| Vigeous |
I have been playing various RPGs off and on for awhile, but never got all that serious. Anytime I in in the DM chair, I just kind of wing it and let things proceed in a pretty straightforward manner. But some things have always bothered me. Can you guys help me out with any of these?
1. If the adventures make a bit of a stir in the front of a dungeon, why don't the denizens of the dungeon simply form up and swarm them en masse? Obviously various contexts would make this less like. Rival factions, mindless creatures, etc... but if your dungeon has a lot of smart creatures on the same side, you'd think one of them would be like "Hey. Guys. There is a group up do-gooders out there kicking some serious ass. I think we are in a lot of trouble. Let's gather everyone and go effing kill them!"
2. How do you avoid situations where the NPC has an obvious choice for how to win a fight? Like a dragon who can fly. Why doesn't it just fly around and avoid the adventurers while its breath weapon recharges? Obviously, if the party can fly or shoot it, this gets easier, but I can see a pretty meager flying creature being a really difficult (not to mention really obnoxious to run) encounter.
3. This might relate to 1, but what about super-cautious parties? I had a group once who would search every room. Listen at every door and have this standard door-opening procedure with readied arrows, tower shields up, etc... We saved some time by them saying "Okay. We do our thing", but I felt it kinda ruined some of the fun.
4. In contrast to 3, how do I let them find secret doors and traps?
a. Do I roll automatic checks for them? Seems like it would be hard to notice certain things just by being perceptive.
b. Let them search manually? All of a sudden they are searching every damn room, corridor and broom closet for secret treasure. maybe this makes them take extra time.. but if the dungeon denizens aren't getting ready for a full-on ambush (see 1.), why would they really be under any kind of time pressure? Maybe they have a deadline, but that gets old after being re-used too many times
c. There can be clues to say "There is a trap/secret here", but that also gets a little old. How many ways can you say "The dust seems less thick by that section of wall" before you are just saying "Make a search check"
Anyway. Sorry if these questions sounds dumb. Anyone have some advice on how to deal with these issues?
| DigMarx |
Depending on the layout of the dungeon and the Perception modifiers of the denizens, it may be impossible for them to hear fighting going on. Sure, the base DC to hear the sounds of a battle is -10, but then factor in distance (+1 per 10'), doors (+5 per door) and walls (+10 per foot of thickness) and distraction (+5). Over a significant distance it's hardly a sure thing. On the other hand, PCs who kick down doors and blast fireballs everywhere rather than tackle the dungeon tactically probably warrant a dogpile every now and then.
The rest of your points just come back to the idea that you've got to know your players and measure their skills against the challenges you're throwing at them. Use the encounters and situations you've mentioned sparsely to help them "grow". As you point out in #3, groups develop skill sets to help them tackle typical obstacles. Flying, incorporeal, regenerating, and high DR monsters are also typical obstacles warranting their own method of approach by a thoughtful party, as are traps and secret/hidden doors. Use your tools as a DM to guide and encourage your group of players to increase their level of play.
One specific point: other than dwarves with stonecunning and rogues with the Trap Spotter talent, PCs must declare searches to find traps and/or secret doors.
| Some call me Tim |
You hit on some of things that GMs gloss over and makes the the world seem less real.
Sure enemies should be smart. Just like the PCs. Now in regards to item 1, sure if there is some coordination between monsters of various groups, setting off alarms should attract attention. But you also don't want to trigger a night's worth of encounters at once because your PCs will be D-E-A-D. If the PCs just waltz right into the goblin kings palace, well they deserve to be killed off. But encounters generally shouldn't be laid out as to trigger multiple ones at once.
Sometimes it is lazy mapmaking or just trying to save space but encounters are sometimes crammed together when they shouldn't be.
About item 2, you should be throwing dragons at PCs that can't take them. You don't want to run something that will annoy them. But by the same token to make it so you play to their strengths. Send a lesser flying creature to show them how vulnerable they are. They should then up their game in response.
Items 3 and 4 are similar, lots of groups have standing orders about checking everything. This is where the ol' wandering monster encounter pays off. Back to my initial point, you want to make the worlds seem real, one of the best ways is that the world isn't static. The PCs waste a lot of time will allow for their dirty work to be discover and the alarm raised. Now I don't mean throw everything at them at once, but now the enemy has readied ambushes, spells, added extra guards and the PCs won't find anyone sleeping. Be careful, don't punish PCs for being prudent, just when they take exceptionally long.
