves to be primary. So there is no need to bring it up again.
In that case, it's easy to reconcile this. Just read what combat training does: it has no effect on whether an attack is primary or secondary in nature.
Strictly speaking, nowhere does it say that combat trained specifically removes and/or negates docile, either. Therefore, we can only use the wording in the language of docile itself. So as applied in a heavy horse (which has a primary attack bite and secondary attack hooves) and the wording of docile (it gets the bad with the good with the template) which says "Unless trained for combat they are secondary attacks" we get that the secondary hooves are treated as primary if trained for combat.
You are trying to use one animal (the horse) to determine the abilities of a different animal (the heavy horse). Each one has to be taken individually. And according to the wording on the heavy horse...they are primary if combat trained. If that wasn't the case, a heavy horse would say "a heavy horse gains the advanced simple template, and removes the docile special ability" since a non-combat trained horse has its hooves as its secondary attacks already.
If you notice, what I said was that according to you a heavy horse that is combat trained is statistically the same as a non-combat horse.
And didn't try to claim otherwise.
Meaning its stats are the same. Those "effects and benefits" that you are referring to must be the ride check? In which case that would be "benefit."
Well, there are others:
Combat Training (DC 20): An animal trained to bear a rider into combat knows the tricks attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel. Training an animal for combat riding takes 6 weeks. You may also “upgrade” an animal trained for riding to one trained for combat by spending 3 weeks and making a successful DC 20 Handle Animal check. The new general purpose and tricks completely replace the animal's previous purpose and any tricks it once knew. Many horses and riding dogs are trained in this way.
Strictly speaking, nowhere does it say that combat trained specifically removes and/or negates docile, either.
No, docile itself does.
Therefore, we can only use the wording in the language of docile itself. So as applied in a heavy horse (which has a primary attack bite and secondary attack hooves) and the wording of docile (it gets the bad with the good with the template) which says "Unless trained for combat they are secondary attacks" we get that the secondary hooves are treated as primary if trained for combat.
You're claiming an ability works a specific way simply because it lacks text saying it doesn't? That makes no sense. Docile causes a horse's hooves to function as secondary weapons in specific circumstances. It has no relevance on what occurs when those circumstances aren't present.
You are trying to use one animal (the horse) to determine the abilities of a different animal (the heavy horse). Each one has to be taken individually. And according to the wording on the heavy horse...they are primary if combat trained.
No, that's an extrapolation. And in this instance, one that's unfounded in the rules of the game.
Extrapolations are not rules. Argue it all you want, but ultimately you'd be wrong.
If that wasn't the case, a heavy horse would say "a heavy horse gains the advanced simple template, and removes the docile...
Why? The docile ability has no effect on a heavy horse, combat trained or no.
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It's also not a heavy horse; ergo, its applicability is, at best, suspect.
The plain fact is that under horse companion, the hooves are secondary.
The problem is, the "companion" setup is different than the base creatures. You don't simple take a base creature, keep all its same bestiary stats, slap a template on it, the add even more on top of that from the druid table. This is 100% clear in intent to use the Horse and Pony from the base companions. The Horse companion even has a bite attack, which is what the Heavy adds. You do not ever need to refer to the bestiary for a core class using core rules. Everything is laid out in the classes, even the monster feats they have available. You are able to create a complete Paladin + Bonded Mount without using the Bestiary. The ONLY time you need the bestiary is when you have a companion that existed outside the core list (like dinosaurs).
Companion stats are balanced for play, which is why they differ from the base creature. Using normal Horse stats, slapping the Advanced template on them, then slapping the druid companion table on them shifts them WAY above where they should be. Some companions are weaker in combat than others. This balances it all out when combined with the PC.
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You're claiming an ability works a specific way simply because it lacks text saying it doesn't?
No, I'm saying the ability works because of what is written.
No, that's an extrapolation. And in this instance, one that's unfounded in the rules of the game.
Extrapolations are not rules. Argue it all you want, but ultimately you'd be wrong.
Again, I'm not extrapolating anything...I'm going with the rules as written for a horse with the advanced simple template attached to it, including the rules and wording for docile. You are extrapolating that because it works this way for a horse, it must work this way for a heavy horse.
And I wouldn't say that learning six different tricks would be added benefits and effects since a non-combat horse and a non-combat heavy horse can already learn six tricks anyway.
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The plain fact is that under horse companion, the hooves are secondary. It doesn't matter what you are pulling from the bestiary, correct or incorrect. Companions gain ONLY what is listed on the companion entry. It may seem bad for attacks, but in all honesty, your horse is not going to be a major factor in the dishing out of damage in combat(Primary or Secondary), your weapons are!
+1 no matter what you find anywhere else this rule here is the only one that matters.
Animal companions have their own set of rules on what they can do and it doesn't matter what the base creatures entry says.|
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The problem is, the "companion" setup is different than the base creatures. You don't simple take a base creature, keep all its same bestiary stats, slap a template on it, the add even more on top of that from the druid table. This is 100% clear in intent to use the Horse and Pony from the base companions. The Horse companion even has a bite attack, which is what the Heavy adds. You do not ever need to refer to the bestiary for a core class using core rules. Everything is laid out in the classes, even the monster feats they have available. You are able to create a complete Paladin + Bonded Mount without using the Bestiary. The ONLY time you need the bestiary is when you have a companion that existed outside the core list (like dinosaurs).
Companion stats are balanced for play, which is why they differ from the base creature. Using normal Horse stats, slapping the Advanced template on them, then slapping the druid companion table on them shifts them WAY above where they should be
I 100% agree: a paladin's mount is a druid's horse animal companion...See my post earlier way above. The question for me comes once that animal companion hits 4th level and gains combat-trained, what all does that give it?