A Plea to Designers for Polymorphing Sorcerers


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

The Short:
At 9th level I've hit a wall, pretty literally and that is called DR.

The long:

Intrigued by the Abyssal Sorcerer Bloodline (Power attack is a bonus feat!?) and wanting to really get the Polymorph Subschool down rules wise I decided to make a character for PFS that would actually cast the Polymorph spells. Because a few of us looked at the changes to Polymorph and thought, why would a wizard or a sorcerer ever cast these spells.

Sort of a creature touched by chaos who doesn't know his Identity ever.

So I built Mort, a half orc Abyssal sorcerer and waited it out till 6th level to actually get beast shape. I was surprised that by 4th I was starting to have fun, enlarged and extended carried it to the next mark. Fun kicked into high gear at 6th when I could actually turn into a dinosaur with Beast Shape I.

Then it seemed that was the peak, sure grabbing as a Dire Tiger was fun but no Rake and squeezing added more complications to balance that fun factor. Suddenly I ran into DR as early as 7th level.

This disadvantage can't seem to be compensated with spells, magic items nor feats (even power attack barely get's through the DR of most demons and devils I'm coming up against but if I'm lucky I'll only land one attack per round), without some considerable cost, (Amulet of Mighty Fists is cost prohibitive, Versatile Weapon must be cast when you are in Beast Form making it a high level spell). It's a bit frustrating when the guy playing the monk puts on his cold iron brass knuckles and laughs at my story.

There's a pile of complications (pile of suck as a friend said) around such a build that it looses the "fun factor" of playing such a character.

The character build is so focused on making Polymorph effective that contributions to role-playing and investigation outside of combat are limited (I have a skill it's intimidate)

Here are my best solutions:
Versatile Weapon does work but casting it in beast form causes it to take up a 5th level slot (silent and still are both required) and it can be cast on a claw or a bite, asking an ally to use a wand is the best and shortest solution I can think of but at best I get a bite or claw out of the deal. Eldritch Claws will happen once I have the BAB of 6 and that would take care of half of it but at that point it would be this And that.

I'm playing it out and I may actually agree that nothing can be done that doesn't offer a complete power gamer a way to come up with a more broken concept, except maybe something like "Shifters Gloves"

I like polymorph, I wish it were a viable spell choice for a gamey player but all in all even my love may see me take a break from it for a while.

Also unfortunately, PFS retirement is exactly at the time a Sorcerer's ability Polymorph Diverges from the Druids ability to Wild Shape.

Thanks for Reading

I can post the Mort Build if anyone is interested. It isn't entirely ineffective, it's just for what it's built to do, hasn't gotten to the I can't wait part.

-Joshua

Dark Archive

Get an amulet of mighty fists. Considering a deinonychus has four natural attacks that benefit from its enhancement bonus, 5k aren't that much.
Monks needed brass knuckles because they only had one attack that benefited from AMFs.


What you really need is the Eldritch Claws feat, but you are a bit short on the Base Attack Bonus, and would need to pick up a few levels of a combat class to get them - Not a bad scenario,anyway, if you are planning to stay in the "up close and personal" space of the battlefield. I considered playing a polymorph caster in pathfinder a few months ago, but realized that with a poor BAB and d6 hit dice, the front line was NO PLACE for an arcane caster, no matter how good their physical ability scores.

Actually, the Barbarian would fit perfectly with your PC -- he'd gain the BAB and hit dice you need to get personal, the rage powers would stack well with the polymorphed form (lesser infernal totem looks like it was made for you), and you'd gain increased move to boot. Once you get three levels of barbarian, you can take eldritch claws (you have the natural attacks thanks to the polymorphing all the time, then the BAB, and hopefully you aren't entering combat regularly without at least a 15 STR!) Your casting suffers, but there's a trade-off when preparing an arcane caster for melee.


I suggest "Magic Missile."


I think that it's possible what you're trying to do simply isn't intended to work the way you're trying to make it. You're trying to take a caster and turn it into a viable melee combatant. That's the department of clerics and druids.

I suspect the idea is that wizards and sorcerers who use the shape spells, you're intended to use them as utility spells. Flight is handy, for scouting. Animal forms give you abilities such as speed and the appearance of being an animal that a clever wizard could use to infiltrate an enemy encampment so he can then learn what they're up to. It's kind of like invisibility plus dimension door.

That all being said, there's always the option of picking up potions of magic fang.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I posted in haste:
Amulet of Mighty Fists - Holy = 20,000 gp and is reachable around 10th level. Manages to bypass most bad guy DR and when it doesn't it pulls off 2d6 extra damage to help get through.

Will take me to Form of the Dragon and maybe Eldritch Claws

Thanks for your comments.

-Joshua


Do you have any damage spells, save or suck, buffing besides the polymorphs?


You could get Greater Magic Fang + Permanency cast on you for the flat +1 to all natural weapons. I suppose it'd depend on GM interpretation as to whether or not numerical enhancement from the spell stacks with equivalent powers like Holy from the amulet, but at that point you'd have a +3 total, which would count as enough to neutralize certain miscellaneous DRs.

Shadow Lodge

I'm not sure there is an easy fix for this, for a lot of reasons sorcerers aren't going to be great at shapeshifting. You've mentioned the spellcasting issue, but it's going to get harder and harder for your to overcome the fact that your Base Attack Bonus gets worse every second level and that's before you have to deal with DR. I hate to say it but this is likely only getting worse.

Not sure I have any good suggestions beyond thinking about possibly transitioning to another role in the party.