As far as "we do our thing" comes to open a door, a group of PCs (just like a SWAT team) has a standard operating procedure. Some groups like to short-hand the set up to save time. You know less role-playing more ROLL-playing. That is a personal issue between players and GM. From a GM perspective you can just remember what their procedure is but encourage the players use different language to describe it. Let them say something like, "As soon as Raistlin is in place, I give a quick nod and crack upon the door." Just assume they ready arrows, get shields up, give a quick listen at the door, a quick look for traps etc.
I don't automatically give rolls for traps that aren't in the obvious places (i.e. I assume PC will check chests and doors but only one PC one check) unless some calls for it. I also don't assume the PCs will have their blinders on either. Give a lower DC perception check to notice that misplaced dust. Wise PCs will look at the layout of a dungeon/building and note architectural differences in the layout on the map. "Hey what is this big blank spot." or "Hey this long corridor looks like a great place for a lightning bolt trap."
| Sarandosil |
1)Depends on the dungeon, but if it's full of intelligent enemies who know you are coming, you should expect an ambush at the first choke-point.
Some players might like the more straightforward normal hack and slash way more, there's preference involved. But if you're going for realism or immersion then yeah, there's no reason to go easy on this. I run things this way. It has the added benefits of making stealth more attractive in a game that usually penalizes it, and it knocks a sense of humility into the players when they know they can't just waltz into every enemy compound and win. It makes it so that running away from combat is something you consider. It opens up possible storylines like trying to take down an evil organization over a longer period of time because you know you wouldn't survive it if you just tried a direct attack on their lair.
2)I do this too. They can run away from the fight if they can't deal with the tactic, basically.
Diego Rossi
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Some player get the idea of how the game world should work by the computer games where, if you don't enter in the detection radius of the NPC you can do anything and they will not react. Generally in pen and paper games we do the reverse.
NPC react to what they perceive, grouping up, moving around, taking the time to cast buff spells and so on.
The lazy, overconfident, cat like rakshasha king can leave his guard to take care of the players for a long time while he play with them.
The ogre king that need to show his prowess in battle to keep his subjects in line will gather his guard and come to fight them at soon as the alarm is raised.
And the dragon will fly and use his breath weapon or do a fly-by and snatch one of the PC to later drop him from a great height.
Every creature has a preferred tactic for wick it is well suited and will try to use it as much as possible.
| John Kretzer |
Ok...
1) I have done this before. Usualy though they just set up differently in the first room...with some other reenforcement from various parts of the dungeon. Also related to this if the PCs leave a dungeon to rest...I have been know to have the creatures in the dungeon to send out attack forces to attack their camp....reorganized their defenses...even once I had the monsters abandon the dungeon completely. Just follow what make sense.
2) Yes I have used those tactics...it is up to the PCs the recognize them and either overcome them...or to flee.
3) I usualy just go with they do their SOP in these regards. Though if you write out the dungeon before hand you can take this into account when writting it out....like what exactly will the PCs hear when listening at the door...etc.
4) Let them determine when they are looking for traps or secret doors
| Cathedron |
#1. I've done that a few times. I got sick of traditional dungeon set-ups and everyone metagaming the expectation of a gradual increase in enemy CR until a final boss. I had the group run right into the dragon as he was about to leave his lair. Mix it up, I say.
#2. I don't avoid that situation. That's inherent to what makes that creature challenging. They need to deal with it and be creative. Of course, the DM must then be prepared to deal with their creativity... (puts on sunglasses) on-the-fly.
#3. While they "do their thing" at the door, have them get ambushed from behind by something using dimension door or whatever.
#4b. To spice things up, if they start searching meticulously, have some baddies rush them. Tell them what they found and then make them roll Initiative before they can do anything about it.
| brassbaboon |
#1. The traditional "dungeon crawl" setup is so completely unrealistic and silly that worrying about how a bunch of evil, vicious creatures would interact upon the visit of an adventuring party pales into insignificance compared the the likelihood of a bunch of steadily more powerful evil creatures living in room after room with no visible ecological support for them in the first place. I avoid this issue by not having traditional dungeon crawls, and instead trying to build a reasonably self-sustaining environment where the dungeon is no different than a rain forest in that it has some means of sustaining its ecology. Usually that means that the denizens of the dungeon are not crammed together in a series of successive rooms waiting for adventurers to come kill them.
#2. It is the GM's job to design a campaign which allows the PC party to meet and defeat various challenges. In my campaigns monsters fight according to their intelligence, as well as I can manage it. Flying creatures take advantage of their ability to fly. However, it is unlikely that the first flying enemy any of my parties run into will be a potentially TPKing dragon. Usually they will encounter something like a couple of hippogriffs or something else that will reveal their weakness against flight. If they then decide to continue on without doing anything about that weakness, then when they eventually encounter the dragon, things might go badly for them.
