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Assume you have a character who been hit with a casting of Black Tentacles. They were successfully grappled, and now cannot move from that spot.
Before they break free, Wall of Stone is also cast. As per the last paragraph of the spell:
It is possible, but difficult, to trap mobile opponents within or under a wall of stone, provided the wall is shaped so it can hold the creatures. Creatures can avoid entrapment with successful Reflex saves.
Wall of Stone is cast in such a shape that it entirely encloses the Black Tentacles field, which the character is the centre of.
Being grappled doesn't prevent Reflex saves. Nothing about Black Tentacles does, RAW. But if someone made the Reflex save against the Wall... then what? It doesn't prevent the Wall from coming into existence around the Black Tentacles; it's just to avoid being inside the entrapping space. But Black Tentacles is supposed to prevent any movement until you beat the grapple.
So what happens? Does Wall of Stone lose the Reflex save somehow? Or if not, what happens on a successful save?
You are correct that they cannot move while grappled. A very strict reading of RAW seems to imply that they simply don't get a reflex save.
Personally I would allow them to make an immediate grapple check to break free and subsequent reflex to get out, but only if they were reasonably close to the edge. But that's just what I would houserule.
Quite a nasty combo. Make the black tentacles dazing for extra fun!
Actually, the master stroke of this combo was to cast Cloudkill after the Tentacles, but before the Wall. Truly brutal stuff. But anything that dangerous needs rules questions quashed long before you try it.
And this is why conjuration is one of the strongest schools of magic. You seem to be taking a leaf out of Treantmonk's wizard guide ;)
Yes, deadly indeed. Surprisingly bad versus front liners since it targets CMD and fort saves, but about half of front liners have bad reflexes, so if you can keep them in the area long enough it would eventually hit them.
I agree that it's a little vague in RAW, but my previous post is how I would handle it. Purely a houserule based on logic.
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Looking further, there are a number of ways this gets complicated. Paralyzed characters also get Reflex saves; not sure how that's supposed to work either. Normally even objects get Reflex saves, but this situation makes that nonsensical.
It feels like Wall of Stone is the problem. If a character cannot move, it shouldn't get a Reflex save against entrapment. Any spell like this (Forcecage also comes to mind) doesn't make sense otherwise.
Maybe you are able to twist or bend enough in the tentacles to avoid being trapped in the wall? It does seem hard to visualize.
Looking further, there are a number of ways this gets complicated. Paralyzed characters also get Reflex saves; not sure how that's supposed to work either. Normally even objects get Reflex saves, but this situation makes that nonsensical.
It feels like Wall of Stone is the problem. If a character cannot move, it shouldn't get a Reflex save against entrapment. Any spell like this (Forcecage also comes to mind) doesn't make sense otherwise.
some people don't allow paralyzed characters Reflex saves, as the condition prevents them from moving (not capital M moving... but actually using limbs etc).
In any case, DEX 0 is a -5 to your saves, so... that sucks.
I've seen it justified as "even objects get Reflex saves, so they must also factor for luck". Agreed on the -5 Dex mod, but some weird characters could succeed. Hell, a natural 20 on a save is an auto-success.
But if a successful save implies movement, it shouldn't work of the subject can't move. Doubly so if they can't move because they're anchored in place.