Better Polymorphers:

  • Druid
  • Alchemist

    Spells that might help:

  • Heroism
  • Good Hope (maybe use a wand and UMD?)
  • Align weapon (from a friendly cleric)

    Possible Feats:
    Weapon Focus (Claws)
    Eldritch Claws (need more time)

    Prestige possibilities:
    Eldritch Knight


  • Casters can be turned into fine melee combatants, with a little bit of focus. I'm not familiar with the polymorph route, but I applaud your attempt to trying out the viability of this line of spells.

    A few things that help you out:

    Extended Heroism
    Improved Invisibility (to help with the to-hit)
    A whole slew of defensive spells (if that's your fancy. Mirror Image, blur, displacement, etc.)
    Arcane Strike feat (kinda obvious so maybe you have this already)

    As others have pointed out, Eldritch Claws is a option for overcoming silver and magic DR. Though personally I think a feat is more expensive than the price tag on Amulet of Mighty Fists. Matter of taste though.


    Yea seems like eldrich claws and going dragon sorc/ dragon disciple would have been a more DR overcoming variant (you still get power attack as a bonus feat), along with quicken the dragon form spells and physical stat boosts and 3/4 BAB and d12 HP's. you would count as 9th level for bloodline powers be an 8th level caster gain additional nat. armor boosts on top of bloodline powers and a +4 to STR with 4 levels of DD. But perhaps you were shooting for going straight sorc. with your build? If so yea mighty fists might be your best consistent bet with magic fang potions, arcane strike and the like being good supplements

    Sovereign Court

    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber

    So played a game with Holy Amulet of Mighty Fists, solved a number of issues.

    Below is the Build and it seems that it isn't impossible to be melee.

    For those who address the blast spells issues, note the characters charisma started at 14 and goes up when I advance an ability score. DC's against saves aren't great.

    Half Orc Abyssal Sorcerer
    Base Stats
    Str 18 - 10 (+2 for level 9 abyssal sorcerer)
    Dex 12 - 2
    Con 16 - 5
    Int 8 - -2
    Wis 10 - 0
    Cha 16 - 5 (+2 for level gain)
    Equip Cloak of Resist +1, Ring of Protection + 1, Rose Quartz Ioun Stone in Wayfinder, 3 lesser Extend, 1 Extend, Holy Amulet of Mighty fists, 1500 gp in Diamond Dust

    AC 13 17 w/ Mage Armor - 21 w/ Shield

    BAB +5 CMB +13 CMD 25 (B+4,Str+6,Dex+1,Def+1,RQ+2,+10)

    Enhanced Stats Belt of Strength + 4
    Str 22, Dex 12, Con, 16, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 16

    +1 Great Axe +11 attack / 1d12 + 10 damage
    or 2 Claws (+1) +11 attack/ 1d6 + 7 damage (6 rounds per day)

    Feats
    Eschew Materials (B)
    Weapon Focus Great Axe
    Weapon Focus Claw
    Power Attack (B)
    Silent Spell
    Toughness
    Step Up

    The "full load"
    Beginning of the day around 8 am or so
    I cast 10 hour duration
    1st Mage Armor
    2nd False Life, Defending Bone

    Approaching encounter area (any thought that an encounter will happen)

    1st Shield
    2nd Mirror Image, See Invis
    3rd Fly, Heroism
    4th Stone Skin
    5th Beast Shape III Dire Tiger, Aurumvorax, or Dienichus

    Each Extended to last 20 minutes

    1 7 1|1/1/1
    2 7 2|2/2/1 -> See Invis on last
    3 7 0|2/2/2
    4 5 0|2/1/1
    5 3 0|1

    4 rods of Extend 3 minor one regular
    12 charges of extend (3 off regular the rest off minor) / the last transform not extended/ Stoneskin lasts 10 mins per level 90 mins may also not be extended

    Spell Effects
    +8 to AC, Immune to Magic Missiles All AC modifiers apply to touch of incorporal because they are force effects
    DR 5/Bludgeoning (45 hitpoints) DR 10/Adamantine (90 hit points)
    1d10 + 9 Temporary Hit Points
    1d4 + 3 images created
    See Invis, Fly 60ft, +2 Morale Bonus on Attacks Saves and Skills

    Favored Forms
    3 BS I -
    Deinonychus (Loaded)
    Speed 60 ft. Senses low-light vision
    Str 24, Dex 12, Con, 16, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 16
    CMB +14 CMD 26 (B+5,Str+8,Dex+1,Def+1,RQ+2,+10)
    (Counting Heroism) +2 on attacks, saves and skill checks
    Melee 2 talons +14 (1d8+7), bite +14 (1d6+7), foreclaws +10 (1d4+3)
    Power 2 talons +12 (1d8+11), bite +12 (1d6+11), foreclaws +8 (1d4+5)
    AC: 23 Loaded

    4 BS II -
    Deinonychus Same as above but add (Pounce, Scent)
    or
    Dire Tiger (Pounce, Scent) Large
    Speed 40 ft. Senses low-light vision, scent
    Str 26, Dex 10, Con, 16, Int 8, Wis 10, Cha 16
    CMB +18|+22 Grab (B+4,S+8,E+1,RQ+2,H+2,S+1) CMD 26 (B+4,Str+8,Dex+0,Def+1,RQ+2,+10,S+1)
    Melee 2 claws +15 (2d4+8 plus grab), bite +14 (2d6+8 plus grab)
    Power 2 claws +13 (2d4+12 plus grab), bite +12 (2d6+12 plus grab)
    AC: 23 Loaded
    Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
    Special Attacks: pounce, [rake (2 claws +15, 2d4+8)]

    5 BS III -
    Aurumvorax

    This last was tested today and the little bastard did very well.

    -Joshua

    Shadow Lodge

    Cool!

    Good to hear the Holy Amulet worked for you. It's sort of a must have I think for natural weapon users.

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