#3. As a GM I try to play to the party's abilities and habits. I don't require the player to say "I check the square in front of me for traps." I assume that the trap-finding skill-monkey is doing his job and let the dice work out the results. So in general that means if there are traps around, they will get a roll to find them, even if nobody says they are looking. On occasion, if the circumstances are such that it is unlikely that they would look for a trap (fleeing from a rampaging dragon, for example) then they would not get a roll. But for the most part I don't make the party call out all their preparation. I usually as each party to tell me their standard operating procedure for different situations, and then unless they tell me differently, I assume they are doing that. One thing that really bugs me is if a GM says "Well, nobody said they were searching the body, so nobody got that sweet magic sword I had back there." Duh. The party is always going to check for magic weapons on anyone they defeat. Punishing the characters because the players were distracted is just silly.
#4. See #3 Also, I give clues to the party, and usually I hit them over the head with them. I don't try to be subtle. If I want them to investigate some tracks, then they will see the tracks. I make "secret rolls" that are purely bogus, I've already decided the rogue is going to see the tracks, but I'll make a die roll anyway, just for the ambiance it creates. I also make lots of totally random rolls anyway, just to keep them guessing.
Krome
|
1. Depends upon the dungeon design and the occupants. Assuming all intelligent creatures (or mostly intelligent -there may be an elf in there after all), then it is very possible that there will be a choke point set up with some way to sound an alarm. Also, what are the occupants DOING? Some will be asleep, some will be working, some will be eating, some will be playing cards or whatever. If the dungeon is designed as a fortress then there is a likely chance that an alarm is raised and a group defense is mounted.
How do you handle that with your players? You run that scenario once of them coming around the corner to face two dozen orcs, and then they start to flee and find another two dozen orcs have snuck up behind them. Take them prisoner. Make them escape. And I guarantee you, unless they just "don't get it" their habits will change.
2. You don't avoid the situation, the players do. They want to fight a dragon, but lack flight and meaningful ranged attacks, then you let the dragon fly around them taunting them (Red Dragons like to play with the food). Have the dragon trap them in walls of flame. Make them figure out how to escape. They may need to sacrifice someone. As a result the players will learn not to do that! lol
3. Overly cautious groups often have some fun just being paranoid. Reward their paranoia in unusual ways. Put some really nasty, uber-deadly traps in the dungeon. They will be excited their paranoia paid off. Eventually they will miss one and and you will have fun running an uber-deadly trap on them. The idea is to have fun. If they enjoy it, run with it.
4a. I normally assume that an adventurer is taking 10 on Perception checks as a default. They are paranoid characters often in dangerous situations. I try to keep a sheet on each character and one of the things I record is their Perception +10. IF what they are searching for has a DC of less than Perception +10 then I allow them to find it without rolls.
Keep in mind that if the DC is low enough to find that easily then there is likely to be some faults in the method used to hide it. The picture is askew, the plaster on the wall has a recession that just shows an outline in an area, there is a slight breeze. Also remember that people have intuition. Sometimes they Perceive things and don't understand what it is that alerts them. They just know something doesn't feel right. That alone should be good enough in many situations with a low DC.
4b. If they are not under any time pressure and they are enjoying searching every door and every five-foot space then let them as long as everyone has fun. If you are not having fun talk to them about it. Now for me, like I said I use that Perception +10 as a default. IF that score is within 5 of the required DC I "alert" the players there is something about the room that catches their attention. That gets them to making the rolls themselves and actively looking.
A lot of your problems is based upon their previous experience I think. You said you never were a serious GM and tended to improvise a lot. So they are used to that and taking advantage of it where they can. Change their own habits by changing yours. Prepare a dungeon in advance. Plan out what is going to happen based upon your own familiarity of the players.
Let me give you an example: My buddy wanted to design a dungeon to be explored by some mutual friends. He wanted my help. This was going to be a big underground lair beneath a major city.
We designed the room for the final fight first. We made it big so there was room to maneuver in. But we placed deadly obstacles in the way as well. We made them earn every square forward.
But my favorite bit was my solution to how to keep the PCs from trying to keep the dungeon as a base of operations. I told him to put in a grate on the floor with a tunnel leading somewhere unknown. When they lift the grate it triggers a trap that floods the chamber. The PCs are forced to flee down the tunnel just ahead of the flood until they get to the sewers.
He said "They won't be that stupid."
I laughed. They were. It happened exactly the way I wanted it to.
That was based off of knowing my group. I had no doubt they would get curious and forget to check for traps.